ArthurPE

https://rennlist.com/forums/attachme...rs4-thrust.jpg

1-2 redline
2-3 redline
3-4 redline
4-5 ~7600 +/- HP peak
5-6 ~7600 +/- HP peak

this is what I 'said'
again, you are 'incorrect' in your science
and 'wrong' in your approach

assuming redline of ~ 8000 you say
1-2 4400???!!!
2-3 5500 (are you actually saying for max accel 2-3 should be short shifted at 5500???)
3-4 6100
4-5 6500
5-6 6700

mark kibort

What I was getting at, is if you are old, (like 95+) you might be a little forgetful, a little testy when pushed, and you might not have the patience to discuss this. thats how it seems, because I keep on asking you the same question, yet you dont answer it. you claim "im wrong" yet dont provide ANY proof.

for example, lets just say youre right for a second. where have you proven me wrong? how is using HP curves for shift points inaccurate, or can provide "incorrect" answers?

If I have proven myself wrong, as you say, how. tell me! you talk in riddles, you avoid the question and dont comprehend the questions. The reason I ask the question of your age, is because if you cant understand the question, dont listen to answers, you could have a medical age related issue that I am not appreciating. Remember when you kept on repeating yourself that Watt had nothing to do with electricity, yet I said that "he was mistakenly known for the "watt" in the electricity world, though he was a mechanical guy" you said it several more times after that, trying to poke fun at me for saying the contrary. Its things like that, that make me wonder if you are all there or make me think I should speak M-o-r-e S-l-o-w-l-y.

you also keep on bringing up the HP-seconds. why, we put that to bed a thread ago. Im not talking about it, but you are. this thread is about shift points using a hp curve or thrust curves. HP curves work just as well.

do this, show an example, a Hp curve where my method falls down.
If I am wrong, I truely want to know why. So far, you are just on a rant, poking fun and not making a bit of sense. the question is simple.

You have been proved dead wrong on YOUR method of shift points. why, because your method incorporates the same errors as any others, BUT, your thrust curves lack some of the visual perspective that HP curve will provide. even as simple as the error of x/y graph intercects.

Now, go on and stay in your thrown of knowledge, but remember, you told your audi shift points were at max HP and just under redline. and we all know you to be dead wrong there for ALL the right reasons.

No

Tony

Uh oh...a kink in the armour!

ArthurPE

again, you are mistaken
elderly people have wisdom & patience

it is the immature (not young) that over-react and can never admit when they are wrong
you are a case in point

I've answered your 'questions', you just don't like the answers because they prove you are 'wrong', and it irks you, you think you are losing 'face' on the internet...a mental flaw on it's own which has nothing to do with chronological 'age'

I'm (and many others) right period, not just for a 'second'

you obviously lack the ability to see the error in your ways, so what makes you think I can enlighten you if you can't do it yourself?
your basic understanding/foundation is flawed, so all conclusions you draw based on that will be flawed
the broken machine can't fix itself...no riddles, just fact

now you seem to be getting into a tizzy, you might blow a gasket or something... lol
relax, take a deep breath and realize that it doesn't matter
keep using your flawed science in comfort because thankfully you don't use it in any capacity where it may have serious repurcussions, ie, life, limb, welfare, only on the internet

it's OK to go thru life never thinking you are wrong...as long as you don't hurt anyone else via those delusions

mark kibort

OK, perfect. great examples of all the things Im talking about.

you didnt "say " what you now say below, but still it is riddled with ERRORS

Lets go over them:

1. your shift points for each gear are correct from 1-4 gears , but in error for gears after that MEANING, shifts from 4-5-6 are all at redline as well

2. you say, " incorrect in my science and Wrong" Please show me why, and show your work
pretend its a physics test

3. OMG, the last satement and analysis of what I wrote is CLEARLY an example of the problem here. WHAT I PROVIDED WAS THE POST SHIFT RPMS for those playing at home to see what the post shift torque or Hp would be after a shift, not shift point. even if that wasnt obvious to you, the last sentence in my paragraph should have cleaned up any doubt! I clearly say, as an example, the post shift rpm would be 6500rpm from 4-5th gear change.
I ALSO SAY, and ask the question, " does anyone disagree that a redline shift in all gears is in order for max acceleration everywhere.

NOW, do you want to further prove you wrong and give the thrust force differences of YOUR way vs MY way for your short shift 5-6th gear shifts????



anyway, your short shfts are incorrect. It is YOUR method that is flawed and I can prove it very easily. you were also off by a small margin with the "Estate's" shift points as well and I proved that earlier as well.

If you are going to play here you at least have to read and comprehend the posts and understand the questions. You are poluting this thread with incorrect information.

ArthurPE

he's only 'hypothetically' wrong for the sake of 'arguement'
in reality (and by 'reality' I mean his mind) he is correct

mark kibort

No, I absolutely want to know if my answer or method is incorrect, its how we learn.
Now, i think you are suffering from some projection again and still cannot fully understand even the simplest of questions.

You have not until this last post, over 20+pages of this stuff, answered my question until now, and guess what, it is you that is wrong. all that knowledge out the window, because you know this stuff, i can feel it, but yet you lack the ability to apply that knowledge.

you just answered, for the first time, a question and you are incorrect. should I now go on to prove you wrong or do you see the error?

Mark

ArthurPE

let's let someone else gauge who is 'right & wrong'
I stand by mine

all you did is divide the gear ratio's
2/1 = 2.05/3.67 ~ 56%
3/2 = 1.46/2.055 ~ 71%
4/3 = 1.13/1.46 ~ 77%
5/4 = 0.92/1.13 ~ 81%
6/5 = 0.78/0.92 ~ 85%

absurd...this tells you nothing about the delivered torque
as far as post shift rpm's, how can ANYONE figuire out what the hell you're talking about!
where do post shift rpm's show on a tach? lol
or do you calculate that on the fly?
we are talking 'shift points', ie, when to shift, not the point 'after' you shift

you have not only lost the trees but the forrest too

let's not forget inertia is at play
is it better for accel to be at 200 lb ft on a rising curve or a decreasing one? (DT/dt, ie, positive or negative slope, hence no real need to go above HP peak unless the torque delta is large, like 1-2, 2-3, 3-4 but not 4-5 and 5-6)

I bet you're pounding your little fingers to bloody stumps
please don't kick your dog on my account

ArthurPE

you have some sort of complex...

why do people have to 'answer your questions'?
what do they owe you?
isn't it rather arrogent to 'demand' others capitualte to your whims?
you MUST answer!!!!

you are a silly boy (I assume male from 'Mark')
I bet people cross the street to avoid you when they see you coming

you have proved one thing, and it relates to your personality type

mark kibort

Ok, based on YOUR graphs ,and YOUR shift points,and using ft-lbs of force/force you get:

4-5th shifts from applying 1350ft-lbs, shifting and ending up with 1200ftlbs in 5th gear
5th to 6th shiff, shifts from 1050ft-lbs and ends up post shift at 950ftlbs in 6th gear

MY WAY, either your graph or hp curve.

USE REDLINE and her is why:

4th to 5th gear shift jumps out of 1200ft-lbs and ends up at 1200ftlbs
5th to 6th gear jumps out of 950ftlbs and ends up with 950ftlbs.

this is proof that shifting to redline, and not your advised ("max hp" ) shift point for 4-5-6 gears is INCORRECT because you apply LESS rear wheel forces throughout.

Using HP is much easier, to visualize, as you can almost eyeball the spread over the HP peak arc and easily see that redline provides the most area under the curve, just as Carroll Smith has said in his book.

you see Arthur, i hope many more of my competitors use your logic and methods. many have already and I have won races because of it. I hope they continue to use your flawed logic and methods so that they dont take full advantage of their engines' potential.

It is you that is delusional . See what I mean??

Now, if by chance I am wrong, or have misinterpreted your information, please someone, by all means, speak up!

mark kibort

Yes, i posted why you are wrong and Ive posted the answers and the proper methodology of why.

Now below, you have me shaking my head at you again!
Yes, the percentages were the rpm left after a gear shift. its how you find out the resulting RPM, per what even Carroll Smith said explicitly in his book

you say, "absurd"? "what does that have to do with torque". Really? did you really say this??? what it has to do with torque, is what the resultant torque will be post shift. its elementary! the % are there only to give anyone playing along the multiplier to find the post shift rpm. again, elementary.

Now, are you that dense??? serously, more projection here!!

Now, your innertia perspective is RICH! wow, you mean to tell me, if we have rear wheel hp or torque of 200ftlbs, you are going to make a shift before the peak vs after and down the peak HP if it is the same torque? the dyno has taken inertia already into account, thats how it got the torque anyway. So yes, forget about that. it is a non factor. the dyno is measuring rate of change of kinetic energy. you always want the post shift to be equal to your shift point power or thrust force. the only factor we are not looking at , is shift time, which actually furthers your shift rpm point up the rpm scale!!

Im not pounding anything, Im laughing at you and so will everyone else after they read this. GUYS, do you agree with me or dinglberry here??

YOU are really reaching with the inertia factor. bottomline, you want the rear wheel forces and HP to be as close to the same as possible before you shift, based on mechanical limits. thats how you maximize acceleration. now you seem like you have lost all common sense. seriously, are you ok?

Lets take a concensus

ptuomov

Go make love indoors. If you continue this int he privacy of your own bedroom with the curtains closed, no problem with me. Not that there's anything wrong with it...

mark kibort

Hey, he started it!

I just proved him wrong two posts ago with real answers from HIS graphs, yet for some reason he has to make up stuff about the planets being aligned so he can justify his mistake. classic!

Anyway, incase he doesnt come back. using HP curves and finding equal power points at **** and post shift points will yeild the max acceleration. very very simple. Carroll Smith agrees as well. you want to go through the hassle of using thrust curves and making some visual guestimations, go ahead, but in the end, if both are done correctly, they will yield the same answer. why??? Because Hp just includes engine torque and RPM. its the combo package.

Fabio421

Cosmo Kramer

This thread was Kibort bait in Rennlist lake. AO navigated the boat to where the Kibort would be biting, got one on and now the Kibort is pulling the boat all over the lake. AO has lost control of the boat and the Kibort won't stop fighting!! Somebody cut the line before it is too late!