Time to Brag again
03-15-2010, 02:18 PM
#31
Rennlist Member
Thats not going around in a 4 wheel drift, its just going around in a push/ under control mode. (and yes, it is much faster than drifting around the skid pad as you say)
a 4 wheel drift is when you set up for a high speed turn and you are able to initiate the turn in and imeadiately straighten the wheels to apply all the g loading equally to the front and rear tires, giving the sliding sensation, or 4 wheel "drift". by definition, you couldnt really keep a car in a 4 wheel drift because you would fly out of orbit.
what you are doing is finding the speed at which you have maximum slip angle of the front, power and thus rear slip angle to keep the car on the circle.
on a small diameter skid pads, the what you usually see is a push, rolling into a loose condition, or both tires hooked up. If you get a 4 wheel drift going, its very brief, due to the speeds being so slow.
a 4 wheel drift is when you set up for a high speed turn and you are able to initiate the turn in and imeadiately straighten the wheels to apply all the g loading equally to the front and rear tires, giving the sliding sensation, or 4 wheel "drift". by definition, you couldnt really keep a car in a 4 wheel drift because you would fly out of orbit.
what you are doing is finding the speed at which you have maximum slip angle of the front, power and thus rear slip angle to keep the car on the circle.on a small diameter skid pads, the what you usually see is a push, rolling into a loose condition, or both tires hooked up. If you get a 4 wheel drift going, its very brief, due to the speeds being so slow.
Here is a short video of me showing what it looks like to 4 wheel drift a skid pad at my class.
928 GTS doing the skid pad
Note: This is NOT "Drifting". A 4 wheel drift is where both front and rear tires are at about a 7 to 10 degrees slip angle. That means both front and rear tires are pointed 7 to 10 degrees more into the turn from the direction they are actually traveling. Hence all the tire squealing. 7 to 10 degrees is the maximum cornering capability for tires on concrete or asphalt. "Drifting" is hanging out the rear end at far as you can get it. If you were to drift a corner you would be slower because the tire moving sideways brakes more than it turns the car. On lower friction surfaces like dirt or ice, the maximum slip angle increases to the point that "Drifting" actually is faster than a 4 wheel drift.
928 GTS doing the skid pad
Note: This is NOT "Drifting". A 4 wheel drift is where both front and rear tires are at about a 7 to 10 degrees slip angle. That means both front and rear tires are pointed 7 to 10 degrees more into the turn from the direction they are actually traveling. Hence all the tire squealing. 7 to 10 degrees is the maximum cornering capability for tires on concrete or asphalt. "Drifting" is hanging out the rear end at far as you can get it. If you were to drift a corner you would be slower because the tire moving sideways brakes more than it turns the car. On lower friction surfaces like dirt or ice, the maximum slip angle increases to the point that "Drifting" actually is faster than a 4 wheel drift.
03-15-2010, 02:45 PM
#32
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Most people that consider themselves hot shot drivers (but haven't actually raced or autocrossed) drive with their left hand at the top of the wheel and their right hand on the shifter. When you tell them to keep both hands on the wheel they morph into your 10 and 4 position. I guess because 4 seems closer to the shifter.
I may give it a go on April 4th with the first event up in NE.
Thanks again for the guidance.
03-15-2010, 04:48 PM
#33
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Mark, thanks for the complement I must really be smooth if it looks like I am pushing and lifting. I've had a couple of instructors tell me what you said until they rode with me and then the apologized and told me I was doing better than they were. Remember I am on street tires. They are much softer edged than race compounds. Your description of a 4 wheel drift is more of a 4 wheel slide, like a hockey stop not a 4 wheel drift. And no, you can't maintain that. Maintaining front and rear at maximum slip angles is what it's all about. And maximum slip angle us usually just a bit past where the tires start squealing. Typically 5mph on street tires from my observation.
Even with street tires it is difficult to maintain the 4 wheel drift all the way around the pad. Especially on an uneven surface. I assure you that even though in the video it looks like I am just pushing around, or all four hooked up but if you listen in the clip I have to make a lot of adjustments to the throttle to maintain speed and keep all four sliding. It also took a lot of tweaking the car setup to get both the front and rear slip speeds the same ie., balanced. Once you get it spot on the car almost feel greasy in the way it rotates in with a little throttle lift and slide out farther (no not push out the whole car just makes a bigger arc) with a little throttle in. In the demonstration I also showed what would happen if you added too much throttle (push then power oversteer), or snapped off the throttle (nose tuck then simple oversteer).
The Dunlop Direnza Star Specs I am running have a pretty sharp edge, there isn't much speed/slip angle difference between slipping a little and letting go. The tire with the widest slip angle or softest edge I've had on my cars is the Yokohama 032R rain tire. It has an amazing bandwidth of speed between when it starts sliding and it actually lets go.
Once I get the sway bars balanced for mid corner power on neutral handling (front and rear break loose at the same time as I slowly increase speed), I use the front rebound adjustment to help tune the throttle on steering for smaller versus larger radius turns. If it is pushing out under slight throttle and not sliding out I firm up the front rebound. If I get rear wheel spin when adding a little throttle I soften the front rebound. I try to keep it tuned for the average turn so in smaller turns it tends to push and a punch of power oversteer is needed to maintain a good drift, and larger turns it gets tail happy and a flick of countersteer is necessary to keep it going around and not spinning out.
Afshin, don't worry about your first couple autocross event. My first real autocross I thought I was a hot shot driver. My fastest time got me second...from last. The only driver slower than me was a girl that kept getting lost in the course. The other participants told me I had won the event because they could see my giant grin even though I was wearing a full face helmet. i think I drooled on myself a little during the laps. The only thing I remember from my instructor besides turning my windscreen wipers off was to tell me I didn't have to go thru the center of the gates.
Even with street tires it is difficult to maintain the 4 wheel drift all the way around the pad. Especially on an uneven surface. I assure you that even though in the video it looks like I am just pushing around, or all four hooked up but if you listen in the clip I have to make a lot of adjustments to the throttle to maintain speed and keep all four sliding. It also took a lot of tweaking the car setup to get both the front and rear slip speeds the same ie., balanced. Once you get it spot on the car almost feel greasy in the way it rotates in with a little throttle lift and slide out farther (no not push out the whole car just makes a bigger arc) with a little throttle in. In the demonstration I also showed what would happen if you added too much throttle (push then power oversteer), or snapped off the throttle (nose tuck then simple oversteer).
The Dunlop Direnza Star Specs I am running have a pretty sharp edge, there isn't much speed/slip angle difference between slipping a little and letting go. The tire with the widest slip angle or softest edge I've had on my cars is the Yokohama 032R rain tire. It has an amazing bandwidth of speed between when it starts sliding and it actually lets go.
Once I get the sway bars balanced for mid corner power on neutral handling (front and rear break loose at the same time as I slowly increase speed), I use the front rebound adjustment to help tune the throttle on steering for smaller versus larger radius turns. If it is pushing out under slight throttle and not sliding out I firm up the front rebound. If I get rear wheel spin when adding a little throttle I soften the front rebound. I try to keep it tuned for the average turn so in smaller turns it tends to push and a punch of power oversteer is needed to maintain a good drift, and larger turns it gets tail happy and a flick of countersteer is necessary to keep it going around and not spinning out.
Afshin, don't worry about your first couple autocross event. My first real autocross I thought I was a hot shot driver. My fastest time got me second...from last. The only driver slower than me was a girl that kept getting lost in the course. The other participants told me I had won the event because they could see my giant grin even though I was wearing a full face helmet. i think I drooled on myself a little during the laps. The only thing I remember from my instructor besides turning my windscreen wipers off was to tell me I didn't have to go thru the center of the gates.
Last edited by RKD in OKC; 03-15-2010 at 05:34 PM.
03-15-2010, 05:38 PM
#34
Rennlist Member
This is all great stuff.
Anthony, I'll check the northern NJ PCA for that clinic and hopefully get into it.
I've been putting this and DEs off for way too long now. At least in AX I'll only be killing cones if I screw up, so that won't be too bad. I'm sure trying to learn the course is going to be the biggest hurdle for me in the beginning.
I've known for a long time that the limiting factor anytime I drive my car is the loose nut behind the wheel. My car seems to be able to handle anything I throw at it and with the new brakes I just put on, I'll have to re-learn how to drive again (Anthony you may remember a certain back road in PA where I almost launched over you and your GTS when you decided to test the brakes.).
You mentioned running in the right car/skill level. Clearly I'll have to pick one.
I'm starting to get psyched.
Who wants to do an R-list 928 GTG at an Autocross this spring?
Anthony, I'll check the northern NJ PCA for that clinic and hopefully get into it.
I've been putting this and DEs off for way too long now. At least in AX I'll only be killing cones if I screw up, so that won't be too bad. I'm sure trying to learn the course is going to be the biggest hurdle for me in the beginning.
I've known for a long time that the limiting factor anytime I drive my car is the loose nut behind the wheel. My car seems to be able to handle anything I throw at it and with the new brakes I just put on, I'll have to re-learn how to drive again (Anthony you may remember a certain back road in PA where I almost launched over you and your GTS when you decided to test the brakes.
).You mentioned running in the right car/skill level. Clearly I'll have to pick one.
I'm starting to get psyched.
Who wants to do an R-list 928 GTG at an Autocross this spring?
I remember the brake incident well. Your driving skills show you know how to handle your car although you didn't see the launch pad I braked for and thought you were going to fly over me.
Brakes are on thing the heavy GTS has over the earlier cars. I am so accustomed to having the big brakes I forget that sometimes those behind me might not be able to stop as quickly.Thanks for having amazing reaction time. 
I have to agree with mark on the drift vs slide, at least from a DE perspective I have always heard everyone refer to what you call a slide as a drift. I was having lunch with David Donahue on Saturday and he mentioned he was drifting in the cold weather a bit at Daytona and we all accepted it as though he was sliding through the turns.
03-15-2010, 06:06 PM
#35
Race Director
Looks like you have good control, and FTD proves it.
If you want to go faster in a circle start by going as wide as you can, keep a steady throttle until the tires are wailing the whole lap. Then you can creep closer tighten up the lap by crabbing the steering and keeping throttle steady.
It is very delicate, and difficult in a street car setup. But try and use the throttle to break out the rear and steering wheel input to reduce the grip in the front. If you keep a steady speed and do quick yanking movements of the steering wheel you will get turn in and be back before the car starts pushing which will force out the rear when the balance unsettles.
Fun stuff, but it will cost a lot of rubber to get the last few % down.
If you want to go faster in a circle start by going as wide as you can, keep a steady throttle until the tires are wailing the whole lap. Then you can creep closer tighten up the lap by crabbing the steering and keeping throttle steady.
It is very delicate, and difficult in a street car setup. But try and use the throttle to break out the rear and steering wheel input to reduce the grip in the front. If you keep a steady speed and do quick yanking movements of the steering wheel you will get turn in and be back before the car starts pushing which will force out the rear when the balance unsettles.
Fun stuff, but it will cost a lot of rubber to get the last few % down.
03-15-2010, 06:41 PM
#36
Rennlist Member
Slip, drift, slide, its some level of slip angle for the tire, or all the tires, to varying degrees. (pick your definition)
Again,we are running street tires too in the Lemons car. I drive it no different, get no more tail wags, or pushes than the DOTs, its just a little slower
Dont worry, I think Ive been around enough cars to know what you are doing to get it to squeal around the circle course.
many of the set up things you talk about, can be "drive around" issues for most. reallly easy to make the car do whatever you want it to do in 1st gear, by driving style, because it is all about weight transfer, and in 1st gear there is lots of it.
The car looks great! nice going in the event!
mk
Again,we are running street tires too in the Lemons car. I drive it no different, get no more tail wags, or pushes than the DOTs, its just a little slower
Dont worry, I think Ive been around enough cars to know what you are doing to get it to squeal around the circle course.
many of the set up things you talk about, can be "drive around" issues for most. reallly easy to make the car do whatever you want it to do in 1st gear, by driving style, because it is all about weight transfer, and in 1st gear there is lots of it.
The car looks great! nice going in the event!
mk
Mark, thanks for the complement I must really be smooth if it looks like I am pushing and lifting. I've had a couple of instructors tell me what you said until they rode with me and then the apologized and told me I was doing better than they were. Remember I am on street tires. They are much softer edged than race compounds. Your description of a 4 wheel drift is more of a 4 wheel slide, like a hockey stop not a 4 wheel drift. And no, you can't maintain that. Maintaining front and rear at maximum slip angles is what it's all about. And maximum slip angle us usually just a bit past where the tires start squealing. Typically 5mph on street tires from my observation.
Even with street tires it is difficult to maintain the 4 wheel drift all the way around the pad. Especially on an uneven surface. I assure you that even though in the video it looks like I am just pushing around, or all four hooked up but if you listen in the clip I have to make a lot of adjustments to the throttle to maintain speed and keep all four sliding. It also took a lot of tweaking the car setup to get both the front and rear slip speeds the same ie., balanced. Once you get it spot on the car almost feel greasy in the way it rotates in with a little throttle lift and slide out farther (no not push out the whole car just makes a bigger arc) with a little throttle in. In the demonstration I also showed what would happen if you added too much throttle (push then power oversteer), or snapped off the throttle (nose tuck then simple oversteer).
The Dunlop Direnza Star Specs I am running have a pretty sharp edge, there isn't much speed/slip angle difference between slipping a little and letting go. The tire with the widest slip angle or softest edge I've had on my cars is the Yokohama 032R rain tire. It has an amazing bandwidth of speed between when it starts sliding and it actually lets go.
Once I get the sway bars balanced for mid corner power on neutral handling (front and rear break loose at the same time as I slowly increase speed), I use the front rebound adjustment to help tune the throttle on steering for smaller versus larger radius turns. If it is pushing out under slight throttle and not sliding out I firm up the front rebound. If I get rear wheel spin when adding a little throttle I soften the front rebound. I try to keep it tuned for the average turn so in smaller turns it tends to push and a punch of power oversteer is needed to maintain a good drift, and larger turns it gets tail happy and a flick of countersteer is necessary to keep it going around and not spinning out.
Afshin, don't worry about your first couple autocross event. My first real autocross I thought I was a hot shot driver. My fastest time got me second...from last. The only driver slower than me was a girl that kept getting lost in the course. The other participants told me I had won the event because they could see my giant grin even though I was wearing a full face helmet. i think I drooled on myself a little during the laps. The only thing I remember from my instructor besides turning my windscreen wipers off was to tell me I didn't have to go thru the center of the gates.
Even with street tires it is difficult to maintain the 4 wheel drift all the way around the pad. Especially on an uneven surface. I assure you that even though in the video it looks like I am just pushing around, or all four hooked up but if you listen in the clip I have to make a lot of adjustments to the throttle to maintain speed and keep all four sliding. It also took a lot of tweaking the car setup to get both the front and rear slip speeds the same ie., balanced. Once you get it spot on the car almost feel greasy in the way it rotates in with a little throttle lift and slide out farther (no not push out the whole car just makes a bigger arc) with a little throttle in. In the demonstration I also showed what would happen if you added too much throttle (push then power oversteer), or snapped off the throttle (nose tuck then simple oversteer).
The Dunlop Direnza Star Specs I am running have a pretty sharp edge, there isn't much speed/slip angle difference between slipping a little and letting go. The tire with the widest slip angle or softest edge I've had on my cars is the Yokohama 032R rain tire. It has an amazing bandwidth of speed between when it starts sliding and it actually lets go.
Once I get the sway bars balanced for mid corner power on neutral handling (front and rear break loose at the same time as I slowly increase speed), I use the front rebound adjustment to help tune the throttle on steering for smaller versus larger radius turns. If it is pushing out under slight throttle and not sliding out I firm up the front rebound. If I get rear wheel spin when adding a little throttle I soften the front rebound. I try to keep it tuned for the average turn so in smaller turns it tends to push and a punch of power oversteer is needed to maintain a good drift, and larger turns it gets tail happy and a flick of countersteer is necessary to keep it going around and not spinning out.
Afshin, don't worry about your first couple autocross event. My first real autocross I thought I was a hot shot driver. My fastest time got me second...from last. The only driver slower than me was a girl that kept getting lost in the course. The other participants told me I had won the event because they could see my giant grin even though I was wearing a full face helmet. i think I drooled on myself a little during the laps. The only thing I remember from my instructor besides turning my windscreen wipers off was to tell me I didn't have to go thru the center of the gates.
03-15-2010, 09:39 PM
#37
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
yeah yeah yeah, a good driver can drive around a LOT of setup mistakes and problems, but will Always be faster in a well setup car. i would MUCH RATHER have my car setup right, it is just a whole lot more fun to not have to fight it.
03-15-2010, 09:43 PM
#38
Rennlist Member
Yep, for the most part, but yes, if you want it to do what YOU want it to do and when you want it to do it, then of course, there is a LOT of value in a well set up car (for you). I dont think ive been any faster when the car has been set up better, but It does make it much easier to go fast. (and more fun)
I dont think ive been any faster when the car has been set up better, but It does make it much easier to go fast. (and more fun)
03-15-2010, 10:04 PM
#39
Race Director
RKD
Clearly you can drive.....your numerous FTD's prove that..... Add a near stock GTS (think HEAVY) on street tires (same as we use on the lemons racer just larger...we run 225/50-16) with just shock-spring mods....is even more impressive...
One thing you MUST try is a lightweight 928....its feels WORLDS different than a full weight 928....for example we were testing the lemons 928 (84 automatic, open diff, 2800lbs no driver) and had Seans 87 S4 5 speed (265-295 Toyo R888's on bilsteins-hypercoils-upgraded swaybars 3600lbs) but otherwise stock on track the same day.....granted the lap times between the two were similar (power to weight advantage to the S4 at 13.0 vs 14.3 for lemons)....but the FEEL is worlds different.....the lighter car is SO much more responsive..which makes if more fun to drive.... A lightweight S4+ with more power-brakes and bigger R comps is even better!!
Your 7-10 slip angle is interesting......all the driving books I have read say that most speed you can get out of a given set of tires is between about 4-10% slip angle....the example they typically give is the speed between 4-10 is just about the same....but the higher slip angle will cause the tires to generate MORE heat...which eventually might cause the tires to overheat and loose grip.....so if two drivers are turning the same lap times in the same cars with driver A at 4% and driver B at 10%.....the longer the race goes.....the more likely driver B's tires will overheat and his pace will drop..... I see this all the time in lemons or spec miata when drivers are pushing too hard
If you ever come out to Norcal....I'll let you drive the Lemons racer in a DE...or maybe an autox if I can find one....as I'd love to learn how to drive autox....
Clearly you can drive.....your numerous FTD's prove that..... Add a near stock GTS (think HEAVY) on street tires (same as we use on the lemons racer just larger...we run 225/50-16) with just shock-spring mods....is even more impressive...
One thing you MUST try is a lightweight 928....its feels WORLDS different than a full weight 928....for example we were testing the lemons 928 (84 automatic, open diff, 2800lbs no driver) and had Seans 87 S4 5 speed (265-295 Toyo R888's on bilsteins-hypercoils-upgraded swaybars 3600lbs) but otherwise stock on track the same day.....granted the lap times between the two were similar (power to weight advantage to the S4 at 13.0 vs 14.3 for lemons)....but the FEEL is worlds different.....the lighter car is SO much more responsive..which makes if more fun to drive.... A lightweight S4+ with more power-brakes and bigger R comps is even better!!
Your 7-10 slip angle is interesting......all the driving books I have read say that most speed you can get out of a given set of tires is between about 4-10% slip angle....the example they typically give is the speed between 4-10 is just about the same....but the higher slip angle will cause the tires to generate MORE heat...which eventually might cause the tires to overheat and loose grip.....so if two drivers are turning the same lap times in the same cars with driver A at 4% and driver B at 10%.....the longer the race goes.....the more likely driver B's tires will overheat and his pace will drop..... I see this all the time in lemons or spec miata when drivers are pushing too hard
If you ever come out to Norcal....I'll let you drive the Lemons racer in a DE...or maybe an autox if I can find one....as I'd love to learn how to drive autox....
03-16-2010, 01:19 AM
#40
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
From a magazine review of the 911 trubo.
"Albeit even with the PSM systems left on the car will allow slip angles up to around 8 or 9 degress, or what most tire companys deem the optimum slip angle is for the best corner speed."
I also overheard a Skip Barber Driving School instructor talking about some schools are teaching slip angles of up to 15° and that he considered 7 to 10 optimal with 10 the absolute upper limit.
Not that I can tell exactly just how many degrees of slip angle I am apexing at.
"Albeit even with the PSM systems left on the car will allow slip angles up to around 8 or 9 degress, or what most tire companys deem the optimum slip angle is for the best corner speed."
I also overheard a Skip Barber Driving School instructor talking about some schools are teaching slip angles of up to 15° and that he considered 7 to 10 optimal with 10 the absolute upper limit.
Not that I can tell exactly just how many degrees of slip angle I am apexing at.
Last edited by RKD in OKC; 03-16-2010 at 01:45 AM.
03-16-2010, 01:34 AM
#41
Race Director
Sounds like to much theory, easier to let lap times do the talking and test which is the fastest.
I would be the most boring theory teacher in the world when it comes to race schools. I would teach to trim in the feel and learn what the right feeling is.
Had a funny coaching incident this summer that could've gone really wrong. Was out with a 951 driver who had a good feel for what the car was doing but needed to get some input on a small list of things. Also he learned the race line instead of the DE-line when I was in the car with him, not sure how he picked that up..
Anyway, after a few good laps I told him to drop me off. When we stopped in the pits I said to him that he can't do much better when it comes to technicalities. If he wants to go faster it's all about guts.
Half an hour later the guy comes flying out of last turn leading to main straight, dipped a wheel outside of curbs - shot across the track and went through a gravel trap onto a service road.. Blipped throttle, hit 2nd and went out on a cool down lap... There was some damage on the car, but mostly in his ego. But he confirmed that I was right, he had never gone as fast before or driven with that much confidence.
I would be the most boring theory teacher in the world when it comes to race schools. I would teach to trim in the feel and learn what the right feeling is.
Had a funny coaching incident this summer that could've gone really wrong. Was out with a 951 driver who had a good feel for what the car was doing but needed to get some input on a small list of things. Also he learned the race line instead of the DE-line when I was in the car with him, not sure how he picked that up..
Anyway, after a few good laps I told him to drop me off. When we stopped in the pits I said to him that he can't do much better when it comes to technicalities. If he wants to go faster it's all about guts.
Half an hour later the guy comes flying out of last turn leading to main straight, dipped a wheel outside of curbs - shot across the track and went through a gravel trap onto a service road.. Blipped throttle, hit 2nd and went out on a cool down lap... There was some damage on the car, but mostly in his ego. But he confirmed that I was right, he had never gone as fast before or driven with that much confidence.
03-16-2010, 01:35 AM
#42
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Having a well setup car in autocross makes a 2 to 4 second difference in a 70 second lap time on a 1 mile long course with about 26 turns. Despite going slower than your track speeds things happen faster and small adjustments can make a big enough difference you just can't drive around em if they are wrong.
Since you are running one lap at a time then waiting your turn, tire heat more often than not is something you want. With the exception being an overly hot day. Last Sunday the ambient temps were around 62 when I did my first session of 4 laps, by the time the second session of four laps came around the ambient temps had dropped to 60 degrees. I was unable to match my fastest lap in the first session by a full second.
Since you are running one lap at a time then waiting your turn, tire heat more often than not is something you want. With the exception being an overly hot day. Last Sunday the ambient temps were around 62 when I did my first session of 4 laps, by the time the second session of four laps came around the ambient temps had dropped to 60 degrees. I was unable to match my fastest lap in the first session by a full second.
03-16-2010, 09:51 AM
#43
Rennlist Member
From a magazine review of the 911 trubo.
"Albeit even with the PSM systems left on the car will allow slip angles up to around 8 or 9 degress, or what most tire companys deem the optimum slip angle is for the best corner speed."
I also overheard a Skip Barber Driving School instructor talking about some schools are teaching slip angles of up to 15° and that he considered 7 to 10 optimal with 10 the absolute upper limit.
Not that I can tell exactly just how many degrees of slip angle I am apexing at.
"Albeit even with the PSM systems left on the car will allow slip angles up to around 8 or 9 degress, or what most tire companys deem the optimum slip angle is for the best corner speed."
I also overheard a Skip Barber Driving School instructor talking about some schools are teaching slip angles of up to 15° and that he considered 7 to 10 optimal with 10 the absolute upper limit.
Not that I can tell exactly just how many degrees of slip angle I am apexing at.
03-16-2010, 10:51 AM
#44
Craic Head
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
IIRC the Cayman S with PSM off will kick back in automatically if slip angle exceeds 10°. I have to admit they are such easy cars to drive fast. We use the local Fire department to wet down our skid pads to prevent heat buildup and tire wear for the Clinic. A less costly way to get people aware of slip angles and throttle steering.
