Mrmerlin

can we start over ,
before this becomes even more confusing..

PLEASE read all of this a few times before you touch the car...


First remove the spark plugs.....
Then you need to remove the belt ,
then carefully turn the crank in what ever direction is closer to get the damper reading at the 45 degree mark to line up with pointer on the Water pump.

( this will put the pistons at a position where none of the valves will hit while turning either cam)

NOTE the crank keyway will be at the 3 O clock position (While looking at the engine) or facing the driverside fender when the crank is at the correct 45 degree position you should be able to read the damper while looking at the engine
IE the num8ers should not be upside down

Caution while turning the crank if there is any resistance try turning one or the other cam to see if you can move the hitting valve,
be very careful on this step any force will possibly bend a valve, you may have turn either cam CW or CCW to get the crank positioned.

Once the crank damper is lined up with the pointer at the 45 deg mark .
then turn each cam till its rear pulley cut mark is facing up then count 4 teeth towards the driverside and mark the tooth
Then line the cam at the mark you made with the rear of the cam housing this will put the cams at 4 teeth before the TDC marks will line up to cam housing line up marks,
Remove the damper.
refit the belt add some tension to the tensioner bolt then turn the crank to TDC the cams should be within a tooth or perfectly lined up to the cam housings, if this isnt so then turn the crank back to 45 degree mark CCW remove the belt and adjust either cam a tooth or what ever is needed to make everything line up at TDC.
Once you have the cams and crank lined up at TDC turn the crank 2 times CW as your facing it back to TDC
then recheck the belt tension .

Once the belt tension is checked .
then , remove the fuel pump relay and the LH relay and do a compression test.
please report the compression numbers

76FJ55

Mrmerlin,
If he is near the 45 mark on the crank I fully agree with your instructions. the problem is if he is in one of the other crank postion quadrants, he would need to turn the engine through more than 90 degrees which will mandate that he turn then engine through at least on TDC position. It will not be hard to determine the correct cam position for any known crank position. that is why i suggest going to the closest 45 degree position.

dcrasta

^This

IMHO, No matter how you proceed , to save this motor the cams will need to come out, then you will need to perform a Leakdown test, if it passes that, position the crank in the correct location and reinstall the cams correctly.

At least you learned how getting 1 detail wrong can cause cascade failure.

dcrasta

This started because you remove the belt at 45degrees on a 32v not -0 .
The Procedure is rotate the motor several times to - 0 degrees. Check the alignment (cams should be lined up with notches). Then you rotate to 45Degrees, and insert the flywheel lock. Then you remove the belt.

Your mistake was removing the belt at 0 degrees. While you can 'technically' do this, you increase your chances of bending valves on the 32v motor if you try doing the belt replacement @ 0.

Seriously, you are beyond the 'quick shortcut' fixes at this point.

You need to determine what is wrong. The safest way is to remove the cams, Leakdown test each cylinder (put the flywheel locking tool in to keep the crank from moving once they cylinders are pressurized. Leakdown testing will help you determine if your valves are bent and leaking compression. You may be 'lucky' and only have a few bent valves. Once you identify the problem that head will have to come off. You can get a head start on that process when you take the cams out.

DuncanR50

Reason triumphs.

Landseer

Over experience sometimes, it seems.

Landseer

You see, 76 and Stan, working together, are providing an intersting and viable way to assess the car before disassembly.

Hugh has proposed skipping to partial disassembly ( very difficult without pulling motor on 86, and essentially insufficient when it comes to matching valves to heads --- motor would need to come out / can't get heads out on these / pulling cams won't help much).

Oh, and a compression test that would just finish it off.

Eventually it might need to be pulled and fixed. Even that is fairly straightforward.

But give these engineering guys with experience a chance to help. Neither Stan nor 76 has missed yet.

DuncanR50

That's one experience I have happily avoided so far (crossing fingers). It would take a miracle that no valves were bent. Crashed 928 valves I've seen usually have a good 45 degree angle to them from normal. With the cams out I'm betting a bent valve would be obvious as it would not seat properly and the valve stem will sit lower and that should be noticeable with the cams out. No?

Landseer

The bends can be extremely subtle.

And even pulling the covers on an S3 is a pain. Heads are nearly impossible with motor in.

We know he will probably need to pull it.

But some careful analysis and assessment can't hurt at this point. 76 and Stan can help.

The first comment BTW was not meant for you Duncan!

DuncanR50

Pulling the cams is the safest way to rotate the crank now without bending a valve if the miracle has occured. Every valve if not bent will be safely seated in the head, though I seriously doubt that is the case now as the car was started in a TB failure mode. It's an interference design. It's not hard to predict this one. Replace the bent valves and probably machine the heads is the best outcome of this one.

Bill Ball

Matt:

You were at the 45 degree mark on the crank, right? So, you can ignore all the other degree possibilities. You say when you were working on it, the cam gears jumped and one made some noise. If you were at 45 degrees on the crank, then you are OK. No damage was done by the cam movement.

You say the cam gears were "off a tooth" counterclockwise. If you are putting the belt on at 45 degree's crank, you want the cam gear to be 3 cam gear teeth before the timing mark (counterclockwise). Then when you rotate the crank to TDC, the cam gear timing marks should line up. If you are off a tooth there, no big deal - no damage can be done. You loosen the belt tensioner and move the belt over a tooth. Easier said than done, but you'll get it.

From what you wrote above, you MIGHT be fine, although you said that during your original assembly of the belt that you had no idea where the cam gears were relative to the crank. That's bad, of course. The fact that it wouldn't start is bad, but it could be due to something else, like you forgot to reattach the coil leads or whatever.

Anyway, get the belt back on correctly. Pull the spark plugs out, as Stan said. If it turns freely then with no hard stop, it would be best then to do a leakdown test. Somebody nearby from this group should be able to help you with that.

DuncanR50

What, we can't comment on anything posted?

Landseer

Comment anyway you want. Enjoy.


This engine might not have a thing wrong with it. No sense messing it up. Take a breath.

We all know how to fix bent valves if it come to that.

Guys with this Kohler engine advice need to lay off.

With some careful movements, like a safecracker would employ, the cams and crankshaft can likely be re-indexed into time.

THEN its possible to assess.

And with some luck, a fair amount of luck actually, the engine might be saved without disassembly. That's what we are talking about.


Think Apollo 13. Some of the guys on this board work at NASA, really. Let them work.

DuncanR50

I don't know any Mitsubishi guy, but don't discount someone's experience because he might know more about another make. I see a guy say he pulled the TB off without any regard to timing marks, reassemble and then start the car with a 32 Valve interference engine. I have enough 928, S, S3 and S4experience to know the engine is 99% probably FUBAR. The principles of engineering on an interference engine regardless of make are pretty much the same. I think it's not bad advice to pull the cams.

Mrmerlin

It would be best to turn the crank to 45 and then you can turn the cams any way you want.

Just turn slowly so you dont cause additional damage,
when the piston hits the valve ,
by turning either of the cams the resistance will either increase or decrease.
The most that the crank would have to be turned is 180 degrees or less (half a turn or less)

That said since the OP may not be a shop mechanic or even a backyard mechanic,
why add additional complicated steps that will put the engine further away from running.

Taking out the cams can cause other issues that at this point dont need to be found.
Cam removal can be done if the engine is pulled.

Though its likely that the valves did get bent . (The compression test will show this)

And pulling the cams out is a good idea,
its not the best idea for now IMHO

It is worth a chance that if the steps i posted are followed he can find out if the engine will run without any more disassembly