How would a 928 do at NASCAR
03-06-2011, 09:13 AM
#46
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Interesting to see former Nascar chassis with lesser engines competing in SCCA club racing a decade ago. They kicked on otherwise-competitive gt1 cars at the time. It was a really ea$y way to get an almost-turnkey race ride. You could make it a Camaro or whatever with skin changes. I don't remember any 928's
mixing it up in that class, but that may just be a memory issue.
mixing it up in that class, but that may just be a memory issue.
03-06-2011, 10:27 AM
#47
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don't take this place personally... everyone has big huevos on the internet. most of us have nothing else productive to do
03-06-2011, 10:46 AM
#48
Now I know what to tell my buddies about why Porsche uses a rubber belt in an interference engine. This is the best that I have seen this explained. Thank you.... Thanks to the OP as well. It might not have been a realistic question but I have learned quite a bit out of this thread. I feel it has been far from "useless".
I think the 4V 928 engine (highly modified) could match the pushrod engines at least for a while in terms of power as there is enough airflow to produce over 800 hp ( I have had heads flowed that would do over 375 cfm) but the new dedicated Nascar engines are very sophisticated in terms of their oiling and water flows. You would need $100K to build such an engine.
The reason I say that is because the GT3 FIA engine can produce the same hp per liter as the nascar engine and the heads that the 928 engine can use are very similar in design. Same included angle, valve sizes similar valve lifts etc.
You have to remember that the Nascar engines are designed to use carbs and the 928 engine throttle bodies so you will never get a apples to apples comparison.
A little tidbit on engine commonality
So where is the commonality between Nascar and the 928, well it is in the engine and common to the Dodge engine particurlary. First the timing drive, most teams use Jesel. These are precision mechanisms. Jesels uses a Gates belt, same as the 928 if you buy Genuine that is! According to Rob Remesi of Jesel, there is a number of advantages of this type of drive over gears or chains.
"The fibre reinforced belt is significantly stronger than a timing chain. At the same time , unlike a chain or gears the belt absorbs and reduces the amount of harmonics that is transfered from the crankshaft to the camshaft. This allows the camshaft to rotate more smoothly calming the valvetrain componants."
"A timing chain or gear drive must be constantly bathed in oil to properly function. At high RPM the parasitic drag created by the componants revolving through the oil results in an overall horsepower loss. Due to the fact that the belt is run externally and requires no lubrication, there is no horsepower loss"
The commonality of the Dodge engine is that it also has an open deck. Wheres I had considered this to be a disadvantage, certainly in the case of a NA engine it appears to be of an advantage. Evernham engines runs these thin wall cast iron blocks uncoated. (Some Nascar teams insert a Nicasil Sleeve) McArdle notes,"That having the 20 head studs isolated from the cylinders minimises the danger of bore distortion. He remarks that Evernham have found hot honing to be of no benefit due to the low levels of distortion.
The reason I say that is because the GT3 FIA engine can produce the same hp per liter as the nascar engine and the heads that the 928 engine can use are very similar in design. Same included angle, valve sizes similar valve lifts etc.
You have to remember that the Nascar engines are designed to use carbs and the 928 engine throttle bodies so you will never get a apples to apples comparison.
A little tidbit on engine commonality
So where is the commonality between Nascar and the 928, well it is in the engine and common to the Dodge engine particurlary. First the timing drive, most teams use Jesel. These are precision mechanisms. Jesels uses a Gates belt, same as the 928 if you buy Genuine that is! According to Rob Remesi of Jesel, there is a number of advantages of this type of drive over gears or chains.
"The fibre reinforced belt is significantly stronger than a timing chain. At the same time , unlike a chain or gears the belt absorbs and reduces the amount of harmonics that is transfered from the crankshaft to the camshaft. This allows the camshaft to rotate more smoothly calming the valvetrain componants."
"A timing chain or gear drive must be constantly bathed in oil to properly function. At high RPM the parasitic drag created by the componants revolving through the oil results in an overall horsepower loss. Due to the fact that the belt is run externally and requires no lubrication, there is no horsepower loss"
The commonality of the Dodge engine is that it also has an open deck. Wheres I had considered this to be a disadvantage, certainly in the case of a NA engine it appears to be of an advantage. Evernham engines runs these thin wall cast iron blocks uncoated. (Some Nascar teams insert a Nicasil Sleeve) McArdle notes,"That having the 20 head studs isolated from the cylinders minimises the danger of bore distortion. He remarks that Evernham have found hot honing to be of no benefit due to the low levels of distortion.
03-06-2011, 10:53 AM
#49
Race Car
It really amazes me how some 928 "facts" mysteriously appear on this forum.
http://transaxle.homeip.net/928/928S/AFN/Index.htm
http://transaxle.homeip.net/928/928S...8384/Index.htm
http://transaxle.homeip.net/928/928S...cord/Index.htm
http://transaxle.homeip.net/928/928s/Nardo/Index.htm
http://transaxle.homeip.net/928/928GTS/Nardo/Index.htm
With all of the inherent timing belt failures, water pump failures, electrical failures, rod bearing failures, and all of the oil being pumped up into the heads, the guys running those cars must have been really quick with their pit stops, to fix all of those things every lap or two, and still end up with the results that they got.
http://transaxle.homeip.net/928/928S/AFN/Index.htm
http://transaxle.homeip.net/928/928S...8384/Index.htm
http://transaxle.homeip.net/928/928S...cord/Index.htm
http://transaxle.homeip.net/928/928s/Nardo/Index.htm
http://transaxle.homeip.net/928/928GTS/Nardo/Index.htm
With all of the inherent timing belt failures, water pump failures, electrical failures, rod bearing failures, and all of the oil being pumped up into the heads, the guys running those cars must have been really quick with their pit stops, to fix all of those things every lap or two, and still end up with the results that they got.
Also, most of those are 16-valve 928's, which arguably are much less likely to grenade. The S4 record on the salt flats didn't really run the car all that long, the only one I am really wondering about is the GTS one, although it was not mentioned what (if any) modifications it had. It does seem to have abnormally high front ride height, which I would think would exacerbate the oil condition. Or maybe... they needed it that high because they fitted a much taller/deeper oil pan? Or picture just taken after car was jacked up? It would be interesting to find out.Dan
'91 928GT S/C
475hp/460lb.ft
03-06-2011, 11:35 AM
#51
Some of you were doing too much of this last night.
03-06-2011, 11:39 AM
#53
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03-06-2011, 11:48 AM
#54
03-06-2011, 11:58 AM
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03-06-2011, 12:30 PM
#56
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They are pretty neat cars, handle well, great engines, ****ty location for window and ignition switches.
I drove a 9000 for years and loved it.
I drove a 9000 for years and loved it.
http://www.saabhistory.com/2007/05/1...long-run-1986/
Damn..did not know that.
Says something about (1)marketing and (2)styling...that ive never HEARD of this #1, and #2...I still wouldnt want one...even with this distinction.
Damn..did not know that.
Says something about (1)marketing and (2)styling...that ive never HEARD of this #1, and #2...I still wouldnt want one...even with this distinction.
03-06-2011, 12:44 PM
#57
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I guess there appears to be a 928 "secret". The ones blowing up just going down the autobahn obviously don't know it, while others that got the results above did. 944's may share this too. In one of those links, it says "minor modifications", I wonder... maybe it really is Amsoil Also, most of those are 16-valve 928's, which arguably are much less likely to grenade. The S4 record on the salt flats didn't really run the car all that long, the only one I am really wondering about is the GTS one, although it was not mentioned what (if any) modifications it had. It does seem to have abnormally high front ride height, which I would think would exacerbate the oil condition. Or maybe... they needed it that high because they fitted a much taller/deeper oil pan? Or picture just taken after car was jacked up? It would be interesting to find out.
Also, most of those are 16-valve 928's, which arguably are much less likely to grenade. The S4 record on the salt flats didn't really run the car all that long, the only one I am really wondering about is the GTS one, although it was not mentioned what (if any) modifications it had. It does seem to have abnormally high front ride height, which I would think would exacerbate the oil condition. Or maybe... they needed it that high because they fitted a much taller/deeper oil pan? Or picture just taken after car was jacked up? It would be interesting to find out.Not to mention it looks exactly like every other 928 that was just set down after lifting the front end.
As for the salt flat car, sure it wasn't a 24 hour test, it does take a while to run a 928 up to 171mph, especially at that altitude. They had to make two passes on top of how many test runs that came before the record attempt.
03-06-2011, 12:48 PM
#58
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It is perhaps of more interest to compare how Tony Stewart will perform this summer when he drives a McLaren F1 car.........assuming he can get in the thing 
To be fair to the 928 it should be compared to cars of the same era.....thats where it really out shines the competition.
The 928 was also compared to an F1 car...........it didnt quite measure up:
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/94731/...s_ford_sierra/
To be fair to the 928 it should be compared to cars of the same era.....thats where it really out shines the competition.
The 928 was also compared to an F1 car...........it didnt quite measure up:
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/94731/...s_ford_sierra/
03-06-2011, 01:11 PM
#59
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Tony started in open wheel cars and from what I've seen he's lost quite a bit of weight. Him and Jeff Gordon could have had a rather successful open wheel career (dare I say a stab at F1...) if it were not for the super high paychecks from Nascar that were dangled in front of them.
03-06-2011, 02:59 PM
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I guess there appears to be a 928 "secret". The ones blowing up just going down the autobahn obviously don't know it, while others that got the results above did. 944's may share this too. In one of those links, it says "minor modifications", I wonder... maybe it really is Amsoil Also, most of those are 16-valve 928's, which arguably are much less likely to grenade. The S4 record on the salt flats didn't really run the car all that long, the only one I am really wondering about is the GTS one, although it was not mentioned what (if any) modifications it had. It does seem to have abnormally high front ride height, which I would think would exacerbate the oil condition. Or maybe... they needed it that high because they fitted a much taller/deeper oil pan? Or picture just taken after car was jacked up? It would be interesting to find out.
Dan
'91 928GT S/C 475hp/460lb.ft
Also, most of those are 16-valve 928's, which arguably are much less likely to grenade. The S4 record on the salt flats didn't really run the car all that long, the only one I am really wondering about is the GTS one, although it was not mentioned what (if any) modifications it had. It does seem to have abnormally high front ride height, which I would think would exacerbate the oil condition. Or maybe... they needed it that high because they fitted a much taller/deeper oil pan? Or picture just taken after car was jacked up? It would be interesting to find out.Dan
'91 928GT S/C
475hp/460lb.ftI've been around 928s for a pretty good while now. There have been just as many or more 16v cars loose rod bearings on the track as 32v cars from what I've seen and heard. All of the ones that I know about were modified in some way. I've seen a lot of modifications done to these cars that were done without consideration as to what all may be affected. Many of the modifications I've seen done were just plain bad ideas. When a failure of some kind them occurs, the conclusion is that there's an inherent problem with the design of the car or engine, not anything to do with the modification that they did. I've seen some people repeatedly break things over and over again, ignoring good advice, and continuing to follow bad.
From plenty of experience, I absolutely know that there are some people who will continue to believe that all tracked 928s loose rod bearings, and have all of the other issues that seem to be taken as fact. I know of several that have been tracked for years, and have yet to loose a rod bearing, timing belt, water pump, etc. I've also seen some not make it more than two laps before coming apart, after having been put together or modified by "experts".
One thing that's brought up in the local group is how advice has been given to people who lost engines, some multiple times, and the advice ignored. Instead they continued to listen to the same "experts" that they did in the past. Why? Because those guys have blown up engines, they know all about it! I guess that's one way of looking at it. I've been messing around with cars for 30+ years, and have no experience blowing up an engine yet, so I obviously don't know anything about it.
With some of the advice I've seen given, it's no wonder some people want to put Chevy engines in their car.
