Short-Throw Shifter
05-25-2011, 02:02 PM
#47
Instructor
Thanks for the reply Lizard, am sold. Email in process to Rog.
As for the snipe about S2000 not being a better car... lol The two are completely different animals, its not fair to compare and I now have a 928 so enough said right?
As for the snipe about S2000 not being a better car... lol The two are completely different animals, its not fair to compare and I now have a 928 so enough said right?
05-25-2011, 02:51 PM
#48
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My brother bought one right after they came out, still has it. It is now 10+ years old, still looks brand new......and he has never spent a DIME on it, beyond oil changes AND a few sets of new tires....so "better" can mean different things to different people.
AND YES, the S2000 shifter is the shizzle.
AND NO, I wouldn't buy one, or trade any 928 I have owned in the last 10 years for one. BUT, you gotta give Honda their due, it does exactly what it was designed for VERY well...with no drama and will mostly likely do it trouble free for a long long time.
But, in the end it is still a Honda Car...not that there is anything wrong with that...LOL
Funny, I just remembered, my first car was a Honda...it was a "hand me down" from my brother when I was 13-14 or so.
Get your tissues ready.. you are gonna laugh so hard you are going to cry.
Honda 600 Sedan...crap, at least my brother could have gotten the "Z coupe" instead of that thing ..grrrrr
Due to my size, even at 13-14, I had to remove the rear seats, made custom brackets for it to move the front seats back over a foot so I could drive it!!
OH, and the "Short Shifter" on it was mounted on the center of the dashboard...and it SUCKED!
OH, and if this "confession" goes beyond Rennlist...heads are gonna roll....
I did redeem myself by totalling it 2 weeks after I got my drivers license...right in front of my Mom. Those things don't hold up well when you crash them into the side of a late 60s model Chevy Pickup...OUCH! Truck pulled out right in front of me, and my mom was the next car behind the truck getting ready to pull out watching it happen, ironic!
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05-25-2011, 03:08 PM
#49
Instructor
What are you talking about, it looks awesome. Plus if it broke down you could take it home on the bus with you 
My first car was an 850cc 1970's Mini. I remember it fondly, but I would never ever want to drive it again......
My first car was an 850cc 1970's Mini. I remember it fondly, but I would never ever want to drive it again......
05-25-2011, 03:49 PM
#50
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Even crazier, I just found out 2 days ago that the same Pinto is still alive and well and is usually at a Hot Rod Show every Saturday an hour from me. Haven't seen it in approx 35 years!!! Making plans to go see it soon.
But, concerning the Honda 600, with in a little over a year I had redeemed myself some what... and had to make the choice of which one of these to drive to High School every day... (not my actual cars, but same models etc.)
66 Sunbeam Tiger with 289 Hi-Po...
73 Mustang Mach 1... (mine was red)
..and for the Sunny warm school days, this was my typical choice.
Sorry for the hijack, back to shifter stuff..
This is so much fun! I suggest we start a topic about "my first rides"! 
05-25-2011, 05:11 PM
#52
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Great idea, TAG , your it :-)
Back to shifters, here is a short chronology of "Short Shifters" for 928s (to the best of my recollection)
Cutting off "X" inches for a short shifter, probably been around since the first 928s hit the streets. - But as mentioned, "Short" meaning length only
Around the early 90s after the 89GT came out, it was a popular option for those with late model trannys 985-up) to install the factory "GT shifter". Especially since they were less than $50 at the time - Again just a shortened length only.
Around this same time (possibly before) one of the guys at Performance Products passed on info and measurements to 928ers to easily relocate one of the pivot points making it the first true "short throw" shifter. This was done by many 928ers over the years.
A few years later, mid to late 90s?? Mark Grasser made a couple of steel prototypes of this short throw shifter, for both tranny types, one he used on his 79 928, and one for me to try out in one of my later trannys. This was a short length and true short throw 928 shifter
We were using this for a while and Mark was just starting to ramp up production when C.S. Mo ??? came out with a billet aluminum version pretty much exactly like Mark's, but made of aluminum and due to being CNC'd the tolerances were so tight, it eliminated the need for the springs and plastic "divider".
At some point in time (don't know the whole story) someone else started making this same version and is the commonly known "short shifter" sold by most Vendors even today.
There were numorous other approvements used and/or tried by some (mostly racers) by replacing the front cup/ball with a rod end or heim joint type connection Then the next notable evolution was Carl's "Precision Shifter Ball Cup", which was and still is a very clever design!
Hopefully someone with better memory can fill in some of the blanks, but that should bring us up to where we are now.
Cheers,
Back to shifters, here is a short chronology of "Short Shifters" for 928s (to the best of my recollection)
Cutting off "X" inches for a short shifter, probably been around since the first 928s hit the streets. - But as mentioned, "Short" meaning length only
Around the early 90s after the 89GT came out, it was a popular option for those with late model trannys 985-up) to install the factory "GT shifter". Especially since they were less than $50 at the time - Again just a shortened length only.
Around this same time (possibly before) one of the guys at Performance Products passed on info and measurements to 928ers to easily relocate one of the pivot points making it the first true "short throw" shifter. This was done by many 928ers over the years.
A few years later, mid to late 90s?? Mark Grasser made a couple of steel prototypes of this short throw shifter, for both tranny types, one he used on his 79 928, and one for me to try out in one of my later trannys. This was a short length and true short throw 928 shifter
We were using this for a while and Mark was just starting to ramp up production when C.S. Mo ??? came out with a billet aluminum version pretty much exactly like Mark's, but made of aluminum and due to being CNC'd the tolerances were so tight, it eliminated the need for the springs and plastic "divider".
At some point in time (don't know the whole story) someone else started making this same version and is the commonly known "short shifter" sold by most Vendors even today.
There were numorous other approvements used and/or tried by some (mostly racers) by replacing the front cup/ball with a rod end or heim joint type connection Then the next notable evolution was Carl's "Precision Shifter Ball Cup", which was and still is a very clever design!
Hopefully someone with better memory can fill in some of the blanks, but that should bring us up to where we are now.
Cheers,
Last edited by DR; 05-25-2011 at 08:27 PM.
05-25-2011, 08:26 PM
#53
CS Mo. Wow. Old name, from long ago.
05-25-2011, 08:39 PM
#54
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Funny, can't see how anyone that has driven an S2000 more than a few hours AND kept it above 5k rpms all the time..could say it is not as good or better..in it's own way.
My brother bought one right after they came out, still has it. It is now 10+ years old, still looks brand new......and he has never spent a DIME on it, beyond oil changes AND a few sets of new tires....so "better" can mean different things to different people.
AND YES, the S2000 shifter is the shizzle.
My brother bought one right after they came out, still has it. It is now 10+ years old, still looks brand new......and he has never spent a DIME on it, beyond oil changes AND a few sets of new tires....so "better" can mean different things to different people.
AND YES, the S2000 shifter is the shizzle.
05-25-2011, 09:02 PM
#55
I owned an S2000 for about three years or so. I really loved that car - sometimes. Other times I hated it like the devil hates white. Drive it every day for full daily driver mileages. The end of its life came going *** backwards on a twisty mountain road into on-coming traffic.
I tracked the car as well. So I think I can speak from experience since I tracked an S2000 and have had 9 928s.
1) The S2000 does shift very well. Its the synchros that are my concern. At 100k, redline shifting as much as I do on a 928, they were going. 2nd was a but persnickity, and 3rd was making me wonder. If you add power, I don't know how long that box would last. 150lbft is not alot of hold. 300... eh. I feel much better about the 928 shifter because I am heavy handed, and it deals with me well.
2) The handling on those cars is very precise - and spooky. Lowered or not, wider tires or not, the balance on that car was such that, with the combined effect of electric steering - I never felt like I knew if what I was feeling was real. I knew I was feeling SOMETHING like the road - but I was not sure if it was "high fidelity". Grip levels were not available through the steering feeling - only your *** on the seat could tell, and that's not best practice. I always felt like I was guessing. "Grip. Grip. Grip. Wait, that was no grip" As I am spinning backwards into the rocks at willow springs.
3) Robust in many ways, the body was stiff and the structure imbued confidence. The accident was quite bad but I was fine except my head hit the top supports. Rear was trashed, but did not get into the passenger area.
NOT robust in suspension strength, hubs, or engine longevity if you truly use it at its peak power. Oil tests proved this to me. Wear at 90k were similar to the wear levels of a 300k 928 engine.
4) I am 6' 3" and 250 or so. I basically had to fold myself in and out of that car and it caused issues with my back. It was so uncomfortable for such a otherwise refined honda it was shocking. I drove it back and forth to Sacramento and I was YELPING in pain on the way back from the bumps on hwy 5. I was sore for days after driving it for more than an hour each way.
5) Good and bad: Nothing happened until 6500rpm.
I tracked the car as well. So I think I can speak from experience since I tracked an S2000 and have had 9 928s.
1) The S2000 does shift very well. Its the synchros that are my concern. At 100k, redline shifting as much as I do on a 928, they were going. 2nd was a but persnickity, and 3rd was making me wonder. If you add power, I don't know how long that box would last. 150lbft is not alot of hold. 300... eh. I feel much better about the 928 shifter because I am heavy handed, and it deals with me well.
2) The handling on those cars is very precise - and spooky. Lowered or not, wider tires or not, the balance on that car was such that, with the combined effect of electric steering - I never felt like I knew if what I was feeling was real. I knew I was feeling SOMETHING like the road - but I was not sure if it was "high fidelity". Grip levels were not available through the steering feeling - only your *** on the seat could tell, and that's not best practice. I always felt like I was guessing. "Grip. Grip. Grip. Wait, that was no grip" As I am spinning backwards into the rocks at willow springs.
3) Robust in many ways, the body was stiff and the structure imbued confidence. The accident was quite bad but I was fine except my head hit the top supports. Rear was trashed, but did not get into the passenger area.
NOT robust in suspension strength, hubs, or engine longevity if you truly use it at its peak power. Oil tests proved this to me. Wear at 90k were similar to the wear levels of a 300k 928 engine.
4) I am 6' 3" and 250 or so. I basically had to fold myself in and out of that car and it caused issues with my back. It was so uncomfortable for such a otherwise refined honda it was shocking. I drove it back and forth to Sacramento and I was YELPING in pain on the way back from the bumps on hwy 5. I was sore for days after driving it for more than an hour each way.
5) Good and bad: Nothing happened until 6500rpm.
Funny, can't see how anyone that has driven an S2000 more than a few hours AND kept it above 5k rpms all the time..could say it is not as good or better..in it's own way.
My brother bought one right after they came out, still has it. It is now 10+ years old, still looks brand new......and he has never spent a DIME on it, beyond oil changes AND a few sets of new tires....so "better" can mean different things to different people.
AND YES, the S2000 shifter is the shizzle.
AND NO, I wouldn't buy one, or trade any 928 I have owned in the last 10 years for one. BUT, you gotta give Honda their due, it does exactly what it was designed for VERY well...with no drama and will mostly likely do it trouble free for a long long time.
My brother bought one right after they came out, still has it. It is now 10+ years old, still looks brand new......and he has never spent a DIME on it, beyond oil changes AND a few sets of new tires....so "better" can mean different things to different people.
AND YES, the S2000 shifter is the shizzle.
AND NO, I wouldn't buy one, or trade any 928 I have owned in the last 10 years for one. BUT, you gotta give Honda their due, it does exactly what it was designed for VERY well...with no drama and will mostly likely do it trouble free for a long long time.
05-27-2011, 01:47 AM
#56
Rennlist Member
Rog,
Thank you for jumping in here! Maybe you should finally make a posting about that shifter
Jadz and Landseer,
Yes that is the bushing I am speaking of, and as you can see from Landseer's picture, that is one that is bad. The outer rubber doesnt fail. But there is a plastic sleeve that goes inside it which fails.
GlenL,
You can even take your stock one out, and add half an inch (stock is around 1" centerline between pivot holes), between the pivot holes. I did this many times and you end up with the same short shifter as supplied by 928intl etc.
The shifter I designed though is much different from stock. It has a much more connected feel (more like a gated shifter). And the throw is drastically reduced.
Thank you for jumping in here! Maybe you should finally make a posting about that shifter
Jadz and Landseer,
Yes that is the bushing I am speaking of, and as you can see from Landseer's picture, that is one that is bad. The outer rubber doesnt fail. But there is a plastic sleeve that goes inside it which fails.
GlenL,
You can even take your stock one out, and add half an inch (stock is around 1" centerline between pivot holes), between the pivot holes. I did this many times and you end up with the same short shifter as supplied by 928intl etc.
The shifter I designed though is much different from stock. It has a much more connected feel (more like a gated shifter). And the throw is drastically reduced.
Is there an improved version of this rubber bushing with plastic sleeve or just a new one from the P-shop?
05-27-2011, 08:13 PM
#57
Nordschleife Master
There is just a new one. As I said, requires the TT to be removed, and is a pricey bugger too! Last I checked over $120.
My new design eliminates that part so I have ignored it since then
My new design eliminates that part so I have ignored it since then
05-28-2011, 01:37 AM
#58
Rennlist Member
05-28-2011, 02:36 AM
#59
Rennlist Member
Sorry, a lot has been written on the short shifter already. As I understand right now, the shifter that does away with the springs and fits precisely over the attachments on the shift rods and therefore the intermediate bearing on the front shift rod is no longer needed? Will this work on a 78? I am not particularly interested in a shorter shift but I am very interested in a more precise shifting. I have new delrin bushings at the rear coupler and a new ballcup (OEM) at the front.
05-28-2011, 03:54 AM
#60
Nordschleife Master
Ad,
The new shifter design works on all years.
It completely eliminates the front shift rod. It has a new pivot point which is attached to the TT tunnel.
It is MUCH more precise, and is very short. (though for my track car I have a 2:1 ratio lever arm which reduces the shifter throw another 50% over the 65% of the new design!
The new shifter design works on all years.
It completely eliminates the front shift rod. It has a new pivot point which is attached to the TT tunnel.
It is MUCH more precise, and is very short. (though for my track car I have a 2:1 ratio lever arm which reduces the shifter throw another 50% over the 65% of the new design!