Stroker Scraper Kit
10-30-2009, 03:08 PM
#76
Developer
Thread Starter
Kibort -
Really. You have got to Google and do a little research on crank scrapers. Their value is beyond question and they have been in use, tested, and tested again for the last 50 years.
Taking down a new 350Z engine - this one, in fact: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qt8YD...eature=related
there was a full factory scraper and windage system in the oil pan from the factory. Was I surprised? No.
I would have only been surprised if it wasn't there.
Really. You have got to Google and do a little research on crank scrapers. Their value is beyond question and they have been in use, tested, and tested again for the last 50 years.
Taking down a new 350Z engine - this one, in fact: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qt8YD...eature=related
there was a full factory scraper and windage system in the oil pan from the factory. Was I surprised? No.
I would have only been surprised if it wasn't there.
10-30-2009, 03:13 PM
#77
Rennlist Member
I will check it out. where is the video that was posted that one of the 928'ers did that was so conclusive? what was this video link supposed to show. 20hp gain with the 928M turbo impeller? what does that have to do with crank scrapers, except for the fact that this totally unrelated engine to the 928, has one.
I also have to wonder if all engine designs benefit. after all, its not like the 928 crank is submerged in the oil pan oil level. Plus, all the knife edge crank designs should reduce this issue, if there is one. again, dont you think Greg has some good points on the subject and exposing some of the potential dangers?
mk
I also have to wonder if all engine designs benefit. after all, its not like the 928 crank is submerged in the oil pan oil level. Plus, all the knife edge crank designs should reduce this issue, if there is one. again, dont you think Greg has some good points on the subject and exposing some of the potential dangers?
mk
Kibort -
Really. You have got to Google and do a little research on crank scrapers. Their value is beyond question and they have been in use, tested, and tested again for the last 50 years.
Taking down a new 350Z engine - this one, in fact: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qt8YD...eature=related
there was a full factory scraper and windage system in the oil pan from the factory. Was I surprised? No.
I would have only been surprised if it wasn't there.
Really. You have got to Google and do a little research on crank scrapers. Their value is beyond question and they have been in use, tested, and tested again for the last 50 years.
Taking down a new 350Z engine - this one, in fact: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qt8YD...eature=related
there was a full factory scraper and windage system in the oil pan from the factory. Was I surprised? No.
I would have only been surprised if it wasn't there.
10-30-2009, 03:19 PM
#78
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you can see my videos. all shifts are at or near redline, you cant push the engine any harder than I am. WOT is WOT and redline is redline, and duration between drivers will be minimum. The times I run are top WC touring times at a track near you. After running 7 full racing seasons, and no issues, along with that engine taken apart and oil analysed to see what was happening, that could be a clue that things are good with wear patterns under extreme use.
you tell me of how this engine could be pushed harder at one of the most demanding tracks in the world.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddvWNNBDEp4
Anyway, if you are not racing the 928, its probably not an issue. 5% HP saved is very optimistic and not proven. for example, dry sumped vs non drysumped has not yeilded any HP gains in the countless dyno runs between Mark A and Joe F and their identical engines. in fact the stock set up from Joe , has generally made more HP. Plus, that number is very dependent on several factors. rate of change of acceleration , being the most dominant. are we talking quick revs , like blips for shifs, 1st gear or 5th gear??? These are HUGE factors for HP savings. Just saying 5%, is plain silly.
I would be more concerned with the return of the oil to the pan, as Greg B has mentioned. Factory designs vs us using napkin drawings of how it should be designed, is a little risky, in my opinion.
mk
you tell me of how this engine could be pushed harder at one of the most demanding tracks in the world.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddvWNNBDEp4
Anyway, if you are not racing the 928, its probably not an issue. 5% HP saved is very optimistic and not proven. for example, dry sumped vs non drysumped has not yeilded any HP gains in the countless dyno runs between Mark A and Joe F and their identical engines. in fact the stock set up from Joe , has generally made more HP. Plus, that number is very dependent on several factors. rate of change of acceleration , being the most dominant. are we talking quick revs , like blips for shifs, 1st gear or 5th gear??? These are HUGE factors for HP savings. Just saying 5%, is plain silly.
I would be more concerned with the return of the oil to the pan, as Greg B has mentioned. Factory designs vs us using napkin drawings of how it should be designed, is a little risky, in my opinion.
mk
Ok, I will rephrase it. I am very impressed with your ability to avoid rod bearing oiling problems in the stock engine.
Moving on.
I did not say it was a 928 dry sump. It was a power improvement on a dry sump system that has been a defacto standard for about 35 years in the series. It was measured on the dyno by a multi-championship engine builder. He told me he was shooting for another championship so I held off talking about it for a while. Mind you, we have been selling this combination of parts for maybe a year already (?). This is in a series where gains of one or two hp are significant. A 5% bolt on is pretty dramatic. One thing is for sure, I could probably charge many times more for it. Oh well.
My Great Uncle told me a story about going to lunch with some engineers from Bell Telephone. They got into a big technical discussion and it was not until they wanted to leave that they noticed they had written all over the tablecloth. They had to take it with them.
10-30-2009, 03:25 PM
#80
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Check out the inverted 12 cylinder aircraft engines. A crank scraper would be difficult to fit -- at least using the stock crankcase covers. They did fit one to the Merlin V12 -- maybe you've heard of that one? Seventy years ago.
10-30-2009, 03:54 PM
#82
Rennlist Member
Its interesting that there is no interest in why my engine has lasted with more racing days than any 928engine on the planet. (not to mention scots, and my new engine as well). you metion scrapers from other engines and fiind one that would not apply, but i would think there might be a lot more, and each one would be effected differently by the crank/oil in sump interaction. In fact, that also is RPM related, and teh 350Z engine that Carl referenced, im sure, was tach'ing out over the 6600rpm our engines run at. AND,based on most of our HP/torque curve, it is useless to shift any higher (except with some real cam work)
Dont give me that "Lucky" story, as you know what luck I had with that Honda at the track a few months ago.
Personally, I think the oil pan is well designed, as is the oil pick up for the later 928s. I dont burn oil, I dont smoke, I dont have any bearing damage and shift every shift at 6600rpm and have LOTs of time, 100s of laps, with long 80mph sweeping left turns, under race conditions. 7 full race seasons, no bearing wear, engine oil analysis came back perfect every time. why?? Maybe our design is fine for engines that rev up to 6600rpm.
enjoy redline shifts and the sweet sound of the 928 engine being punished. (no smoke fromthe engine video from the "Rear -Cam".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kV-uqnJbAU4
by the way, after ANOTHER full season of racing, this time with the stroker, all of my competitors lost their engines at one point or another. one of the only 2 competitors that didnt have any engine issues were 2 928s why is that??
Dont give me that "Lucky" story, as you know what luck I had with that Honda at the track a few months ago.
Personally, I think the oil pan is well designed, as is the oil pick up for the later 928s. I dont burn oil, I dont smoke, I dont have any bearing damage and shift every shift at 6600rpm and have LOTs of time, 100s of laps, with long 80mph sweeping left turns, under race conditions. 7 full race seasons, no bearing wear, engine oil analysis came back perfect every time. why?? Maybe our design is fine for engines that rev up to 6600rpm.
enjoy redline shifts and the sweet sound of the 928 engine being punished. (no smoke fromthe engine video from the "Rear -Cam".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kV-uqnJbAU4
by the way, after ANOTHER full season of racing, this time with the stroker, all of my competitors lost their engines at one point or another. one of the only 2 competitors that didnt have any engine issues were 2 928s
why is that??Last edited by mark kibort; 10-30-2009 at 04:10 PM.
10-30-2009, 05:18 PM
#83
Nordschleife Master
10-30-2009, 05:22 PM
#84
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Its all neat stuff, but is it really needed? If its for longevity, I havent seen the need and if its for HP, below 6000rpm, lots of articles are talking 1.5% hp gain but that is a loaded answer, by how the engine is being used. So, Im just questioning the motivation to do such a modification.
10-30-2009, 05:48 PM
#86
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It is one of the few V type engines that both banks are at the same forward position.
not your standard rod setup.
10-30-2009, 05:59 PM
#87
Nordschleife Master
I think so. We'll have to wait for the results of long-term running to see if it halps prevent rod bearing failure.
Had to run but have time to add that I think Mark hasn't had a rod failure because:
1) The Holbert engine was cherry-picked and blueprinted. Was it taken apart and examined for custom parts?
2) You drive on short, technical tracks.
3) Looking at the videos you don't beat the engine in corners.
4) You're just a damn lucky guy
We tried this at one point and it's hard to gather solid data but I think rod failures are happening on longer tracks. Longer periods of sustained WOT and high RPM runs. Correspondingly, more corners per hour means more time off the throttle.
Had to run but have time to add that I think Mark hasn't had a rod failure because:
1) The Holbert engine was cherry-picked and blueprinted. Was it taken apart and examined for custom parts?
2) You drive on short, technical tracks.
3) Looking at the videos you don't beat the engine in corners.
4) You're just a damn lucky guy
We tried this at one point and it's hard to gather solid data but I think rod failures are happening on longer tracks. Longer periods of sustained WOT and high RPM runs. Correspondingly, more corners per hour means more time off the throttle.
10-30-2009, 06:04 PM
#88
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The Maybach engine in the Tiger also had this setup but disk bearings to further shorten it. My opinion is the different mass distribution of the rods in the engine are what caused the imbalance they were known for around 3k. I am wondering if that is behind the rpm range in the Merlin as well.
10-30-2009, 06:12 PM
#89
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http://popup.lala.com/popup/576742266177119259
SHUT DOWN
Tach it up, tach it up. Buddy, gonna shut you down
(Ooh, rev it up, now)
It happened on the strip, where the road is wide
Two cool sharks standin' side by side
Yeah my fuel-injected Sting Ray and a 413
We're revvin' up our engines and it sounds real mean
Tach it up, tach it up. Buddy, gonna shut you down
(Ooh, move it out, now)
Declinin' numbers at an even rate
At the count of "1" we both accelerate
My Sting Ray is light, the slicks are startin' to spin
But the 413's really diggin' in
Gotta be cool now, power shift, here we go
Superstock Dodge is windin' out in low
But my fuel-injected Sting Ray's really startin' to go
To get the traction, I'm a-ridin' the clutch
My pressure plate's burnin', that machine's too much
GUITAR SOLO
(Ooh, honkin’ on, now)
Pedal's to the floor, hear his dual quads drink
And now the 413's lead is startin' to shrink
He's hot with ram induction but it's understood
I got a fuel-injected engine sittin' under my hood
Shut it off, shut it off. Buddy, now I shut you down (4x)
Shut it off, shut it off. Buddy, gonna shut you down
~~~~~~~~~~
Yep, that is the pan that's in my Mercedes diesel.
10-30-2009, 06:25 PM
#90
Rennlist Member
Nothing seems to be modified on the holbert 928 engine. We have it cracked and everthning looks very stock. This is after 7 full seasons of racing, over 105 race days! (and 30,000 hard street miles!)
I've driven many of the tracks of california, including 4 different configurations of Buttonwillow, Thunderhill 3 mile, long high speed sweeping turn 2, laguna seca, considered a hard braking and HP track, and sears point, not so high of speed, but very technical, and lots of High rpm G loading.
more turns per hour??? what does track lengh need to do with anything? our races are 30min, or 50min for the 7 speedGT races I did. The tracks are 11 to 15 turn tracks. I have also ran a weekend at Road America. 14 turns, but over 4 miles vs our 3miles. so, in actuality, the shorter track will have more turns per hour.
watch this last video of the holbert engine in action!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvH6Yh540eE
What do you mean I dont beat the rpms in the corners. I use the highest rpm possible out of the corners, as anyone that knows what they are doing, would do. I challenge you to find ONE turn where Im in the wrong gear, or could be in a lower gear for any turn. I even redline out of the corkscrew in 2nd at laguna to gain valuble tenths, where many use 3rd.
watch the video and see if im holding back at all. one of the last runs in the Holbert 928, with its original stock engine.
Here is Thunderhill , 3mile track with the long 80mph 180degree sweeper
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yusCDwWJz0
mk
PS, Damn lucky guy? If im lucky, i would hate to have some bad luck!
I've driven many of the tracks of california, including 4 different configurations of Buttonwillow, Thunderhill 3 mile, long high speed sweeping turn 2, laguna seca, considered a hard braking and HP track, and sears point, not so high of speed, but very technical, and lots of High rpm G loading.
more turns per hour??? what does track lengh need to do with anything? our races are 30min, or 50min for the 7 speedGT races I did. The tracks are 11 to 15 turn tracks. I have also ran a weekend at Road America. 14 turns, but over 4 miles vs our 3miles. so, in actuality, the shorter track will have more turns per hour.
watch this last video of the holbert engine in action!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvH6Yh540eE
What do you mean I dont beat the rpms in the corners. I use the highest rpm possible out of the corners, as anyone that knows what they are doing, would do. I challenge you to find ONE turn where Im in the wrong gear, or could be in a lower gear for any turn. I even redline out of the corkscrew in 2nd at laguna to gain valuble tenths, where many use 3rd.
watch the video and see if im holding back at all. one of the last runs in the Holbert 928, with its original stock engine.
Here is Thunderhill , 3mile track with the long 80mph 180degree sweeper
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yusCDwWJz0
mk
PS, Damn lucky guy? If im lucky, i would hate to have some bad luck!
I think so. We'll have to wait for the results of long-term running to see if it halps prevent rod bearing failure.
Had to run but have time to add that I think Mark hasn't had a rod failure because:
1) The Holbert engine was cherry-picked and blueprinted. Was it taken apart and examined for custom parts?
2) You drive on short, technical tracks.
3) Looking at the videos you don't beat the engine in corners.
4) You're just a damn lucky guy
We tried this at one point and it's hard to gather solid data but I think rod failures are happening on longer tracks. Longer periods of sustained WOT and high RPM runs. Correspondingly, more corners per hour means more time off the throttle.
Had to run but have time to add that I think Mark hasn't had a rod failure because:
1) The Holbert engine was cherry-picked and blueprinted. Was it taken apart and examined for custom parts?
2) You drive on short, technical tracks.
3) Looking at the videos you don't beat the engine in corners.
4) You're just a damn lucky guy
We tried this at one point and it's hard to gather solid data but I think rod failures are happening on longer tracks. Longer periods of sustained WOT and high RPM runs. Correspondingly, more corners per hour means more time off the throttle.
Last edited by mark kibort; 10-30-2009 at 06:57 PM.