What design changes would you like to see on your 928?
07-19-2010, 09:04 PM
#65
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Better insulation on the wires/copper annealed better.
Wiring harness disconnects for engine systems.
Engine/emissions controls like an 80's Ford (can be chipped and work fine).
Completely different engine.
Some of the items mentioned weren't current at the time, so can't ask for those, but flush glass is nice.
Style and steer are fine with me, but the electrics and the engine, I'm sorry, they just aren't very good. The leather? It's OK, but not great (our Merkurs have better leather - the early ones cracked and FORD FIXED IT!) Interesting concept.
No disrespect, the car is fine for the prices they bring now, after all, I do own one, but realistically they have some serious issues.
Wiring harness disconnects for engine systems.
Engine/emissions controls like an 80's Ford (can be chipped and work fine).
Completely different engine.
Some of the items mentioned weren't current at the time, so can't ask for those, but flush glass is nice.
Style and steer are fine with me, but the electrics and the engine, I'm sorry, they just aren't very good. The leather? It's OK, but not great (our Merkurs have better leather - the early ones cracked and FORD FIXED IT!) Interesting concept.
No disrespect, the car is fine for the prices they bring now, after all, I do own one, but realistically they have some serious issues.
07-19-2010, 09:25 PM
#67
Rennlist Member
I would bet money that almost every American who complains about cup holders is slightly obese, and pre-diabetic. My cup holder is between my legs, and the best part is that it keeps my ***** cool in the summer.
+1 on a heater valve that defaults to the closed position.
Reinforcement of the fender lip around the wheel to prevent cracking.
Timing chain. Don't tell me stories of the timing chains on some of the older Mercedes Benz engines. It only proves that Mercedes has a long standing reputation for being substandard ****.
HVAC. Did they really have to run the hard lines so they'd pass within millimeters on the engine? Why did they make it so the hose connections on the compressor are totally inaccessible with the compressor and air pump in place?
"S" spoiler is made out of Styrofoam. WTF? Even the ****tiest Hyundai's driven by every hood rat and his "baby-mama" in the late 80s didn't use f*cking Styrofoam for exterior trim. The fact that they used that **** on the 928, 944, and 911 tells me that the German people got what they deserved during their summer of passion, romance, and wild orgies with the Red Army in 1945.
+1 on a heater valve that defaults to the closed position.
Reinforcement of the fender lip around the wheel to prevent cracking.
Timing chain. Don't tell me stories of the timing chains on some of the older Mercedes Benz engines. It only proves that Mercedes has a long standing reputation for being substandard ****.
HVAC. Did they really have to run the hard lines so they'd pass within millimeters on the engine? Why did they make it so the hose connections on the compressor are totally inaccessible with the compressor and air pump in place?
"S" spoiler is made out of Styrofoam. WTF? Even the ****tiest Hyundai's driven by every hood rat and his "baby-mama" in the late 80s didn't use f*cking Styrofoam for exterior trim. The fact that they used that **** on the 928, 944, and 911 tells me that the German people got what they deserved during their summer of passion, romance, and wild orgies with the Red Army in 1945.
07-19-2010, 10:06 PM
#69
Nordschleife Master
The answer to the original question "What design changes would you like to see on your 928?" is, drum roll, a twin turbo system! ;-)
07-20-2010, 01:40 AM
#71
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It's always easy to look back and go: 'If I had only done it this or that way...' But the reality is, you won't know how to improve the whole after you have seen and experienced it. Then there is the issue of time to market and engineering budget. You may realize something is not 100% perfect, but you neither have the time nor the budget to improve it before (or after) launch.
Porsche designers and engineers certainly tried to build the best car they could possibly imagine in the early 70ies - almost 40 years ago! At the time, cars had baroque looks with chrome bumpers and trim galore. While elsewhere, it was all about the "trim", Porsche started rethinking how to make a better, more functional and durable car with the technologies they had, or the ones they could imagine creating for this car. Remember they had no CAD at the time; many of today's technologies that help designers and engineers were not even in development, yet.
I think they did an incredible job with what they had. For exampley, Peter Reisinger explained to me that flush door window glass was not possible at the time, so they had to balance this limitation with the look of the other windows.
Changing this design later, when flush windows were possible, would have required very expensive sheet metal and other changes that the low volume 928 production just could not justify.
When the Boxster and 996 models were conceived, things had advanced tremendously, and many issues that we are fighting with were prevented by modern CAD and modeling technology. That was a luxury they had when developing these models; the 928 never justified a full redesign.
Porsche designers and engineers certainly tried to build the best car they could possibly imagine in the early 70ies - almost 40 years ago! At the time, cars had baroque looks with chrome bumpers and trim galore. While elsewhere, it was all about the "trim", Porsche started rethinking how to make a better, more functional and durable car with the technologies they had, or the ones they could imagine creating for this car. Remember they had no CAD at the time; many of today's technologies that help designers and engineers were not even in development, yet.
I think they did an incredible job with what they had. For exampley, Peter Reisinger explained to me that flush door window glass was not possible at the time, so they had to balance this limitation with the look of the other windows.
Changing this design later, when flush windows were possible, would have required very expensive sheet metal and other changes that the low volume 928 production just could not justify.
When the Boxster and 996 models were conceived, things had advanced tremendously, and many issues that we are fighting with were prevented by modern CAD and modeling technology. That was a luxury they had when developing these models; the 928 never justified a full redesign.
07-20-2010, 09:59 AM
#72
Drifting
I think they got these right;
Interior materials - (full leather euro) best leather I have seen, thickness and feel. The carpet is way better than any other that I have looked at in person (that means everything except Rolls/bentley), most leather issues probably due to PO's.
Interior materials - (full leather euro) best leather I have seen, thickness and feel. The carpet is way better than any other that I have looked at in person (that means everything except Rolls/bentley), most leather issues probably due to PO's.
I am referring to the leather itself not necessarily the stitching and I am comparing it to other OEM's.
I like the thickest leather possible, but at the same time it should feel soft. I just know the feel of stuff and appreciate quality. I have been to a lot of Harley dealerships, felt a ton of coats, been to the Vanson Leather factory/store in Mass. and got a lesson on all the different leathers and finishes. I have done a little hobby work with leather and ordered some hides and touched, examined hundreds of sample swatches of leather from different houses/tanners.
There is all kinds - thin stuff, textured stuff, colored, patterned, you name it. I like thick as possible with a nice soft finish. Some of the nicest leather I have ever felt anywhere is on my coat. It is a 10 year old black leather coat from MARC NEW YORK.
I've sat in a sh!tload of high-end cars and not many have very impressive leather. The new porsches have leather that is so worked/refined/smooth as to look and feel man-made. It feels thin and textureless and tight as a drum. The leather in my 85 euro is the closest to my coat as I have found in a car leather. Thick yet soft, better by far than mercedes leather (had a mercedes), new porsche leather, lambo leather, ferrari leather, and AM leather.
I think the only leathers I thought were close was a new Jag I sat in a year ago and surprizingly the leather in a brand new Challenger at a dealer a year ago. Now I am not talking about french stitching on the seams, just the leather itself.
07-20-2010, 10:08 AM
#73
Race Car
My '91 most definitely has much lighter steering than my '86 did. And I have 245 tires in the front instead of 225's and the '91 is supposed to be heavier too.
So the question is what could the 928 designers put into the car that they knew beforehand would be much better:
- Timing chain
- Water pump not driven by engine timing system
- Vacuum actuators. Doesn't matter where, driving things with condoms is gonna fail shortly
- Rounder wheel arches, especially in the rear. Nicole showed how to do it wrong, but look at Glenn's Strosek and tell me it doesn't look better with rounder arches. Squarish arches are only found on '60s cars and modern trucks. The Panamera is a much bigger car than the 928 and it has round arches, and when the new coupe comes out, you better believe it will have round arches too
https://rennlist.com/forums/4887662-post1.html
- Location and design of the recirculation flap. Have you seen where this is on i.e. a 968? That was a really stupid place to put it, and an even stupider place to put the actuator.
- Fuse/relay block. The footwell really is not a good place for it and I have no doubt that this contributes to the 928's somewhat misguided "electrical nightmare" reputation. I would much prefer it in the engine bay like a 968 and sealed from the elements. Or if you're going to put it there, at least seal it up with a water-tight cover? Same goes for the engine computers.
Dan
'91 928GT S/C
475hp/460lb.ft
So the question is what could the 928 designers put into the car that they knew beforehand would be much better:
- Timing chain
- Water pump not driven by engine timing system
- Vacuum actuators. Doesn't matter where, driving things with condoms is gonna fail shortly
- Rounder wheel arches, especially in the rear. Nicole showed how to do it wrong, but look at Glenn's Strosek and tell me it doesn't look better with rounder arches. Squarish arches are only found on '60s cars and modern trucks. The Panamera is a much bigger car than the 928 and it has round arches, and when the new coupe comes out, you better believe it will have round arches too
https://rennlist.com/forums/4887662-post1.html
- Location and design of the recirculation flap. Have you seen where this is on i.e. a 968? That was a really stupid place to put it, and an even stupider place to put the actuator.
- Fuse/relay block. The footwell really is not a good place for it and I have no doubt that this contributes to the 928's somewhat misguided "electrical nightmare" reputation. I would much prefer it in the engine bay like a 968 and sealed from the elements. Or if you're going to put it there, at least seal it up with a water-tight cover? Same goes for the engine computers.
Dan
'91 928GT S/C
475hp/460lb.ft
07-20-2010, 12:12 PM
#74
Official Bay Area Patriot
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07-20-2010, 01:37 PM
#75
Rennlist Member
1. Telescoping steering wheel column! Please!
2. Manual steering rack - I hear the 944 guys have a supplier. I drove mine without the power steering pump belt installed for a bit before rebuilding my rack. Worked fine.
After cleaning years and years and years worth of acummulated atf off my S4 from the leaking rack and hoses, I'd gladly trade a bit of a work out for a not-possible to leak manual steering rack.
Most of the other issues are being, or have already been addressed by our major suppliers, so I'm feeling pretty good about the long term health and development of the species. Thanks suppliers!
Although, it would be nice to have a simple, inexpensive, and documented fix for these two issues, which are a source of concern for me:
1. 2/6 Rod bearing failures
2. Oil breather issues
And did I mention a telescoping steering wheel column! Please!
2. Manual steering rack - I hear the 944 guys have a supplier. I drove mine without the power steering pump belt installed for a bit before rebuilding my rack. Worked fine.
After cleaning years and years and years worth of acummulated atf off my S4 from the leaking rack and hoses, I'd gladly trade a bit of a work out for a not-possible to leak manual steering rack.
Most of the other issues are being, or have already been addressed by our major suppliers, so I'm feeling pretty good about the long term health and development of the species. Thanks suppliers!
Although, it would be nice to have a simple, inexpensive, and documented fix for these two issues, which are a source of concern for me:
1. 2/6 Rod bearing failures
2. Oil breather issues
And did I mention a telescoping steering wheel column! Please!