NoVector

That's a great idea--never thought about grinding down a socket to make it a "shallow well" socket to fit in tight spots. / Bruce

928mac

There is also the
Neoprene-Cork Composite Gasket:
These gaskets are meant for boosted engines, where the added stability of the neoprene matrix keeps them from being pushed out sideways by crankcase pressures. Better than the stock cork gasket that dries out, the new neoprene-cork composite retains its shape and remains flexible for many years.

I think I will pick one up and try it this winter when I pull the engine, (yes I'm going to pull it) as always was the plan this spring when I did the in car main bearings.
Just had to make it last the summer.

Anyway, both gaskets are good, you just have to tighten them up evenly.

blown 87

I think Dave is talking about a torque adapter, not a socket.

F18Rep

Why? I'm getting ready to do this (studs, nylocks and standard gasket). Bruce

SeanR

I'm not a fan of the bolts, so I suppose it is just personal preference on that. Once you locktite the studs in, they don't back out, and using the nylock nuts, they wont back out either.

dr bob

I like the idea of the studs, installed with Loc-Tite, allowed to set for a day, then install the sump with nyloc nuts. But that means you can't use the torque wrench, be that good or bad.

The basic metal-metal tightening torque for a 6mm bolt is about 6 lbs/ft. Less with the silicone gasket, and almost unattainable results with the torque wrench thanks to relatively rigid sump and the squishy gasket. It takes a lot of passes with teh torque wrench, low setting obviously, to get the sump snugged properly and evenly. For theose bolts that you might find inaccessible with the torque wrench, doing them by hand will be OK so long as you end up with no more torque on them than the adjacent torque-wrenched bolts.

Using the Nyloc nuts means you need to know the breakaway and friction torque values for each nut before it contacts the sump cover face. The nuts are usually consistent when new, but the values change as they are reused. You'll need a beam-type wrench rather than a clicker, a steady hand that turns the nut at the same speed each time, and a good eye to read the values as the wrench is turning. All while laying under the car.

Using the flanged-face nuts that come in some of the kits is one practical alternative. The friction faces have little teeth that keep the nut from backing out, so no washers needed or really wanted. You can use a torque wrench to get them even, but again it's a lot of cycles and iterative measurement as you sneak up on your target torque.

Alternatives for both types of nuts, and the original bolts for that matter, include the method where you bring the sump up into contact with even progressive tightening of all the nuts/bolts. You can use plastic shims made from a sacrificial Zip-Loc freezer bag as telltales for when the sump is in contact with the gasket. Once all the telltales are held in snug but still loose enough to pull out with the same force, you can pull them and get to work on the nuts. 10% compression is likely more than adequate, so think along the lines of maybe 3/4 of a turn on each nut, progressively applied in 1/4 turn increments. By that point, the gasket will not show noticeable squeeze-out, while the telltales showed you that there are no gaps.


If I were to use the silicone gasket, I'd be tempted to give it a light spray coating of High-Tack adhesive before placing it on the sump. Tie it lightly in place with small zip ties to keep it in place until a lot of bolts were in place. Then cut the ties and remove them for the last bolts to go in. No zip ties if you use the stud kit and nuts of course. No room in the holes in the sump for studs and ties at the same time.


FWIW, the same instructions work well with the composite gasket. The torque values are ever-so-slighly higher if you use a torque wrench, otherwise everything is the same.


I have a really cool Japanese 1/4" drive torque-limiting screwdriver that has something like a 0-200 lbs/inch range. Perfect for this kind of very low-torque applications. Folks who have worked on motorcycle carburetors a lot will know the tool.

dprantl

Would it really be that expensive to mill a trench in the oil pan so it would accept a round rubber gasket? Then you could tighten the bolts properly and the rubber gasket would squash just the right amount when the pan contacted the block, regardless of tightening torque.

Dan
'91 928GT S/C 475hp/460lb.ft

dr bob

It would be tough. The groove needs to turn inside each bolt hole, so fitting the giant o-ring into the groove would likely take more hands than will comfortably fit on the pan while placing it under the car.


I fit a new gasket at MM time just because it wasn't much work. The original, maybe 15 years old and 60k at the time, didn't leak and seemed just fine. The replacement composite gasket has been leak-free since.


I had a Jag six-cylinder that had classic oil sump gasket leaks. The ultimate solution was to flatten the mating faces on the girdle and the sump on a big granite plate with lapping compound in oil. Then a very thin layer of non-hardening Permatex with no gasket. This was way before we had anaerobic Loc-Tite 474 or any of the reliable automotive RTV sealers we see today.

Folks who have enjoyed British scooters from the 60's and early 70's are certainly aware of the seepage issues common to those rides, and seen as many workarounds as I have. I remember buying clutch adjusting hole plugs for my Commando, until I just started putting a little nail polish on the threads on assembly. Poor-man's thread locker, comes off with acetone.

blown 87

The same thing is done with spacers, many gasket makers use this system, and it works.

Landseer

I just bolt the gaskets on. Tighten snuggly, trying not to bulge the gasket, trying by feel to duplicate around the perimeter.

Its possible to get to almost all of them without dropping the cross member.

Every time I get underneath I re-tighten any that worked loose.

Not perfect, but working well on 4 cars.

John Speake

Would using a crinkle washer, suitably chosen to compress at the required torque be a good visual way to get repeatable torque, regardless of stub/nyloc or bolt usage ?

karl ruiter

I like Bob's idea of using the tell-tales and then going a fixed rotation past contact.
-It removes any issues of resistance of due to old locktite or crud on the threads . With the torque method I will be reluctant to use loctite.
- I am not clear that silicon in this thickness will act very linear in terms of pressure v.s compression. I kinda suspect that the pressure starts dropping off once it starts bulging. So a little more torque might lead to a lot more compression.
- With the torque method I am a little unclear what effect the rigidness of the pan and tighness of neighbor fastners has.
- I am not clear that stiffness of the gasket does not change a little bit with time or temperature. If it does then the torque method might not yield as consistent amount of a compression.
- It frames the problem in a way I like better. We are after a consistent compression of X% across the whole body of the gasket.
-The screws are 6x1 and the gasket is about 3 or 4 mm thich. 15% compression would be about 1/2 turn.

worf928

I'm not advanced enough to use a torque adapter. Unless that's what a ground-down socket is called.

blown 87

Yea, says the man that told me how to adjust for non horizontal torque wrench usage.

I guess you were talking about a ground down socket.

SharkSkin

I used the stud kit(proper studs, not the set-screws), blue loctite and a small in/lb clicker torque wrench for everything that I could reach with it, then carefully gauged the torque on those bolts with a gearwrench and did my best to set the same torque on the ones on the front of the pan. The nuts were toplock nuts that aren't affected so much by heat and re-use.

I tightened in a fairly symmetrical pattern(as best I could). First I found the breakaway torque for the toplock nuts, then tightened everything to 5-in/lbs tighter than that number, checking all of the nuts repeatedly until the wrench clicked with no movement. then circled back around adding 24 in/lb each time. IIRC breakaway torque was ~4.5 ft/lbs and I tightened to 10 ft/lbs. No issues, that was 4 years and 25K miles ago.