Re-design and fabricate console trim piece--HOW TO
05-20-2010, 10:36 AM
#17
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05-20-2010, 11:34 AM
#18
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Before I go into what I was going to call Phase 3 of this project--the development of the base for the forming machine--I thought it might be helpful to give you some kind of advance idea of where I think this is going. By that I mean, in order to help you visualize a possible end to this project, like I have in mind, I thought I should give you some visual basis for your own concept.
Before the pictures, however, I will give you a little discourse about how I have developed this, or actually "these" forming procedures. One of the things that I have learned in this kind of project is that when this ABS Plastic is heated to soft and formable, it does not use a lot of the plastic available to form the end piece.
For example, the first method I developed to do this is by making a male die or form and then pushing it through a hole in the other part of the machine.
That can be thought of as the female form, but it really only forms the perimiter of the piece.
The other method I have developed is to pull the plastic down around the male form then pull the female die down over it. That tends to provide more of the original plastic work piece or blank into the finished piece.
The first method I call a single phase process and the second I call a two phase or two stage process.
Here are some pictures.
The first shows the single phase machine that I use to form the Hatch Latch Receiver Liner that you have probably seem before. With this machine I put the plastic into the machine over the female die (hole in the base plate) then simply push the male die down through it when it is heated to the correct temperature. That process pulls a little bit of the surrounding plastic into the final formed piece, but not as much as you might expect.
The second picture shows the same kind of process--pushing the plastic through a hole, but it is also a two stage machine in that after the plastic is pushed through the hole I have to reheat it and then pull the other stage down to form the inside of the piece. This is actually the very first of these machines that I have made and is the one I used to form the body of the center console glove box I made to relpace the cassette box in one of my cars that had the lid caved in. You can see a complete formed glovebox body still in this machine.
The third picture is a two stage machine more like I described above where I first pull the plastic down over the male form in kind a tent-like manner then pull the female die down over it to get the plastic to form to the die. That is the method that I think gets more of the plastic into the workpiece than the earlier method. This machine is used to make an arm rest body for my trim guy which kind of replicates the arm rest in some early 60's GM cars, I think.
More about the concept for this new trim piece machine later, but I hope this gives you some basis to imagine where I am going with this.
Before the pictures, however, I will give you a little discourse about how I have developed this, or actually "these" forming procedures. One of the things that I have learned in this kind of project is that when this ABS Plastic is heated to soft and formable, it does not use a lot of the plastic available to form the end piece.
For example, the first method I developed to do this is by making a male die or form and then pushing it through a hole in the other part of the machine.
That can be thought of as the female form, but it really only forms the perimiter of the piece.
The other method I have developed is to pull the plastic down around the male form then pull the female die down over it. That tends to provide more of the original plastic work piece or blank into the finished piece.
The first method I call a single phase process and the second I call a two phase or two stage process.
Here are some pictures.
The first shows the single phase machine that I use to form the Hatch Latch Receiver Liner that you have probably seem before. With this machine I put the plastic into the machine over the female die (hole in the base plate) then simply push the male die down through it when it is heated to the correct temperature. That process pulls a little bit of the surrounding plastic into the final formed piece, but not as much as you might expect.
The second picture shows the same kind of process--pushing the plastic through a hole, but it is also a two stage machine in that after the plastic is pushed through the hole I have to reheat it and then pull the other stage down to form the inside of the piece. This is actually the very first of these machines that I have made and is the one I used to form the body of the center console glove box I made to relpace the cassette box in one of my cars that had the lid caved in. You can see a complete formed glovebox body still in this machine.
The third picture is a two stage machine more like I described above where I first pull the plastic down over the male form in kind a tent-like manner then pull the female die down over it to get the plastic to form to the die. That is the method that I think gets more of the plastic into the workpiece than the earlier method. This machine is used to make an arm rest body for my trim guy which kind of replicates the arm rest in some early 60's GM cars, I think.
More about the concept for this new trim piece machine later, but I hope this gives you some basis to imagine where I am going with this.
05-20-2010, 11:47 AM
#20
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Thanks Nicole, for the link to Widom's thread. That is really a beautiful center console concept and very well executed. That looks like a lot more work than I expect to get into in this project, but it does lend itself to further thought for one or both of my major 928 modification projects. Perhaps I will be able the modify the tooling I am making here to work into some of that flush kind of modification, later. Jerry
05-20-2010, 12:20 PM
#21
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Thread Starter
This post doesn't have any pictures, but I wanted to follow up that previous one (with pictures) and tell you what this new forming machine is likely to entail is the context of what I have shown you I have done before.
My trim piece machine is going to be the most complex of any that I have made so far. I am going to use the later method where I pull the plastic down over the Male form in a tent-like manner, but even that is going to be complicated. It is going to be more complex because of the height of the front of the trim piece, so I am going to make the frame that holds the plastic work- piece so that it will articulate when the plastic is soft in order not to stretch the front part of the plastic too thin where it is not necessary. That will be the first step or phase of the forming process.
Then the second step or phase will be to pull down the female die or form to form the outer perimiter of the trim piece; and the third step will be to pull another form down which will be in the nature of sort of a reverse male die that will form the inside areas of the trim piece.
Actually, I am leaning toward the idea of pulling the inside one down first and the the outer one last because intuitively I think that will put more of the original plastice blank into the finished product. I haven't figured out the geometry of doing it that way, but I will be working on that as I go along.
A final complexity will be to make the tooling adjustable so that parts can be added or taken away to allow for forming the trim piece in some of the optional configurations that I mentioned earlier.
So, to summarize, you should be starting to visualize a machine that will have a base plate with the "sculpted" male form fastened upon it, with a plastic holding frame hinged above it, with another frame above that with one or the other of the dies to form the outside or inside of the trim piece, and with the third frame or set of dies to form the other of the inside/outside edges.
Actually there is possibly going to be another phase, but that may become a seperate machine or devise that can be added at the end to form two of the edges of the trim piece under two areas of the basic male form, if I decide to do that toward the end of this project.
More this evening on the development of the base plate and perhaps more on the sculpted form. Now I have to go to work. Jerry
My trim piece machine is going to be the most complex of any that I have made so far. I am going to use the later method where I pull the plastic down over the Male form in a tent-like manner, but even that is going to be complicated. It is going to be more complex because of the height of the front of the trim piece, so I am going to make the frame that holds the plastic work- piece so that it will articulate when the plastic is soft in order not to stretch the front part of the plastic too thin where it is not necessary. That will be the first step or phase of the forming process.
Then the second step or phase will be to pull down the female die or form to form the outer perimiter of the trim piece; and the third step will be to pull another form down which will be in the nature of sort of a reverse male die that will form the inside areas of the trim piece.
Actually, I am leaning toward the idea of pulling the inside one down first and the the outer one last because intuitively I think that will put more of the original plastice blank into the finished product. I haven't figured out the geometry of doing it that way, but I will be working on that as I go along.
A final complexity will be to make the tooling adjustable so that parts can be added or taken away to allow for forming the trim piece in some of the optional configurations that I mentioned earlier.
So, to summarize, you should be starting to visualize a machine that will have a base plate with the "sculpted" male form fastened upon it, with a plastic holding frame hinged above it, with another frame above that with one or the other of the dies to form the outside or inside of the trim piece, and with the third frame or set of dies to form the other of the inside/outside edges.
Actually there is possibly going to be another phase, but that may become a seperate machine or devise that can be added at the end to form two of the edges of the trim piece under two areas of the basic male form, if I decide to do that toward the end of this project.
More this evening on the development of the base plate and perhaps more on the sculpted form. Now I have to go to work. Jerry
05-20-2010, 01:00 PM
#22
Drifting
Jerry,
Nice looking work. I'm guessing you might be the type of guy that could benefit from amazon blowing out the price of fasterners.
Some of these are ten cents on the dollar and free shipping with Prime (which I have) or $25 total.
Following are some expample of some of the deals (there were tons more a couple days ago):
http://www.amazon.com/Stainless-Stee...4369201&sr=1-2
http://www.amazon.com/Stainless-Mach...4369010&sr=1-1
http://www.amazon.com/Black-Nylon-So...4370319&sr=1-6
http://www.amazon.com/Alloy-Steel-So...70517&sr=1-115
http://www.amazon.com/Stainless-Mach...4369010&sr=1-1
http://www.amazon.com/Stainless-Mach...4369010&sr=1-1
http://www.amazon.com/Stainless-Mach...4369010&sr=1-1
Nice looking work. I'm guessing you might be the type of guy that could benefit from amazon blowing out the price of fasterners.
Some of these are ten cents on the dollar and free shipping with Prime (which I have) or $25 total.
Following are some expample of some of the deals (there were tons more a couple days ago):
http://www.amazon.com/Stainless-Stee...4369201&sr=1-2
http://www.amazon.com/Stainless-Mach...4369010&sr=1-1
http://www.amazon.com/Black-Nylon-So...4370319&sr=1-6
http://www.amazon.com/Alloy-Steel-So...70517&sr=1-115
http://www.amazon.com/Stainless-Mach...4369010&sr=1-1
http://www.amazon.com/Stainless-Mach...4369010&sr=1-1
http://www.amazon.com/Stainless-Mach...4369010&sr=1-1
05-20-2010, 08:07 PM
#23
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Its kind of funny how one's brain works. I had started my thought processes on this trim piece project 3 or 4 weeks ago or more and had actually thought through the entire process. Then when I got back to it and began processing material my brain did kind of a small 360 wherein I tried to redo the basic part of this machine--not the male form, but the base plate and plastic holding frame--and then finally found myself right back at the original concept.
What I have been doing in the basic design is starting with the plastic material blank that I expect to be using; and I had tentatively decided on a piece 12 inches by 16 inches. That suggested to me that the base plate upon which the male form will be mounted ought to be should be about the same.
Since I will need a half inch at one end of the base plate to mount a hinge plate, that suggested a base plate of 12 by 16 and 1/2. So, I rounded up to 12 by 17; then I looked at my stash of aluminum material and found my closest piece is 11 1/2 inches wide, so suddenly my criteria changed. Then I decided I might get by with a shorter base and then changed that to 15 and 1/2. Finally I ended up at 11 1/2 by 16 for the base.
The first picture this evening shows me cutting that much off of the material with the bandsaw.
Then I realized that I could still use 12 by 16 material, if I want, since the baseplate actually doesn't relate so directly to the plastic frame or material blank as I thought. It is actually just holding up the male form, holding the hinge plate and holding some stiffeners underneath for a handle and locking points.
I have also cut off a piece of half inch aluminum plate which will be used for the hinge plate. It will be bolted at a right angle to the end of ther base plate. To it will be mounted each of the three items previously discussed--that is, the plastic holding frame, the frame or bracket for the first forming die, and the bracket for the final forming die.
The second picture shows a sort of "mock-up" of the pieces I have described so far. Also shown in this picture for general reference is some bar stock beneath the base plate located about where the stiffeners/handles will be located.
I will need to spend some machine time now truing up these pieces and drilling and tapping all of them to be bolted together. I wont get to that until perhaps tomorrow or Saturday since I have to go back to work far a couple of hours this evening.
Finally, for today, I will say that after further evaluation of the idea of forming the inside of the trim piece first then the outside, I figured out that I probably can't do it that way, at least while I have a handle on the inside form that extends past the perimiter of the outside form, which it will. You wil be able to see that when I get to that point later on.
More later, maybe tomorrow. Jerry
What I have been doing in the basic design is starting with the plastic material blank that I expect to be using; and I had tentatively decided on a piece 12 inches by 16 inches. That suggested to me that the base plate upon which the male form will be mounted ought to be should be about the same.
Since I will need a half inch at one end of the base plate to mount a hinge plate, that suggested a base plate of 12 by 16 and 1/2. So, I rounded up to 12 by 17; then I looked at my stash of aluminum material and found my closest piece is 11 1/2 inches wide, so suddenly my criteria changed. Then I decided I might get by with a shorter base and then changed that to 15 and 1/2. Finally I ended up at 11 1/2 by 16 for the base.
The first picture this evening shows me cutting that much off of the material with the bandsaw.
Then I realized that I could still use 12 by 16 material, if I want, since the baseplate actually doesn't relate so directly to the plastic frame or material blank as I thought. It is actually just holding up the male form, holding the hinge plate and holding some stiffeners underneath for a handle and locking points.
I have also cut off a piece of half inch aluminum plate which will be used for the hinge plate. It will be bolted at a right angle to the end of ther base plate. To it will be mounted each of the three items previously discussed--that is, the plastic holding frame, the frame or bracket for the first forming die, and the bracket for the final forming die.
The second picture shows a sort of "mock-up" of the pieces I have described so far. Also shown in this picture for general reference is some bar stock beneath the base plate located about where the stiffeners/handles will be located.
I will need to spend some machine time now truing up these pieces and drilling and tapping all of them to be bolted together. I wont get to that until perhaps tomorrow or Saturday since I have to go back to work far a couple of hours this evening.
Finally, for today, I will say that after further evaluation of the idea of forming the inside of the trim piece first then the outside, I figured out that I probably can't do it that way, at least while I have a handle on the inside form that extends past the perimiter of the outside form, which it will. You wil be able to see that when I get to that point later on.
More later, maybe tomorrow. Jerry
05-21-2010, 09:10 AM
#24
Rennlist Member
I like where this is headed! Real glad you are attacking these issues as opportunities. There are lots of them on this car, its such a strong base it deserves upgraded pieces.
Jadz928 who is a product designer was raving yesterday about the spare tire cover he bought.
Jadz928 who is a product designer was raving yesterday about the spare tire cover he bought.
05-21-2010, 10:44 AM
#25
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Thanks for this input and encouragement. I too find this useful because of the great input that seems to come from the community. I especially like Nicole's suggestion. Although her idea is not going to change the original direction of this project, it does give rise to a couple of considerations that might be incorporated so that something like Kieth did might be accomplished later using part of this project in the process. Thanks to all for your ideas. Jerry
05-22-2010, 06:10 PM
#26
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Thread Starter
I was going to get more done last night on this project, but I got distracted. What I did get done was working up a drawing of the layout of the Base plate and a little bit of the hinge plate so that I wouldn't have to create all of that in my head as I cut and drilled on the actual material. See the first two pictures. They also show the position on the base plate where the two form sides will be located, so I can drill those holes when I get back out in the shop.
Then, today I got out to the shop and spent quite a bit of time on the mill with these parts. Most of the time was with the hinge plate which I first had to true up to the finished measurements, at least the preliminary ones, and then drill and tap some holes in it for both the bottom hinge point and for the mounting of the hinge to the base plate. some of that is shown in the third and fourth pictures.
The last of five pictures in this post shows me drilling the hinge point holes which will be tapped for hinge pins.
One of the things you can see in these pictures is a large chunk of metal that is bolted to the hinge plate. That is not going to end up being a part of this forming machine. What it is is something bolted to the plate so I can hold the hinge plate in my mill vise. The hinge plate is about 5 inches by just under 11 inches and my mill vise will open only to about 4 inches.
After I put the chunk of metal on the hinge plate then I was able to mill it all around to the final dimensions and end up square. Actually that is only the preliminary shape of the hinge plate since there will have to be two narrower segments milled into it later for the top two forming levers. I don't know the measurements for those yet, so I will leave the metal chunk bolted on so I can hold it in the mill for further machining.
Oh, something you might notice is the last picture is how short the drill might be that is sticking out of the mill collet. Actually I am doing something here that I really don't like to do, and that is holding the drill bit in the collet by the drill flutes. I couldn't help it here because my mill is also short enough in working height that I had to to be able to drill these two hinge pin holes.
Then, today I got out to the shop and spent quite a bit of time on the mill with these parts. Most of the time was with the hinge plate which I first had to true up to the finished measurements, at least the preliminary ones, and then drill and tap some holes in it for both the bottom hinge point and for the mounting of the hinge to the base plate. some of that is shown in the third and fourth pictures.
The last of five pictures in this post shows me drilling the hinge point holes which will be tapped for hinge pins.
One of the things you can see in these pictures is a large chunk of metal that is bolted to the hinge plate. That is not going to end up being a part of this forming machine. What it is is something bolted to the plate so I can hold the hinge plate in my mill vise. The hinge plate is about 5 inches by just under 11 inches and my mill vise will open only to about 4 inches.
After I put the chunk of metal on the hinge plate then I was able to mill it all around to the final dimensions and end up square. Actually that is only the preliminary shape of the hinge plate since there will have to be two narrower segments milled into it later for the top two forming levers. I don't know the measurements for those yet, so I will leave the metal chunk bolted on so I can hold it in the mill for further machining.
Oh, something you might notice is the last picture is how short the drill might be that is sticking out of the mill collet. Actually I am doing something here that I really don't like to do, and that is holding the drill bit in the collet by the drill flutes. I couldn't help it here because my mill is also short enough in working height that I had to to be able to drill these two hinge pin holes.
05-22-2010, 06:25 PM
#27
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
After I got the hinge pin holes drilled I had to tap them with threads for the hinge pin/bolts.
Then I put the hinge plate in the mill vise long ways and located and drilled the four mounting holes across the bottom. They are also tapped for bolts. The bolts that will be holding the hinge plate to the base plate will also be anchoring the ends of the four stiffeners/handle pieces that I worked on next.
As shown the other day, the stiffeners/handles are made of bar stock that is 1/2 by 3/4. One of these pictures shows me cutting four pieces of stock off in my metal cutting band saw. Then I put all four pieces together in my mill vise and located and drilled a bunch of mounting holes in them. There is a quarter inch hole in the very end which also has a counter bore so the socket head of the mounting bolts does not protrued. There is one in one of the holes in one of these pictures.
Then I had about a dozen holes to tap for threads since the stiffeners will be held under the base plate with socket head bolts from above.
Well, I see that one of the pictures didn't upload. I'll put it at the head of the next post.
Then I put the hinge plate in the mill vise long ways and located and drilled the four mounting holes across the bottom. They are also tapped for bolts. The bolts that will be holding the hinge plate to the base plate will also be anchoring the ends of the four stiffeners/handle pieces that I worked on next.
As shown the other day, the stiffeners/handles are made of bar stock that is 1/2 by 3/4. One of these pictures shows me cutting four pieces of stock off in my metal cutting band saw. Then I put all four pieces together in my mill vise and located and drilled a bunch of mounting holes in them. There is a quarter inch hole in the very end which also has a counter bore so the socket head of the mounting bolts does not protrued. There is one in one of the holes in one of these pictures.
Then I had about a dozen holes to tap for threads since the stiffeners will be held under the base plate with socket head bolts from above.
Well, I see that one of the pictures didn't upload. I'll put it at the head of the next post.
05-22-2010, 06:36 PM
#28
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Thread Starter
After I got the holes drilled and tapped in the stiffeners I kind of loosely assembled what I have so far done. Actually the base plate will be assembled finally between the hinge plate and the stiffeners, but since I haven't gotten the base plate trimmed or drilled I can't put in into the mockup yet.
I am going out later and try to finish up the stiffeners, trim and drill the base plate and possibly make the handles for what I have so far.
You will notice in the third picture that I have put my big countersink into the mill to use like a 45 degree end mill and I am using it to knock off the corner of the stiffeners. It helps to do this where corners are going to be exposed since there will be a lot of handling of this machine when I put it into service.
I am going out later and try to finish up the stiffeners, trim and drill the base plate and possibly make the handles for what I have so far.
You will notice in the third picture that I have put my big countersink into the mill to use like a 45 degree end mill and I am using it to knock off the corner of the stiffeners. It helps to do this where corners are going to be exposed since there will be a lot of handling of this machine when I put it into service.
05-22-2010, 09:16 PM
#30
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Yeh, I know it is, but I can't help myself.
So, in tune with this insanity, here are some more pictures for this afternoon. I got some more done, but not quite as far as I had hoped. Of course I never do. What I got done was trimming and truing up the base plate and drilling most of the holes in it. I forgot to take my camera out with me the last episode, so all I have if the mockup of what I have so far.
What I did was not particularly photoworthy since it was kind of a redo of the hinge plate, just on the base plate. I simply drilled two holes in the base material so I could bolt it to the mill table then ran the end mill around the perimeter to true it up. Then I layed out the holes for the hinge plate and for the stiffener/handle bars. When I finished up they almost all line up. It did take a little filing on a couple of holes and a few more may take some later, but it all comes together very nicely.
The pictures show various shots of the base of the machine so far, again with the form sides only placed in position. I did drill two of the holes for the form sides and I put arrows in one of the pictures to point them out.
What I am going to do is drill corresponding holes in the upper end of the form side plates and then locate them, and then turn the whole thing upside down and try to drill holes throught the base plate and into the side plates so they are very accurate. I'm going to do that tomorrow.
Then I am going to fabficate the handles in my lathe. I'll take pictures of that. When they are bolted into place the base will be essentially complete.
The next phase will probably be the plastic holding frame, just because it will be the easiest of the next two things I will have to do. The other is to finish the male form which is going to take a lot of sculpting. That might be fun to watch. Stand by.
So, in tune with this insanity, here are some more pictures for this afternoon. I got some more done, but not quite as far as I had hoped. Of course I never do. What I got done was trimming and truing up the base plate and drilling most of the holes in it. I forgot to take my camera out with me the last episode, so all I have if the mockup of what I have so far.
What I did was not particularly photoworthy since it was kind of a redo of the hinge plate, just on the base plate. I simply drilled two holes in the base material so I could bolt it to the mill table then ran the end mill around the perimeter to true it up. Then I layed out the holes for the hinge plate and for the stiffener/handle bars. When I finished up they almost all line up. It did take a little filing on a couple of holes and a few more may take some later, but it all comes together very nicely.
The pictures show various shots of the base of the machine so far, again with the form sides only placed in position. I did drill two of the holes for the form sides and I put arrows in one of the pictures to point them out.
What I am going to do is drill corresponding holes in the upper end of the form side plates and then locate them, and then turn the whole thing upside down and try to drill holes throught the base plate and into the side plates so they are very accurate. I'm going to do that tomorrow.
Then I am going to fabficate the handles in my lathe. I'll take pictures of that. When they are bolted into place the base will be essentially complete.
The next phase will probably be the plastic holding frame, just because it will be the easiest of the next two things I will have to do. The other is to finish the male form which is going to take a lot of sculpting. That might be fun to watch. Stand by.