odurandina

this is not an attempt to troll..... just curious about what you all think about the 944 and it's future in the p-car world.


i realize the 928 cars have an engine that falls somewhere between a chevy mouse and rat moter in terms of the weight and feel....(the pushrod vs/ dohc context notwithstanding) and the 928 is almost like a missile when you step on the gas. but about the other front engine car...


seems to me that a lot of the hardcore 944 owners have quietly been getting out over the past year, since i changed from only a long time reader to a member... but maybe this has been going on for many years. for just about the cost of getting one "right," you can almost get a 928 "right." or maybe not.... anyway, i think many of the 944 guys might finally be waking up that they can drive other nice P-cars for not a great deal more money than building a 944 up to daily driver status.. if i mention this specifically to the owners over there, they seem to get pissed. the one advantage however is the bottom feeding/part outs leave the potential for some great fun for the guys who work on their cars.... i also put the uncertain future of the 944 in a thread up there.



the bright spot for the 944 might be all those mothballed texas dps LS1 engines around, as some 944s are getting upgrades that don't break the bank..... and this is where the subject of this thread might raise an eyebrow or two over here.... any of you have an opinion about the OTHER front engine p-car ? will it die out ? does it matter ?



maybe we could move this thread to ot in a few days after you might comment...




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1l3w...layer_embedded

Leon Speed

It will not die out because of the looks and the power, but a few guys might switch over to a Panamera when they become affordable in a few years. Many 928 owners are "purist" when it comes to the engine. They might modidy the engine but swapping with something non-porsche is not "done". Not needed either since the power is plenty.

odurandina

sorry, just finished posting.... click refresh.

Landseer

I really want a stock 5 spd 944. Love the car. Had a lowered, tired one here for a year and enjoyed it. Got more positive style comments than the 928, too.

Those getting out have all kinds of reasons. Some are aging out, some are getting squeezed by economy, some realize that much higher performance is available for much less money. Younger crew that picks them up inexpensively may be less mechanically inclined. Today it can be the 16 year olds first car, completely expendable.

The enthusiast has had the luxury of availability of specimens and parts. I have an 83 auto in the driveway on boxter wheels, running engine and a spare auto trans. Worth about $500.

On a bad day, 944 parts are still more available than 928, but I think we are going to see exponential evaporation of parts for both and good cars. Parts, blocks, heads, etc, junked in the past because they aren't the best, will be coveted in the future.

They are 4 cyl, hard to rebore, and many have been thrashed along way because it takes full throttle to keep up with counterpart cars from start to 70mph or so. And thats what kids do with them.

I think the V8 conversion is ridiculous for a street car. Get into a bad accident with one and get assigned a shred of fault, a smart lawyer will strip you and your wrenching buddies of your assets. Illegal and out of control. Would love to have one of those too, and probably will some day, anyway.

S4ordie

Was a 944 (91 S2) and 968 (94 6spd) owner of low mile but enjoyed and driven cars. For me I loved the balance of the near 50/50 weight distribution of the 44 and 68. I even liked the styling of both cars and the basic no frills interiors. At the same time I owned a perfect 1966 Sunbeam Tiger that gave me the V8 experience I also loved. In the end I wanted both experiences in one car, hence the move to a 928.

I have not been a big fan of boosted (turbo) cars for the giggle factor. I have driven some stock and extreme iterations of 951's and just did not find the lag or power all that useful for the way I drive. For me, the 44/51/68 are really fine cars but as a development platform you can end up with an exceptional handling car but unless you slip in a LS1 it is really missing 4 cylinders.

The significant production numbers of the 44 will guarantee their presence for years to come. Very large parts sources though costs are similar to 928. They are getting more and more expensive to maintain but will never cost as much as a 928.

ptuomov

is there a precedent or is this speculation?

The normally aspirated 944 will probably mature in the sense that they'll be hot rodded less and less and probably restored more and more. Also, will be driven slower and slower by older and older geezers. Since by and large only old people have any money in this country, that's not necessarily a bad thing from the price appreciation stand point for the original cars.

People will probably continue to build out the 944 turbos, because they can still be made quite fast with the right mods.

z driver 88t

The 944 will stick around a long time just due to shear numbers. Plus the 944 Cup will maintain enthusisasm for the model. But like the 928 nice ones are getting hard to find. The problem with any of these cars that depreciate to the point that anyone can buy one but not any idiot can maintain them - and that's true of both cars since there is no shortage of sub-$5000 basket cases.

Personally I'm contemplating an S2 or 968 Cabrio sometime in 2011 'cause I've been missing not having a convertible.

And I agree that the ease of the LSX swap in the 944 is a huge plus - much easier than the 928 btw. You should read the account by Black Forest Racing when they did their first swap into a 928 - huge PITA. There's no such thing as a 2+2 Corvette, but if you need back seats (I have 2 daughters) an LSX 944 is pretty sweet. If it weren't too cost prohibitive or I could find a good deal on a 944 S2 cabrio with an LSX swap already sorted out that would be hard for me to pass up.

I've lurked a while on the 944/68 forum just because I've been contemplating such a purchase. In comparison to the 928 forum, the 928 guys seem to be a bit more mature and are incredibly helpful and are die-hard enthusiasts for the model. The level of effort 928 guys got to to help eachother out and document repairs and trouble shoot is incredible.

The craftsmanship in the "928 cottage industry" in second to none as well. To get an idea check out Paul Champagne

http://www.designpaulchampagne.com/928.html

or check out the console being designed by Jerry Feather.

https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...velopment.html

These guys don't undertake this level of effort to make a fortune. You can tell they really love the model and go above and beyond reasonable to make these cars the best they can. I don't see that level of love in the 944 crowd and one of the things that I think will keep me in the 928 camp for many years.

odurandina

this is might be the best post i've ever heard explaining the good and bad sides of the 944.








you might be right but, when you wreck on a roadway with any car it's usually not good.... and then there are those like Tony Garcia who's raced his LS1 944 T for years on the California Speedway after a proper build (he finally blew the engine after like 6 racing seasons just the other day).... the prevailing opinion seems to be something like, "there's not a single mechanical issue that's not been solved...."


http://tonygarcia.org/944V8/




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pADH2G9ung

danglerb

As interesting and fun to debate as we find motor swaps, its appeal to the general public is about ZERO. Maybe the most swapped makes are Jags and Jeeps, but I kind of doubt even with them we are talking 1% of total production or cars still on the road. Some will like them and do them, overall little impact.

A 948 is a hot car and still looks like a Porsche, even if it drives like a Mustang or Camaro, so it kind of fills this middle ground for those that want more than practical from a 944. OTOH once the supply of transaxles starts to drive up prices the swap may lose a lot of its appeal.

odurandina

the 948 weighs 36.380225 pounds more than stock 944 if the engine swapping in is an aluminum LS1, and not an LT1 or iron mouse....

weighs about 13.204252 pounds less than a 944 T.

Landseer

And can and will rip the innards out of gearboxes, for which there are no options, to Dangler's point.

z driver 88t

I don't mean to take this into the tangent of debating the LSX swap, but at least amongst my enthusiast community the FD RX-7 swap as well as the 240SX LSX swap are getting more and more common place. Even the Z31 and Z32 300ZXs have seen a few LS1 swaps. Just because something has the power plant of Camaro, doesn't mean it drives like one.

I'm a huge Porsche fan, but I'm not going to argue the merits of an iron block 4-banger that makes 60 HP per liter vs. an all aluminum (albeit pushrod) powerplant that makes 70 HP per liter and is lighter to boot.

Admittedly I haven't run into many 944 swaps, but it doesn't take a long look at sites like ls1.com, 944hybrids.com, renegadehybrids.com, ls1tech.com, etc. to see a lot of examples out there. I'm sure all these people aren't blowing up trannys left and right or I imagine enthusiasm would wane quickly. And although the transaxle may be a weak link, there are probably a lifetime supply of $800-$1000 junker 944s out there to justify the swap.

James Bailey

The 924-944 was the very first throwaway Porsche....cheap meant to be used up and discarded. Only ended up a Porsche after the new head of VW decided to cancel the nearly completed project and THEN Porsche opted to have it built and badged a Porsche since all the mega millions had already been spent. The 944 at least got a 1/2 a Porsche engine complete with numder 2 rod bearing issues. The 968 picked up on 928 styling cues and had the 3 liter which given the engine size ( a 911 legend ) and model designation many assume it is a 6 cylinder. Porsche ONLY sold them because it gave those buyers who could not afford a better Porsche something to buy.....and they made a lot of money selling them

black944 turbo

James and they are also wonderfully built and very capable cars!!!! They are in many respects as good as the rest of the line up from that vintage.

karl ruiter

Despite what James says, I really enjoy my 944. Totally different deal than a 928. Nimble, light and quick instead of solid fast. But 944s do have a point where you have to decide to fix of scrap: when they need a clutch.