Stroker Scraper Kit
10-30-2009, 07:27 PM
#91
Rennlist Member
I just added up the hours and its near 100hours of racing on the Holbert engine. and really hard street driving. keep in mind, the drives to the track or to the store on the weekends were always filled with 60-100mph runs and a few redline shifts. Thats over 7 years!!
If there was a design weakness with oiling, wouldnt I have seen some of it by then? 105 race days, 6 world challenge GT 50 min races races, 100s of laps around tracks with sweeping 80mph 180degree turns, at g loadign over 1.4, etc. no add on oil coolers, no scrapers, no breathers, no accusump, no oil pressure below 4 bar in the worse case senarios, and usually above 5 bar always, even at 250F engine oil temp on 100F degree track days, Amsoil, brand of racing oil with Zinc, and a religous warm up ritchual.
If there was a design weakness with oiling, wouldnt I have seen some of it by then? 105 race days, 6 world challenge GT 50 min races races, 100s of laps around tracks with sweeping 80mph 180degree turns, at g loadign over 1.4, etc. no add on oil coolers, no scrapers, no breathers, no accusump, no oil pressure below 4 bar in the worse case senarios, and usually above 5 bar always, even at 250F engine oil temp on 100F degree track days, Amsoil, brand of racing oil with Zinc, and a religous warm up ritchual.
10-30-2009, 08:56 PM
#92
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-snip-
What do you mean I dont beat the rpms in the corners. I use the highest rpm possible out of the corners, as anyone that knows what they are doing, would do. I challenge you to find ONE turn where Im in the wrong gear, or could be in a lower gear for any turn. I even redline out of the corkscrew in 2nd at laguna to gain valuble tenths, where many use 3rd.
What do you mean I dont beat the rpms in the corners. I use the highest rpm possible out of the corners, as anyone that knows what they are doing, would do. I challenge you to find ONE turn where Im in the wrong gear, or could be in a lower gear for any turn. I even redline out of the corkscrew in 2nd at laguna to gain valuble tenths, where many use 3rd.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Originally Posted by Tom. M 8-7-2008
I was just going on what you posted a while back..talking about going into hard lefts and short shifting..can't remember when..but I think..that combined with no squirters (less aeration of the oil) and likely tighter hand built tolerances..is the main reason it's done so good.. How many miles are there on the Holbert motor..doesn't sound like it was run hard until you got it...
Originally Posted by Mark 8-7-2008
I think i remember. Basically a style that doesnt have the engine at high rpms during the turns. better for the engine and better for exit power.
mk
mk
Sigh.
Aside: Mark, while looking this up I saw a post from Nicole -- I did not realize you lost the Holbert car due to a track accident. I am truly sorry about that. I was told about this thread by another lister a few days ago. I simply do not follow the Rennlist regularly, I am afraid.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Edit:
Originally Posted by previous IJ product description
With regards to the fatal problem of oil aeration, the Ishihara-Johnson 928 windage control system allowed the Dutch Stallion team to run their wet-sumped 928 S4 engine at typical rpms of 6800 for the first half of the 43 hour 2006 season (not including practice) and 7200 for the second half with stable oil pressure. This was accompanied by a 10 degree Celsius drop in coolant temperature from the previous years engine which had less power. This years engine is NA and develops 420 rwhp. To our knowledge safely running this sustained rpm level in the wetsump engine is unprecedented in the history of this engine.
Prior to the installation of the windage control system when they attempted to run their engine at 6800 rpm it failed in two days. [I believe the RWHP on this NA engine was 380]
Prior to the installation of the windage control system when they attempted to run their engine at 6800 rpm it failed in two days. [I believe the RWHP on this NA engine was 380]
While this was going on, Rob had been telling me that the European racing season for their cars involved many more hours than was typical in the US. This is confirmed by Mark's calculation of hours -- roughly 300% more hours per season -- not including practice.
Keep these things in mind when evaluating claims.
Last edited by Kevin Johnson; 10-30-2009 at 10:38 PM.
10-30-2009, 10:45 PM
#93
Nordschleife Master
Thanks, Kevin. You found an exchange that addressed what I was saying about RPMs in the corner.
The track driven is important. I looked up those tracks you mentioned. Laguna Seca and Buttonwillow and short and have a lot of corners. LS has 11 in 2.2 miles. Buttonwillow has like 10 configurations with the longest one being 3 miles and call it 15 corners. BW is so configurable it's crazy, and it looks like fun. Thunderhill is 3 miles and 15 corners.
RA has 14 numbered corners in 4 miles but 3 aren't real. There's how things are numbered and corners that make you brake or at least lift. Maybe you'd like to clarify how many "real" corners at at those tracks. At least my home track of BIR is crisp: 3.1 miles and 10 corners.
Then there's how the corners are distributed and how long the longest straights are.
Working the averages:
LS 0.2 miles per corner
BW 0.2 miles per corner. Less for shorter tracks.
TH 0.2 as well
RA 0.36
BIR 0.3
With more space between corners the longer tracks allow for longer acceleration times and then higher brake forces at the corners. A critical problem with these cars is foaming oil. That happens with RPM and time. Cornering with foamy oil allows the pickup to slurp air or foam.
It's not a criticism. You run where you run and how the car is driven is obviously going to affect wear.
Besides, Mark, how do you explain not having a failed rod bearing? It ain't Amsoil. That was what I was running.
The track driven is important. I looked up those tracks you mentioned. Laguna Seca and Buttonwillow and short and have a lot of corners. LS has 11 in 2.2 miles. Buttonwillow has like 10 configurations with the longest one being 3 miles and call it 15 corners. BW is so configurable it's crazy, and it looks like fun. Thunderhill is 3 miles and 15 corners.
RA has 14 numbered corners in 4 miles but 3 aren't real. There's how things are numbered and corners that make you brake or at least lift. Maybe you'd like to clarify how many "real" corners at at those tracks. At least my home track of BIR is crisp: 3.1 miles and 10 corners.
Then there's how the corners are distributed and how long the longest straights are.
Working the averages:
LS 0.2 miles per corner
BW 0.2 miles per corner. Less for shorter tracks.
TH 0.2 as well
RA 0.36
BIR 0.3
With more space between corners the longer tracks allow for longer acceleration times and then higher brake forces at the corners. A critical problem with these cars is foaming oil. That happens with RPM and time. Cornering with foamy oil allows the pickup to slurp air or foam.
It's not a criticism. You run where you run and how the car is driven is obviously going to affect wear.
Besides, Mark, how do you explain not having a failed rod bearing? It ain't Amsoil. That was what I was running.
10-31-2009, 02:14 AM
#94
Rennlist Member
subtle differences, becuase it really depends on how long you are at those high rpm ranges, and it doesn make much of a difference if you are in 2nd 3rd and 4th, for near 17 seconds full throttle, or coming off the final turn at road america for 17 seconds down the main straight going through 2nd, 3rd and 4th as well. In fact, the final turn at T-hill would start that progresssion at a high g loading for several seconds before heading down the main straight, but rpms near max out. and 5 seconds after the first turn, you would have a carocell of 80mph going for 7 -9 seconds in the upper RPM range, but not over 5500rpm. I see your point about time at high rpm ranges and some of the tracks like RA, do have 3 longer straights, but, that really is more rest for the engine oiling, as with Thunderhill for example, you would be turning and pulling max Gs more often. Im sure there are trade offs and some of them might cause issues, but from what I saw at Road America, my oil pressure never dropped and I spent 2 days on the track beating the engine up pretty hard. hitting near redline on all 3 of the long straight at near 154mph.
to your last point, all of the corners of t-hill , laguna and Buttonwillow are real turns. usually very hard braking zones or very high g loading. you have 2 examples of video for how long Im at high rpm and how long I spend in the turns. You could get a ratio or time spent at high rpm, in turns, in turns at high rpm, etc, and draw some type of comparison. personally, I dont think my car would have any issues with any tracks configuration if i could survive thunderhill turn 2 or RA's carocell.
Keep in mind that some of the highest deceleration forces will be from the slower top speeds going into turns. I think the only valid point is how long those turns are, and maybe how long the preceding straight was where you might have been at average, higher rpm longer. However, the high rpms when I race are fairly sustained and follow an average that is near the same at most any track. Ill have to time the high rpm segments and get back to you on that one.
someone asked, how many hours were on the motor and chassis when I got it. It was 18,000miles. the engine was retired at 48,000 with 105 race days over 7 full seasons. The short block still looks like new.
to your last point, all of the corners of t-hill , laguna and Buttonwillow are real turns. usually very hard braking zones or very high g loading. you have 2 examples of video for how long Im at high rpm and how long I spend in the turns. You could get a ratio or time spent at high rpm, in turns, in turns at high rpm, etc, and draw some type of comparison. personally, I dont think my car would have any issues with any tracks configuration if i could survive thunderhill turn 2 or RA's carocell.
Keep in mind that some of the highest deceleration forces will be from the slower top speeds going into turns. I think the only valid point is how long those turns are, and maybe how long the preceding straight was where you might have been at average, higher rpm longer. However, the high rpms when I race are fairly sustained and follow an average that is near the same at most any track. Ill have to time the high rpm segments and get back to you on that one.
someone asked, how many hours were on the motor and chassis when I got it. It was 18,000miles. the engine was retired at 48,000 with 105 race days over 7 full seasons. The short block still looks like new.
Thanks, Kevin. You found an exchange that addressed what I was saying about RPMs in the corner.
The track driven is important. I looked up those tracks you mentioned. Laguna Seca and Buttonwillow and short and have a lot of corners. LS has 11 in 2.2 miles. Buttonwillow has like 10 configurations with the longest one being 3 miles and call it 15 corners. BW is so configurable it's crazy, and it looks like fun. Thunderhill is 3 miles and 15 corners.
RA has 14 numbered corners in 4 miles but 3 aren't real. There's how things are numbered and corners that make you brake or at least lift. Maybe you'd like to clarify how many "real" corners at at those tracks. At least my home track of BIR is crisp: 3.1 miles and 10 corners.
Then there's how the corners are distributed and how long the longest straights are.
Working the averages:
LS 0.2 miles per corner
BW 0.2 miles per corner. Less for shorter tracks.
TH 0.2 as well
RA 0.36
BIR 0.3
With more space between corners the longer tracks allow for longer acceleration times and then higher brake forces at the corners. A critical problem with these cars is foaming oil. That happens with RPM and time. Cornering with foamy oil allows the pickup to slurp air or foam.
It's not a criticism. You run where you run and how the car is driven is obviously going to affect wear.
Besides, Mark, how do you explain not having a failed rod bearing? It ain't Amsoil. That was what I was running.
The track driven is important. I looked up those tracks you mentioned. Laguna Seca and Buttonwillow and short and have a lot of corners. LS has 11 in 2.2 miles. Buttonwillow has like 10 configurations with the longest one being 3 miles and call it 15 corners. BW is so configurable it's crazy, and it looks like fun. Thunderhill is 3 miles and 15 corners.
RA has 14 numbered corners in 4 miles but 3 aren't real. There's how things are numbered and corners that make you brake or at least lift. Maybe you'd like to clarify how many "real" corners at at those tracks. At least my home track of BIR is crisp: 3.1 miles and 10 corners.
Then there's how the corners are distributed and how long the longest straights are.
Working the averages:
LS 0.2 miles per corner
BW 0.2 miles per corner. Less for shorter tracks.
TH 0.2 as well
RA 0.36
BIR 0.3
With more space between corners the longer tracks allow for longer acceleration times and then higher brake forces at the corners. A critical problem with these cars is foaming oil. That happens with RPM and time. Cornering with foamy oil allows the pickup to slurp air or foam.
It's not a criticism. You run where you run and how the car is driven is obviously going to affect wear.
Besides, Mark, how do you explain not having a failed rod bearing? It ain't Amsoil. That was what I was running.
10-31-2009, 11:50 AM
#95
Nordschleife Master
I'd like to see actual telemetry from 928s and measure bearing wear but that ain't happening.
(repeating from other threads...)
My theory is that the oil gets foamed under acceleration. The oil rolls out of the front sump (bad idea #1 there) and back along the gently-sloped pan (bad idea #2) into the rotating assembly. It gets whipped up into foam and aerosol droplets. This is when 928s belch oil smoke. (And get black flagged.) In the following corner the oil sloshes away in the wide, flat sump. (Bad idea #3) and the pickup gets foam or air.
The I-J system addresses bad ideas #1 and #2 directly. As it knocks down the windage cloud and prevents foaming the oil there's more liquid in the sump so the scraper indirectly addresses Bad Idea #3.
Bad Idea #4 is the way the crank is drilled. I've set my rev limiter to 6300 to help that.
I'd still like to hear why you think your engine has lasted.
Last edited by GlenL; 10-31-2009 at 12:18 PM.
10-31-2009, 06:08 PM
#96
Nordschleife Master
Has anybody looked at oil pressure vs rpm etc on a skid pad continuously going in a high G circle?
Keep an eye on oil pressure, and maybe effects could be seen and rpm reduced without engine damage.
Keep an eye on oil pressure, and maybe effects could be seen and rpm reduced without engine damage.
11-01-2009, 07:53 AM
#97
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I think it was Schrick that performed the multi-axis dyno replication of the Ring for Porsche. I think they could determine how, why, when. $^3
Cosworth had a good approach. Install a pressure sensor immediately after the pump. Install another in the 2/6 circuit. Install another in a different main feed. Record along with lateral Gs.
Probably never going to happen.
Another thing that would influence collection of oil in the rear of the pan is the grade or slope of the road. When I look at pans for drag racers one of the questions I ask is how much wheel lift is present on launch.
Aside: I doubt that grade was considered by Schrick in the modeling but everyone knows the Ring is a perfectly flat course.
Length: 20.8 km
Upward slope: max. 17%
Downward slope: max. 11%
Altitude difference: approx. 300 m
11-01-2009, 08:02 AM
#98
Nordschleife Master
Maybe Glen's theory holds some merit as the stroker cars see less failures because they accelerate for less time due to the increased power, and spend more time braking because of the higher speed......
11-01-2009, 10:53 AM
#99
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I have a Formula Ford block and stock partially counterweighted Formula Ford crank sitting next to me. The RPM potential with this crank is well known. It has but one oiling hole per pin.
In the shop I have a: Porsche 924 2.0, single cross drilled pins; Porsche 944, single cross drilled pins; Porsche 928; single cross drilled pins.
Nissan FJ24; single cross drilled pins.
Mazda BP/BF: single cross drilled pins.
Why is this short list important? First, it is possible for a racing engine to survive with one oiling hole per pin. Second, the OEMs all will have been very familiar with the Formula Ford engine prior to their own engine development. The OEMs tear down competitors products. My gosh, the Kent powered the Mazda Elan, er... the Lotus Miata, er ... the Lotus Elan. Third, three different OEMs independently determine that they will be using a single cross drilling for their pins. All these engines have been independently and extensively tested. All these engines, save the 928, have been extensively raced by the manufacturer. None has gone to double cross drilling.
Edit: We must look to see if the F1 V6 that is a derivative of the V8 in the 928 used double cross drilled cranks.
Last edited by Kevin Johnson; 11-01-2009 at 11:46 AM.
11-01-2009, 12:26 PM
#100
Rennlist Member
Is it WOT time we are talking about or high rpm? even though a track might have a short straight and a tight turn, the engine might still be at the same average rpm and same peak rpm duration. in fact, i contend that a shorter straight curve might have the same rpm peaks, BUT more g loading to the engine, because the forces will be higher at the lower speeds (i.e under braking and WOT acceleration)
There is a "might" about rpm durations as your last comment points to. If WOT is a factor, lets discuss, but I dont think it is, other than its ability to pull some of the vent oil into the engine if it has accumlated in the intake. and no, you can see from my videos, im hammering the engine on all turn exits and it is in the correct gear to do so. Think about this carefully: coming out of turn 3 at laguna, exit is in 3rd, and it runs up to about 6000rpm before a quick stab of the brakes for 4th, 5500rpm on the exit of T4, and up to redline to turn 5, a quick stab and toss of the car 4500rpm WOT on the exit to heading up to turn 6, 6400rpm, quick stab of the brakes, exit at 5500rpm and the long climb to the corkscrew as it bangs off the revlimiter on approach to a low speed turn.
what im showing here is a use of the engine that might have equal effect to foaming the oil, vs running it on a longer track where the engine is going straight through 1 more gear before a hard decel approach to a turn. Yes, you should look at some telemetry charts. I have some for laguna and thunderhill and someone posted some great ones for Cal Speedway for a cars near the same performance as the original Holbert engine'd set up.
Now, why my engine(s) have lasted as long as they have. amsoil, (good oil that doesnt break down under high temps), a careful warm up before any racing or high rpm. correct gears selected on the track. (e.g. there is no need to run at max rpm arond a turn, when you are not requiring full power. better to run around the turn at slightly under max hp, so you have a a gear to accelerate out of the turn. ) In otherwords, I wouldnt drive around the carrocel in a gear requiring 6000rpm to only have 500rpm on the exit, when I could be at 4500rpm around the turn still having abilty to throttle steer and have near max hp and beyond through the exit.
Again, all of this is best analysed by looking at telemtry sheets or comparing video and using a stop watch for what you are lookng for. Ill see if I can post a RA video, and you can compare it to a laguna or Thunderhill video. (time duration at WOT, braking, during turns, time at near max rpm, etc.)
mk
There is a "might" about rpm durations as your last comment points to. If WOT is a factor, lets discuss, but I dont think it is, other than its ability to pull some of the vent oil into the engine if it has accumlated in the intake. and no, you can see from my videos, im hammering the engine on all turn exits and it is in the correct gear to do so. Think about this carefully: coming out of turn 3 at laguna, exit is in 3rd, and it runs up to about 6000rpm before a quick stab of the brakes for 4th, 5500rpm on the exit of T4, and up to redline to turn 5, a quick stab and toss of the car 4500rpm WOT on the exit to heading up to turn 6, 6400rpm, quick stab of the brakes, exit at 5500rpm and the long climb to the corkscrew as it bangs off the revlimiter on approach to a low speed turn.
what im showing here is a use of the engine that might have equal effect to foaming the oil, vs running it on a longer track where the engine is going straight through 1 more gear before a hard decel approach to a turn. Yes, you should look at some telemetry charts. I have some for laguna and thunderhill and someone posted some great ones for Cal Speedway for a cars near the same performance as the original Holbert engine'd set up.
Now, why my engine(s) have lasted as long as they have. amsoil, (good oil that doesnt break down under high temps), a careful warm up before any racing or high rpm. correct gears selected on the track. (e.g. there is no need to run at max rpm arond a turn, when you are not requiring full power. better to run around the turn at slightly under max hp, so you have a a gear to accelerate out of the turn. ) In otherwords, I wouldnt drive around the carrocel in a gear requiring 6000rpm to only have 500rpm on the exit, when I could be at 4500rpm around the turn still having abilty to throttle steer and have near max hp and beyond through the exit.
Again, all of this is best analysed by looking at telemtry sheets or comparing video and using a stop watch for what you are lookng for. Ill see if I can post a RA video, and you can compare it to a laguna or Thunderhill video. (time duration at WOT, braking, during turns, time at near max rpm, etc.)
mk
The differences aren't subtle. Track layouts vary substantially and the above numbers point to that. Since races, and DE sessions, are set up by time a longer track, that is one with more distance between corners, will have more WOT time, higher speeds and less cornering time.
I'd like to see actual telemetry from 928s and measure bearing wear but that ain't happening.
Ah! Here's the critical point. Going up through the gears at WOT isn't resting the oil. That's when foam is being created. The only oil rest time is in the braking zone and in the corner before rolling on the throttle. The corner is bad for the engine if the pickup hits foam or air.
(repeating from other threads...)
My theory is that the oil gets foamed under acceleration. The oil rolls out of the front sump (bad idea #1 there) and back along the gently-sloped pan (bad idea #2) into the rotating assembly. It gets whipped up into foam and aerosol droplets. This is when 928s belch oil smoke. (And get black flagged.) In the following corner the oil sloshes away in the wide, flat sump. (Bad idea #3) and the pickup gets foam or air.
The I-J system addresses bad ideas #1 and #2 directly. As it knocks down the windage cloud and prevents foaming the oil there's more liquid in the sump so the scraper indirectly addresses Bad Idea #3.
Bad Idea #4 is the way the crank is drilled. I've set my rev limiter to 6300 to help that.
This requires real data. Shorter straights tend to go to tighter corners but the drivers are going for max braking and lateral accelerations in all cases. I do.
This is the crux of my argument. There's really no "might" in having a longer straight resulting in longer high RPM times. Are you feathering the throttle outside of corners? Not good for lap times. (lol)
I'd still like to hear why you think your engine has lasted.
I'd like to see actual telemetry from 928s and measure bearing wear but that ain't happening.
Ah! Here's the critical point. Going up through the gears at WOT isn't resting the oil. That's when foam is being created. The only oil rest time is in the braking zone and in the corner before rolling on the throttle. The corner is bad for the engine if the pickup hits foam or air.
(repeating from other threads...)
My theory is that the oil gets foamed under acceleration. The oil rolls out of the front sump (bad idea #1 there) and back along the gently-sloped pan (bad idea #2) into the rotating assembly. It gets whipped up into foam and aerosol droplets. This is when 928s belch oil smoke. (And get black flagged.) In the following corner the oil sloshes away in the wide, flat sump. (Bad idea #3) and the pickup gets foam or air.
The I-J system addresses bad ideas #1 and #2 directly. As it knocks down the windage cloud and prevents foaming the oil there's more liquid in the sump so the scraper indirectly addresses Bad Idea #3.
Bad Idea #4 is the way the crank is drilled. I've set my rev limiter to 6300 to help that.
This requires real data. Shorter straights tend to go to tighter corners but the drivers are going for max braking and lateral accelerations in all cases. I do.
This is the crux of my argument. There's really no "might" in having a longer straight resulting in longer high RPM times. Are you feathering the throttle outside of corners? Not good for lap times. (lol)
I'd still like to hear why you think your engine has lasted.
11-01-2009, 12:34 PM
#101
Rennlist Member
I ran the 200-240hp 4.7 for a few years, the 5 liter part euro for a couple of seasons, and then the stock 5 liter holbert motor for 7 full racing season. the Stroker has completed a full season and a little more, so I dont think the acceleration forces on the oil in the pan is a factor. the differences are vary subtle. after all, during track speeds, the gs are very low braking g forces might be the same, but from higher speeds, they might be a tad longer.
11-01-2009, 12:37 PM
#102
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Mark brings up a good point about making sure the engine (and oil) is well warmed up. There are low viscosity oils that have an inverse relation with air entrainment and temperature. I am guessing this is what bit BMW with the M50-54 and the pump failures.
Mark, maybe you can convince Amsoil to release raw data on the testing of their automotive/racing oils with respect to these industry standards:
http://www.astm.org/Standards/D892.htm
http://www.astm.org/Standards/D6894.htm
Mark, maybe you can convince Amsoil to release raw data on the testing of their automotive/racing oils with respect to these industry standards:
http://www.astm.org/Standards/D892.htm
http://www.astm.org/Standards/D6894.htm
11-01-2009, 08:07 PM
#103
Nordschleife Master
Both!
WOT is maximizing acceleration and that's doing two things: making oil leave the sump and preventing oil from flowing down the pan. These are things I explored in BenchRace.xls. Take a look if you've got it. According to the calculations forwards acceleration (my car) prevents oil from flowing down the pan until somewhere in 5th gear. Until then it's building up at the back of the pan and being fed into the rotating assembly. Frappe!
As for driving style, you've described down-shifting in corners at a point where the RPMs in the lower gear are minimized. That's easy on the engine.
WOT is maximizing acceleration and that's doing two things: making oil leave the sump and preventing oil from flowing down the pan. These are things I explored in BenchRace.xls. Take a look if you've got it. According to the calculations forwards acceleration (my car) prevents oil from flowing down the pan until somewhere in 5th gear. Until then it's building up at the back of the pan and being fed into the rotating assembly. Frappe!
As for driving style, you've described down-shifting in corners at a point where the RPMs in the lower gear are minimized. That's easy on the engine.
02-08-2010, 06:22 PM
#104
Developer
Thread Starter
The crank scraper and windage system for the stroker cranks is finished.
I did this concurrently with the development of an oil pan spacer kit (different thread)
I have tons of photos, but here are the two you want: with scrapers installed and with final windage one-way oil baffling screens installed.
We have used the one-way screen before on last year's windage tray from IJ, and it works well.
I did this concurrently with the development of an oil pan spacer kit (different thread)
I have tons of photos, but here are the two you want: with scrapers installed and with final windage one-way oil baffling screens installed.
We have used the one-way screen before on last year's windage tray from IJ, and it works well.
