Automatic Track Car (Racers, Please offer some advice?)
08-23-2009, 01:57 PM
#16
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Like Constantine says, kickdown mid-corner could cost you, your life. For this reason alone, I would not recommend an auto for track. Also, the auto - while excellent - will not allow you to select the gear you need when you need it. In addition, automatics have FOUR gears. This means that each gear os LONGER. So, you will have to stay in gears longer and will not be able to stay in your torque peak optimally to the extent that a 5-speed car would.
08-23-2009, 01:59 PM
#17
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One more thing ... I personally do not recommend LSD on an automatic, for the reason that when torque comes on in a 4-speed car, it is uncontrolled by you, to a great extent. WHen there's more torque than the wheels can handle, with LSD, the tail will come out fast, and this in my opinion is very dangerous. Without LSD, it will leave you one rear wheel to keep the car pointed forward.
08-23-2009, 03:43 PM
#18
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Hmmm, More Great points...
James, I'm still waiting for my new checks to come in. I had one check left at the time I wanted to buy the dvd but needed it for rent, lol. They should be here Monday, and I already have your address.
heinrich, using the manual kick down at a slow corner wouldn't disrupt the cars line as it would be shifted down before entry, correct? I've tracked bikes and I'm just trying to visualize entering and exiting the corner in the same manner.
i do agree with the wheels losing traction while upshifting though, as you can't control the power to the wheels... But this car only makes around two something to the rear wheels though, not enough to really lose the rear end much, right?
Maybe get a lot of practice with the car for a few years then convert to a manual? I just want to get my wife out there with me so we can have fun together.......
James, I'm still waiting for my new checks to come in. I had one check left at the time I wanted to buy the dvd but needed it for rent, lol. They should be here Monday, and I already have your address.
heinrich, using the manual kick down at a slow corner wouldn't disrupt the cars line as it would be shifted down before entry, correct? I've tracked bikes and I'm just trying to visualize entering and exiting the corner in the same manner.
i do agree with the wheels losing traction while upshifting though, as you can't control the power to the wheels... But this car only makes around two something to the rear wheels though, not enough to really lose the rear end much, right?
Maybe get a lot of practice with the car for a few years then convert to a manual? I just want to get my wife out there with me so we can have fun together.......
08-23-2009, 05:17 PM
#19
Race Director
Depending on your level of driver development and automatic is actually BETTER.....if you are in the early stages of learning DE, then TT then racing.....an auto is perfect.....on most tracks you can leave it in 3 and focus on your lines and braking zones...then use the kickdown to power out of the corner.....thats what I did for my 1st several DE's......I think it improved my driving faster than having to worry about shifting-etc....the only real negative for a dedicated track toy...is the resale value of track cars sucks in general & it REALLY bad for automatic track cars.......
08-23-2009, 07:31 PM
#21
Nordschleife Master
Brian, YOU are quite right!
Blythe, you are also right that the power is generally not enough with stock S4's to worry to much about losing the car under power. I don't use a remote kickdown on my S4 street/DE car but do on my race car... I can shift my race car all through a corner. If I realize I am a little hot into the corner and am not going to make the apex I release the kickdown button and the car kicks up to at least 3rd (in a slowish corner) and sometimes to 4th...once I realize (which is usually only a matter of milliseconds) that I am now GOING to make the corner I push the button again and the car kicks back down a gear, by then I am at the apex and to full throttle which causes the car to kick down to 2nd and I going FLYING out the back half of the corner!
Constantine is right that you have to be careful, but that is what practice is all about...you will grow to FULLY understand the shift characteristics of your car and you will adapt to it! He is also correct that the auto boxes are more complex, heavier and sap more power than the manual gearboxes will...
All that said, drive the crap out of what you have and enjoy it!
Last edited by pcar928fan; 08-23-2009 at 07:50 PM.
08-24-2009, 03:47 AM
#22
Rennlist Member
Hey Blythe,
I've tracked my '88 S4 quite a bit doing DE's, it's a street car so it's never been raced.
Here's how I approach it:
1) Accept the fact that you are basically going to be driving a two speed manual.
2) Disconnect the kickdown switch.
3) Adjust the vaccuum modulator and bowden cable to give you smooth shifts. This is going to be harder on the tranny than the shift kit-like crisp shifts of cranking down the modulator for those that like to leave the tranny in "D" while using a PKS. (Parallel Kickdown Switch). You need a smooth shift for both upshifting and downshifting when you manually shift the gears. A hard shifting A/T, which is fun accelarating in a straight line, will seriously disrupt the balance of the car when accelarating and decelarating in and out of turns.
4) After (and ONLY after) you get used to manually shifting your A/T on the track, you need to work on your left foot braking. You need to time your corners in such a manner that you hit the brake with the left foot, and -optimally- just before you start your turn in the following three things occur: The tach needle sweeps downward past 3500rpms, your downshift to "2", you put just enough pedal pressure on the accelerator to rev match 4500 rpms in "2" (your left foot is still on the brake). So at this point you have your left foot on the brake and your right on the gas. I know it sounds weird but it works. You let off the brake at the same time you turn in, there is a brief window in all this where the tranny is shifting and you can bring the engine rpms up and just as the car downshifts to "2", the engine will be at 4500rpms, which is right in the meat of the power band. It's kind of like a rev match with a manual car, but not quite as elegant.
If you ever get a chance to drive a track out in the rain (something of which there is no shortage of here in the PacNW), there is nothing like a slick track to keep you honest in learning this technique. If you downshift too early the rear wheels will lock up and it is not a lot of fun.
This technique will keep your S4 as deep into the brake zones as it can go, and keep it on the pipe coming out of the corners.
Regarding H's comments on the LSD, I would disagree. I would have a hard time racing a car without it, whether it was an A/T or a manual. It is very frustrating going around a corner and losing forward momentum because your sole drive wheel happens to be on the inside in a tight corner and all the weight transfers out causing wheel spin. His scenario is caused by one of two issues, either the tranny being set up to shift too hard, which causes the wheel to lose traction on the shift, or the car is being driving in "D", which would cause the car to upshift automatically to the next gear if the driver lifted after the tail kick out. If the car automatically upshifts to 4th in this situation, you've lost all instant power to the wheels and you've got no control over the rear of the car anymore.
Concerns about tracking an A/T all surround this unpredictability about the tranny downshifting under hard accelaration. By manipulating the bowden cable, vaccuum modulator, and disconnecting the kickdown switch, you can eliminate all unpredictability, but at the same time you have changed your A/T into something different than what it is stock. My car is still very docile, but I manually shift it all the time. If I leave my car in "D", it will still upshift and downshift, but not with the same response as a stock S4. In order to upshift I have to lift, in order to downshift I have to floor the gas and wait an extra second or two. This doesn't matter to me because I don't really drive my car in "D", and haven't for a long time. When I manually shift the car I get an instant response, so that's all that matters to me.
If you have it in your head that you are going to be able to set up the A/T to shift for you while leaving it in "D" in a race situation, I think you are taking the chance that the tranny may catch you by suprise sooner or later in a race. At some point, you are going to find yourself side by side with some hot stuff RSR that you are just dying to school, and you'll put it to the floor, activate your kick down, and heaven forbid you also have a PKS wired in, the tranny will do a two gear downshift into first and you'll be looking eye to eye with the uncoming traffic behind you. Not saying that it will happen, I DE'd my s4 with that set up without issue, but the possibility was always there.
Good luck with it though, I'd love to see more A/T's out on the track, they are certainly capable trannies.
I've tracked my '88 S4 quite a bit doing DE's, it's a street car so it's never been raced.
Here's how I approach it:
1) Accept the fact that you are basically going to be driving a two speed manual.
2) Disconnect the kickdown switch.
3) Adjust the vaccuum modulator and bowden cable to give you smooth shifts. This is going to be harder on the tranny than the shift kit-like crisp shifts of cranking down the modulator for those that like to leave the tranny in "D" while using a PKS. (Parallel Kickdown Switch). You need a smooth shift for both upshifting and downshifting when you manually shift the gears. A hard shifting A/T, which is fun accelarating in a straight line, will seriously disrupt the balance of the car when accelarating and decelarating in and out of turns.
4) After (and ONLY after) you get used to manually shifting your A/T on the track, you need to work on your left foot braking. You need to time your corners in such a manner that you hit the brake with the left foot, and -optimally- just before you start your turn in the following three things occur: The tach needle sweeps downward past 3500rpms, your downshift to "2", you put just enough pedal pressure on the accelerator to rev match 4500 rpms in "2" (your left foot is still on the brake). So at this point you have your left foot on the brake and your right on the gas. I know it sounds weird but it works. You let off the brake at the same time you turn in, there is a brief window in all this where the tranny is shifting and you can bring the engine rpms up and just as the car downshifts to "2", the engine will be at 4500rpms, which is right in the meat of the power band. It's kind of like a rev match with a manual car, but not quite as elegant.
If you ever get a chance to drive a track out in the rain (something of which there is no shortage of here in the PacNW), there is nothing like a slick track to keep you honest in learning this technique. If you downshift too early the rear wheels will lock up and it is not a lot of fun.This technique will keep your S4 as deep into the brake zones as it can go, and keep it on the pipe coming out of the corners.
Regarding H's comments on the LSD, I would disagree. I would have a hard time racing a car without it, whether it was an A/T or a manual. It is very frustrating going around a corner and losing forward momentum because your sole drive wheel happens to be on the inside in a tight corner and all the weight transfers out causing wheel spin. His scenario is caused by one of two issues, either the tranny being set up to shift too hard, which causes the wheel to lose traction on the shift, or the car is being driving in "D", which would cause the car to upshift automatically to the next gear if the driver lifted after the tail kick out. If the car automatically upshifts to 4th in this situation, you've lost all instant power to the wheels and you've got no control over the rear of the car anymore.
Concerns about tracking an A/T all surround this unpredictability about the tranny downshifting under hard accelaration. By manipulating the bowden cable, vaccuum modulator, and disconnecting the kickdown switch, you can eliminate all unpredictability, but at the same time you have changed your A/T into something different than what it is stock. My car is still very docile, but I manually shift it all the time. If I leave my car in "D", it will still upshift and downshift, but not with the same response as a stock S4. In order to upshift I have to lift, in order to downshift I have to floor the gas and wait an extra second or two. This doesn't matter to me because I don't really drive my car in "D", and haven't for a long time. When I manually shift the car I get an instant response, so that's all that matters to me.
If you have it in your head that you are going to be able to set up the A/T to shift for you while leaving it in "D" in a race situation, I think you are taking the chance that the tranny may catch you by suprise sooner or later in a race. At some point, you are going to find yourself side by side with some hot stuff RSR that you are just dying to school, and you'll put it to the floor, activate your kick down, and heaven forbid you also have a PKS wired in, the tranny will do a two gear downshift into first and you'll be looking eye to eye with the uncoming traffic behind you. Not saying that it will happen, I DE'd my s4 with that set up without issue, but the possibility was always there.
Good luck with it though, I'd love to see more A/T's out on the track, they are certainly capable trannies.
08-24-2009, 11:49 AM
#23
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Excellent! Thanks to you all for the help and wealth of information!
I also had no idea the transmission could be adjusted in such a way. I will have to look more into that as I get the car more sorted out.
Thanks again for taking the time!
I also had no idea the transmission could be adjusted in such a way. I will have to look more into that as I get the car more sorted out.
Thanks again for taking the time!
08-24-2009, 12:10 PM
#24
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very good post
Hey Blythe,
I've tracked my '88 S4 quite a bit doing DE's, it's a street car so it's never been raced.
Here's how I approach it:
1) Accept the fact that you are basically going to be driving a two speed manual.
2) Disconnect the kickdown switch.
3) Adjust the vaccuum modulator and bowden cable to give you smooth shifts. This is going to be harder on the tranny than the shift kit-like crisp shifts of cranking down the modulator for those that like to leave the tranny in "D" while using a PKS. (Parallel Kickdown Switch). You need a smooth shift for both upshifting and downshifting when you manually shift the gears. A hard shifting A/T, which is fun accelarating in a straight line, will seriously disrupt the balance of the car when accelarating and decelarating in and out of turns.
4) After (and ONLY after) you get used to manually shifting your A/T on the track, you need to work on your left foot braking. You need to time your corners in such a manner that you hit the brake with the left foot, and -optimally- just before you start your turn in the following three things occur: The tach needle sweeps downward past 3500rpms, your downshift to "2", you put just enough pedal pressure on the accelerator to rev match 4500 rpms in "2" (your left foot is still on the brake). So at this point you have your left foot on the brake and your right on the gas. I know it sounds weird but it works. You let off the brake at the same time you turn in, there is a brief window in all this where the tranny is shifting and you can bring the engine rpms up and just as the car downshifts to "2", the engine will be at 4500rpms, which is right in the meat of the power band. It's kind of like a rev match with a manual car, but not quite as elegant. If you ever get a chance to drive a track out in the rain (something of which there is no shortage of here in the PacNW), there is nothing like a slick track to keep you honest in learning this technique. If you downshift too early the rear wheels will lock up and it is not a lot of fun.
This technique will keep your S4 as deep into the brake zones as it can go, and keep it on the pipe coming out of the corners.
Regarding H's comments on the LSD, I would disagree. I would have a hard time racing a car without it, whether it was an A/T or a manual. It is very frustrating going around a corner and losing forward momentum because your sole drive wheel happens to be on the inside in a tight corner and all the weight transfers out causing wheel spin. His scenario is caused by one of two issues, either the tranny being set up to shift too hard, which causes the wheel to lose traction on the shift, or the car is being driving in "D", which would cause the car to upshift automatically to the next gear if the driver lifted after the tail kick out. If the car automatically upshifts to 4th in this situation, you've lost all instant power to the wheels and you've got no control over the rear of the car anymore.
Concerns about tracking an A/T all surround this unpredictability about the tranny downshifting under hard accelaration. By manipulating the bowden cable, vaccuum modulator, and disconnecting the kickdown switch, you can eliminate all unpredictability, but at the same time you have changed your A/T into something different than what it is stock. My car is still very docile, but I manually shift it all the time. If I leave my car in "D", it will still upshift and downshift, but not with the same response as a stock S4. In order to upshift I have to lift, in order to downshift I have to floor the gas and wait an extra second or two. This doesn't matter to me because I don't really drive my car in "D", and haven't for a long time. When I manually shift the car I get an instant response, so that's all that matters to me.
If you have it in your head that you are going to be able to set up the A/T to shift for you while leaving it in "D" in a race situation, I think you are taking the chance that the tranny may catch you by suprise sooner or later in a race. At some point, you are going to find yourself side by side with some hot stuff RSR that you are just dying to school, and you'll put it to the floor, activate your kick down, and heaven forbid you also have a PKS wired in, the tranny will do a two gear downshift into first and you'll be looking eye to eye with the uncoming traffic behind you. Not saying that it will happen, I DE'd my s4 with that set up without issue, but the possibility was always there.
Good luck with it though, I'd love to see more A/T's out on the track, they are certainly capable trannies.
I've tracked my '88 S4 quite a bit doing DE's, it's a street car so it's never been raced.
Here's how I approach it:
1) Accept the fact that you are basically going to be driving a two speed manual.
2) Disconnect the kickdown switch.
3) Adjust the vaccuum modulator and bowden cable to give you smooth shifts. This is going to be harder on the tranny than the shift kit-like crisp shifts of cranking down the modulator for those that like to leave the tranny in "D" while using a PKS. (Parallel Kickdown Switch). You need a smooth shift for both upshifting and downshifting when you manually shift the gears. A hard shifting A/T, which is fun accelarating in a straight line, will seriously disrupt the balance of the car when accelarating and decelarating in and out of turns.
4) After (and ONLY after) you get used to manually shifting your A/T on the track, you need to work on your left foot braking. You need to time your corners in such a manner that you hit the brake with the left foot, and -optimally- just before you start your turn in the following three things occur: The tach needle sweeps downward past 3500rpms, your downshift to "2", you put just enough pedal pressure on the accelerator to rev match 4500 rpms in "2" (your left foot is still on the brake). So at this point you have your left foot on the brake and your right on the gas. I know it sounds weird but it works. You let off the brake at the same time you turn in, there is a brief window in all this where the tranny is shifting and you can bring the engine rpms up and just as the car downshifts to "2", the engine will be at 4500rpms, which is right in the meat of the power band. It's kind of like a rev match with a manual car, but not quite as elegant.
If you ever get a chance to drive a track out in the rain (something of which there is no shortage of here in the PacNW), there is nothing like a slick track to keep you honest in learning this technique. If you downshift too early the rear wheels will lock up and it is not a lot of fun.This technique will keep your S4 as deep into the brake zones as it can go, and keep it on the pipe coming out of the corners.
Regarding H's comments on the LSD, I would disagree. I would have a hard time racing a car without it, whether it was an A/T or a manual. It is very frustrating going around a corner and losing forward momentum because your sole drive wheel happens to be on the inside in a tight corner and all the weight transfers out causing wheel spin. His scenario is caused by one of two issues, either the tranny being set up to shift too hard, which causes the wheel to lose traction on the shift, or the car is being driving in "D", which would cause the car to upshift automatically to the next gear if the driver lifted after the tail kick out. If the car automatically upshifts to 4th in this situation, you've lost all instant power to the wheels and you've got no control over the rear of the car anymore.
Concerns about tracking an A/T all surround this unpredictability about the tranny downshifting under hard accelaration. By manipulating the bowden cable, vaccuum modulator, and disconnecting the kickdown switch, you can eliminate all unpredictability, but at the same time you have changed your A/T into something different than what it is stock. My car is still very docile, but I manually shift it all the time. If I leave my car in "D", it will still upshift and downshift, but not with the same response as a stock S4. In order to upshift I have to lift, in order to downshift I have to floor the gas and wait an extra second or two. This doesn't matter to me because I don't really drive my car in "D", and haven't for a long time. When I manually shift the car I get an instant response, so that's all that matters to me.
If you have it in your head that you are going to be able to set up the A/T to shift for you while leaving it in "D" in a race situation, I think you are taking the chance that the tranny may catch you by suprise sooner or later in a race. At some point, you are going to find yourself side by side with some hot stuff RSR that you are just dying to school, and you'll put it to the floor, activate your kick down, and heaven forbid you also have a PKS wired in, the tranny will do a two gear downshift into first and you'll be looking eye to eye with the uncoming traffic behind you. Not saying that it will happen, I DE'd my s4 with that set up without issue, but the possibility was always there.
Good luck with it though, I'd love to see more A/T's out on the track, they are certainly capable trannies.
08-24-2009, 01:14 PM
#25
Nordschleife Master
Adam, is exactly right! A wet track is very trying in an auto car driven in "D"... Can be done (I was faster than just about anyone in the yellow DE group in the rain) but man you have got to get ON TOP OF IT ALL THE WAY and his technique certainly would be smoother!
08-24-2009, 03:15 PM
#26
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In POC the Porsche driving club for Southern California if you gut the interior....you get to run against Joe Fan and Mark Anderson after about two years of training courses schools and experience . But the car is bumped way way up....get the rule book KNOW where you will be running BEFORE you change ANYTHING ! The next POC Fontana track event the ENTRY FEE is $700 Sept 18-20 th. You should go watch it is FREE to watch...
08-24-2009, 03:25 PM
#27
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Any other guys going to be there? I can surely make it, and the price is right (free....!)
I was worried that gutting the car would up the class. But, racing will be out of the question for at least a couple of years. So I would just be driving in schools, and open track days I suppose?
Why does this track event cost 700? Is this a "track day" or race or class? Is the fee high because there will be high dollar cars out there who don't want wanna be's like me rubbing into them?
I'm really learning a lot here thanks, I'm sure a lot of guys would love to do the same, and they are learning something here also!
So far I have a set of racing seats and harnesses for the car, I'm waiting back on an email for a used rollbar....
I was worried that gutting the car would up the class. But, racing will be out of the question for at least a couple of years. So I would just be driving in schools, and open track days I suppose?
Why does this track event cost 700? Is this a "track day" or race or class? Is the fee high because there will be high dollar cars out there who don't want wanna be's like me rubbing into them?
I'm really learning a lot here thanks, I'm sure a lot of guys would love to do the same, and they are learning something here also!
So far I have a set of racing seats and harnesses for the car, I'm waiting back on an email for a used rollbar....
08-24-2009, 03:43 PM
#28
Nordschleife Master
For PCA racing, are you aware that race seats have approvals and harnesses need to be changed due to age? And that cars are required to have full cages after a brief rookie period?
And get some driving experience before looking so far ahead. To be honest, everyone thinks that they're a great driver. I think I'm a worse driver now than I did 7 years ago before my first DE. That's because now I know how far it is from squealing tires on a cloverleaf to taking off seconds through driving skill.
08-24-2009, 03:45 PM
#29
08-24-2009, 03:47 PM
#30
Rennlist Member
The best way to build a track/race car is to buy someone else's already built car for pennies on the dollar. Unless you really want to build one.
And agree with what is said above, figure out what you want to do, get the rule book, visit the venues, talk to the participants, re-figure out what you want to do, THEN start buying and building.
And agree with what is said above, figure out what you want to do, get the rule book, visit the venues, talk to the participants, re-figure out what you want to do, THEN start buying and building.