Cost of S4 engine rebuild?
07-11-2009, 11:11 PM
#31
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I have been working up some figures for insurance and Appraisal reasons on my 87, and I have just started, and frankly, I am shocked at this point.
I just reviewed a parts list from two years ago what was for what I call "the full monty" engine reseal. Note that this doesn't touch the long block. This is just a full WP/TB (with rebuilt WP), intake, cam covers, water bridge, oil neck and associated bits and pieces. The price at the time was $1900 in parts. Powder-coating was extra. Injector replacement or refurbish is extra. Heck, that doesn't even include a new air filter.
I have noted for decades (and collected real data in support) that folks that do not keep meticulous track of their time and expense - and aren't accountable for either - usually grossly under-estimate both. This is true for folks that "estimate" wrenching work just like it is true for folks that write software.
I have noted for decades (and collected real data in support) that folks that do not keep meticulous track of their time and expense - and aren't accountable for either - usually grossly under-estimate both. This is true for folks that "estimate" wrenching work just like it is true for folks that write software.
07-11-2009, 11:28 PM
#32
Nordschleife Master
I think we have very different ideas on what constitutes a rebuilt VS repaired engine.
So what did you replace in your "Rebuilt" engine that you could do it for $2200?
Honestly, I find that hard to believe that a lot was done to your motor for that little amount of money using only Porsche parts.
One of my BBC rebuilds is way more than that.
So what did you replace in your "Rebuilt" engine that you could do it for $2200?
Honestly, I find that hard to believe that a lot was done to your motor for that little amount of money using only Porsche parts.
One of my BBC rebuilds is way more than that.
The car was a timing belt failure engine so was torn down to replace bent valves. In doing so i decided to replace the rings and rod bearings but left the mains as they were. Engine covered 110K miles so i didnt touch mains.
The list is nearly identical to Robs really with some additions and some subtractions.
I bought Glyco rod bearings from a 944 supplier for i believe $160 for 16 halves. I also bought OEM 944 rings for less than $20 for each piston.
I bought a bunch of intake valves from someone off ebay, only needed 2 of those though, and i bought 4 used exhaust valves from Garrity. (Something like that, i forget the valve count) I bought OEM valve seals for $1 each from an online retailer that i found, and all the gaskets, the timing belt, the rollers and oil lines and flappy etc etc all came from Sunset Porsche. The entire gasket set which includes those $15 each exhaust manifold gaskets was about $460 for the Porsche set. Oddly it doesnt include the above mentioned valve seals.
Later i found that you can buy Bosch ISV, TPS and Temp II sensors from auto zone for $140, $60 and $20 respectively. These were a nice surprise as they were clearly "Bosch" parts in a bag which said "Wells" And they were very cheap.
As for MAF, I sent it to Colorado, Injection Labs, that cost $150, but I think its now $165 last i checked. I bought a universal O2 sensor that i spliced for $60 from 928 INTL and the valve covers and intake i paid $40 to have them media blasted to give a nice porous finish to which i then painted with an over the counter wrinkle finish and later added another top coat to change the color slightly.
I originally bought Febi/bilstein cam chains, but they looked really weak so i returned those which cost $15 each and bought the OE Porsche ones for I believe $30 each although it could have been less then that. A silicon pan gasket went on and a GTS baffle and OE oil filters also from porsche. The car had a recent HAL sensor and had new plug wires and some other stuff added prior to my purchase, knock sensors were also recently replaced. Although I recently bought 4 knock sensors for $20 each from a vendor online. Funny enough the 16V VW GTI i have uses the exact same knock sensors so ive got a bunch of those things floating around.
What else..... Injectors i had sent out to Cruzin, but its impractical to do that when you can buy later Bosch Design II ford injectors for the same price and just add the 928 o-ring to them. I have a new set of Design II injectors with proper o-rings laying around someplace too.
When i tore the engine down it was completely cleaned, The pistons were soaked in a solvend to dissolve the caked on carbon on the piston tops and clean out the ring lands, the heads were de-carbonized, the valves were cleaned to like new and i even polished them. Polishing valves is likely a waste of time, Rob Edwards had a much better system of just media blasting them as opposed to what i did which was use a wire wheel and bench grinder to remove the caked on carbon. Valve guides were still tight so they werent touched. I never replaced lifters although had i known at the time that $12 lifters existed i sure would have. Another interesting thing i saw in Rob's list in new valve collets. At $1 each thats really cheap although i never thought those would require replacing. On the next rebuild i will do that though.
I think that covers it. Yeah its not what i would call a "remanufactured engine" but it was completely gone through and was over and above what was required for a relatively simple timing belt failure.
If you could get $12,000-$15,000 to do that work then i need to get my own shop!
But i do believe these engines, and these cars in general are extremely reasonable to fix, all the parts are available, all the electronics can be rebuilt by people in the US or overseas, and every major mechanical component can be repaired, rebuilt or what have you. For what was once considered a supercar, these really are very very reasonable cars to repair, I really have no qualms with parts cost with these cars.
but your mileage may vary........
07-11-2009, 11:41 PM
#33
Three Wheelin'
okay this might be out of the subject of this thread but, are these VW lifters reliable ?
I got all my lifters mixed up, does this mean I have to buy new lifters ? I dont know if the lifters were making noise before I took it apart.
I got all my lifters mixed up, does this mean I have to buy new lifters ? I dont know if the lifters were making noise before I took it apart.
07-11-2009, 11:41 PM
#34
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FWIW, I bought my first 928 on 5/27/06, and started a spreadsheet that day. I have a record of what I have paid, down to the penny, for the purchase price, every new and used part, every tool for the garage and all the labor (not mine) on the 90GT, the 93GTS, three sets of wheels and the stroker project (so far). So I'm painfully aware of what everything costs. I have bought plenty of things to discover them available cheaper somewhere else, so the prices I quoted are the best case scenario. So it may not be a realistic snapshot of the prices. One of the great things about buying a 2nd 928 is you can get a second chance at buying the same part (again) for a better price..... 
07-11-2009, 11:42 PM
#35
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You sure have a lot of non Porsche parts for using only Porsche parts........in your 2200 repair.
IMHO, if you do not change the main bearings, you have not done a rebuild, period.
PS, If you think a Autocrap IAC, TPS, or 99% of the OEM parts are the same as OE Porsche parts, then my friend you do need to open up a shop, you will get a education in a hurry.
Have you ever put a scope on some of this aftermarket OEM electrical crap?
I have, and refuse to use it, BTDT.
That must have been a very low mileage motor to not have wear on the exhaust guides, I almost never see a head with any kind of miles on it from any manufacture that did not need a few guides.
IMHO, if you do not change the main bearings, you have not done a rebuild, period.
PS, If you think a Autocrap IAC, TPS, or 99% of the OEM parts are the same as OE Porsche parts, then my friend you do need to open up a shop, you will get a education in a hurry.
Have you ever put a scope on some of this aftermarket OEM electrical crap?
I have, and refuse to use it, BTDT.
That must have been a very low mileage motor to not have wear on the exhaust guides, I almost never see a head with any kind of miles on it from any manufacture that did not need a few guides.
Well since you asked
The car was a timing belt failure engine so was torn down to replace bent valves. In doing so i decided to replace the rings and rod bearings but left the mains as they were. Engine covered 110K miles so i didnt touch mains.
The list is nearly identical to Robs really with some additions and some subtractions.
I bought Glyco rod bearings from a 944 supplier for i believe $160 for 16 halves. I also bought OEM 944 rings for less than $20 for each piston.
I bought a bunch of intake valves from someone off ebay, only needed 2 of those though, and i bought 4 used exhaust valves from Garrity. (Something like that, i forget the valve count) I bought OEM valve seals for $1 each from an online retailer that i found, and all the gaskets, the timing belt, the rollers and oil lines and flappy etc etc all came from Sunset Porsche. The entire gasket set which includes those $15 each exhaust manifold gaskets was about $460 for the Porsche set. Oddly it doesnt include the above mentioned valve seals.
Later i found that you can buy Bosch ISV, TPS and Temp II sensors from auto zone for $140, $60 and $20 respectively. These were a nice surprise as they were clearly "Bosch" parts in a bag which said "Wells" And they were very cheap.
As for MAF, I sent it to Colorado, Injection Labs, that cost $150, but I think its now $165 last i checked. I bought a universal O2 sensor that i spliced for $60 from 928 INTL and the valve covers and intake i paid $40 to have them media blasted to give a nice porous finish to which i then painted with an over the counter wrinkle finish and later added another top coat to change the color slightly.
I originally bought Febi/bilstein cam chains, but they looked really weak so i returned those which cost $15 each and bought the OE Porsche ones for I believe $30 each although it could have been less then that. A silicon pan gasket went on and a GTS baffle and OE oil filters also from porsche. The car had a recent HAL sensor and had new plug wires and some other stuff added prior to my purchase, knock sensors were also recently replaced. Although I recently bought 4 knock sensors for $20 each from a vendor online. Funny enough the 16V VW GTI i have uses the exact same knock sensors so ive got a bunch of those things floating around.
What else..... Injectors i had sent out to Cruzin, but its impractical to do that when you can buy later Bosch Design II ford injectors for the same price and just add the 928 o-ring to them. I have a new set of Design II injectors with proper o-rings laying around someplace too.
When i tore the engine down it was completely cleaned, The pistons were soaked in a solvend to dissolve the caked on carbon on the piston tops and clean out the ring lands, the heads were de-carbonized, the valves were cleaned to like new and i even polished them. Polishing valves is likely a waste of time, Rob Edwards had a much better system of just media blasting them as opposed to what i did which was use a wire wheel and bench grinder to remove the caked on carbon. Valve guides were still tight so they werent touched. I never replaced lifters although had i known at the time that $12 lifters existed i sure would have. Another interesting thing i saw in Rob's list in new valve collets. At $1 each thats really cheap although i never thought those would require replacing. On the next rebuild i will do that though.
I think that covers it. Yeah its not what i would call a "remanufactured engine" but it was completely gone through and was over and above what was required for a relatively simple timing belt failure.
If you could get $12,000-$15,000 to do that work then i need to get my own shop!
But i do believe these engines, and these cars in general are extremely reasonable to fix, all the parts are available, all the electronics can be rebuilt by people in the US or overseas, and every major mechanical component can be repaired, rebuilt or what have you. For what was once considered a supercar, these really are very very reasonable cars to repair, I really have no qualms with parts cost with these cars.
but your mileage may vary........
The car was a timing belt failure engine so was torn down to replace bent valves. In doing so i decided to replace the rings and rod bearings but left the mains as they were. Engine covered 110K miles so i didnt touch mains.
The list is nearly identical to Robs really with some additions and some subtractions.
I bought Glyco rod bearings from a 944 supplier for i believe $160 for 16 halves. I also bought OEM 944 rings for less than $20 for each piston.
I bought a bunch of intake valves from someone off ebay, only needed 2 of those though, and i bought 4 used exhaust valves from Garrity. (Something like that, i forget the valve count) I bought OEM valve seals for $1 each from an online retailer that i found, and all the gaskets, the timing belt, the rollers and oil lines and flappy etc etc all came from Sunset Porsche. The entire gasket set which includes those $15 each exhaust manifold gaskets was about $460 for the Porsche set. Oddly it doesnt include the above mentioned valve seals.
Later i found that you can buy Bosch ISV, TPS and Temp II sensors from auto zone for $140, $60 and $20 respectively. These were a nice surprise as they were clearly "Bosch" parts in a bag which said "Wells" And they were very cheap.
As for MAF, I sent it to Colorado, Injection Labs, that cost $150, but I think its now $165 last i checked. I bought a universal O2 sensor that i spliced for $60 from 928 INTL and the valve covers and intake i paid $40 to have them media blasted to give a nice porous finish to which i then painted with an over the counter wrinkle finish and later added another top coat to change the color slightly.
I originally bought Febi/bilstein cam chains, but they looked really weak so i returned those which cost $15 each and bought the OE Porsche ones for I believe $30 each although it could have been less then that. A silicon pan gasket went on and a GTS baffle and OE oil filters also from porsche. The car had a recent HAL sensor and had new plug wires and some other stuff added prior to my purchase, knock sensors were also recently replaced. Although I recently bought 4 knock sensors for $20 each from a vendor online. Funny enough the 16V VW GTI i have uses the exact same knock sensors so ive got a bunch of those things floating around.
What else..... Injectors i had sent out to Cruzin, but its impractical to do that when you can buy later Bosch Design II ford injectors for the same price and just add the 928 o-ring to them. I have a new set of Design II injectors with proper o-rings laying around someplace too.
When i tore the engine down it was completely cleaned, The pistons were soaked in a solvend to dissolve the caked on carbon on the piston tops and clean out the ring lands, the heads were de-carbonized, the valves were cleaned to like new and i even polished them. Polishing valves is likely a waste of time, Rob Edwards had a much better system of just media blasting them as opposed to what i did which was use a wire wheel and bench grinder to remove the caked on carbon. Valve guides were still tight so they werent touched. I never replaced lifters although had i known at the time that $12 lifters existed i sure would have. Another interesting thing i saw in Rob's list in new valve collets. At $1 each thats really cheap although i never thought those would require replacing. On the next rebuild i will do that though.
I think that covers it. Yeah its not what i would call a "remanufactured engine" but it was completely gone through and was over and above what was required for a relatively simple timing belt failure.
If you could get $12,000-$15,000 to do that work then i need to get my own shop!
But i do believe these engines, and these cars in general are extremely reasonable to fix, all the parts are available, all the electronics can be rebuilt by people in the US or overseas, and every major mechanical component can be repaired, rebuilt or what have you. For what was once considered a supercar, these really are very very reasonable cars to repair, I really have no qualms with parts cost with these cars.
but your mileage may vary........
07-12-2009, 12:11 AM
#36
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Greg:
What are you doing being involved in this discussion? You can't win this one!
A rebuilt engine should last as long as the original did...a "repaired" engine will not.
What are you doing being involved in this discussion? You can't win this one!
A rebuilt engine should last as long as the original did...a "repaired" engine will not.
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Semi-retired, as of Feb 1, 2023.
The days of free technical advice are over.
Free consultations will no longer be available.
Will still be in the shop, isolated and exclusively working on project cars, developmental work and products, engines and transmissions.
Have fun with your 928's people!
greg brown
714 879 9072
GregBBRD@aol.com
Semi-retired, as of Feb 1, 2023.
The days of free technical advice are over.
Free consultations will no longer be available.
Will still be in the shop, isolated and exclusively working on project cars, developmental work and products, engines and transmissions.
Have fun with your 928's people!
07-12-2009, 12:16 AM
#37
Not the sharpest tool in the shed
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07-12-2009, 12:30 AM
#41
Nordschleife Master
You sure have a lot of non Porsche parts for using only Porsche parts........in your 2200 repair.
IMHO, if you do not change the main bearings, you have not done a rebuild, period.
PS, If you think a Autocrap IAC, TPS, or 99% of the OEM parts are the same as OE Porsche parts, then my friend you do need to open up a shop, you will get a education in a hurry.
Have you ever put a scope on some of this aftermarket OEM electrical crap?
I have, and refuse to use it, BTDT.
That must have been a very low mileage motor to not have wear on the exhaust guides, I almost never see a head with any kind of miles on it from any manufacture that did not need a few guides.
IMHO, if you do not change the main bearings, you have not done a rebuild, period.
PS, If you think a Autocrap IAC, TPS, or 99% of the OEM parts are the same as OE Porsche parts, then my friend you do need to open up a shop, you will get a education in a hurry.
Have you ever put a scope on some of this aftermarket OEM electrical crap?
I have, and refuse to use it, BTDT.
That must have been a very low mileage motor to not have wear on the exhaust guides, I almost never see a head with any kind of miles on it from any manufacture that did not need a few guides.
And yes you need to be selective in what you buy. I have no idea what an OE ISV costs from Porsche, i bet its a few hundred more then the $140 i paid.
Yeah there maybe differences in tolerance from an OEM Bosch ISV to an OE Porsche/Bosch ISV but i cant think its that different that its justified to pay 3x the price.
Your also right that yes when i look at my list i didnt use ONLY OE porsche parts, you got me there.
The point remains that i rebuilt (whether you want to call it refreshed, rebuilt or whatever i could really care less) a timing belt failure car and refreshed or whatever you wanna call it the majority of the engine. I was very happy with the end result and i was also happy to find that it didnt cost a whole lot either.
I guess you will find different people spending different amounts for their projects, i choose not to pay more then i need to but i dont think your correct in suggesting that because i was selective of where i bought the items and at what time i bought them that there was anything sub par with the parts i put onto the car. Simply put, only OE or OEM parts were on that car. Also, That engine rebuild was done over about an 18 month period so i wasnt shopping for everything on a short time basis, this allowed me to pick up what i thought was a deal from time to time and in the end i had collected everything i needed for not a whole lot of coin.
07-12-2009, 12:32 AM
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If you "rebuild' your own engine and screw it up or decide not to replace a couple of parts because they "look ok" it's no big deal (relatively). Your labor is free and you get what you pay for.
But, if you rebuild someone else's engine you can't play the "looks good" game. You have to know that it is good.
How many people here would pull their own intake not replace every breather hose under it? How many people would pay someone to remove their intake and replace all but one of the breather hoses under it?
07-12-2009, 12:44 AM
#43
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The parts i bought at autozone said Bosch on them. They werent some made in who knows where off brand, they were bosch parts, so i dont know what your going on about here.
And yes you need to be selective in what you buy. I have no idea what an OE ISV costs from Porsche, i bet its a few hundred more then the $140 i paid.
Yeah there maybe differences in tolerance from an OEM Bosch ISV to an OE Porsche/Bosch ISV but i cant think its that different that its justified to pay 3x the price.
Your also right that yes when i look at my list i didnt use ONLY OE porsche parts, you got me there.
The point remains that i rebuilt (whether you want to call it refreshed, rebuilt or whatever i could really care less) a timing belt failure car and refreshed or whatever you wanna call it the majority of the engine. I was very happy with the end result and i was also happy to find that it didnt cost a whole lot either.
I guess you will find different people spending different amounts for their projects, i choose not to pay more then i need to but i dont think your correct in suggesting that because i was selective of where i bought the items and at what time i bought them that there was anything sub par with the parts i put onto the car. Simply put, only OE or OEM parts were on that car. Also, That engine rebuild was done over about an 18 month period so i wasnt shopping for everything on a short time basis, this allowed me to pick up what i thought was a deal from time to time and in the end i had collected everything i needed for not a whole lot of coin.
And yes you need to be selective in what you buy. I have no idea what an OE ISV costs from Porsche, i bet its a few hundred more then the $140 i paid.
Yeah there maybe differences in tolerance from an OEM Bosch ISV to an OE Porsche/Bosch ISV but i cant think its that different that its justified to pay 3x the price.
Your also right that yes when i look at my list i didnt use ONLY OE porsche parts, you got me there.
The point remains that i rebuilt (whether you want to call it refreshed, rebuilt or whatever i could really care less) a timing belt failure car and refreshed or whatever you wanna call it the majority of the engine. I was very happy with the end result and i was also happy to find that it didnt cost a whole lot either.
I guess you will find different people spending different amounts for their projects, i choose not to pay more then i need to but i dont think your correct in suggesting that because i was selective of where i bought the items and at what time i bought them that there was anything sub par with the parts i put onto the car. Simply put, only OE or OEM parts were on that car. Also, That engine rebuild was done over about an 18 month period so i wasnt shopping for everything on a short time basis, this allowed me to pick up what i thought was a deal from time to time and in the end i had collected everything i needed for not a whole lot of coin.
As long as you are happy, it makes no difference to me either way, but when folks try to make others think there is no difference in a Factory and OEM parts, well I have a different view on that.
We just differ on our views, that is all.
07-12-2009, 01:55 AM
#44
By Blown 87
Greg I think in regard to the mains but not including the thrust bearing in general these can be visually inspected along with plastic gauge to see the state of play and that would include looking for inclusions in the bearings. I haven't seen an 928 engine that didn't have some wear on the thrust bearing though.
In regard to the heads Ryan how close did you check those exhaust guides? I would be extremely surprised if they were in tolerance, the only way they might be is if the car was a one owner and the owner had always used oils high in ZDDP and other wear additives, if it was running thin synthetics those guides would be toast in pretty short order.
We just pulled down a 30 K mile S4 engine and they were worn over a thou more than the wear limit, putting new seals will only disguise the problem and to me valve seals are something I am fussy about. The intakes btw were still in spec.
I am not taking sides here as there has been many truthful statements, the $12 to $15K cost to do this job is realistic and you wont get rich by doing them either, you will only need to pull the heads off that engine again and you have made nothing and have been bent over a Porsche engine bay for close to a month, my back is aching just thinking about that
.
There is many different standards when it comes to OEM, I would have thought that Bosch's would have been pretty good but just like I thought Textar's brake pads and another brand of German rotors were O.K on my Merc until it wouldn't stop,
fit the genuine parts, problem solved.
Cheers Greg
You sure have a lot of non Porsche parts for using only Porsche parts........in your 2200 repair.
IMHO, if you do not change the main bearings, you have not done a rebuild, period.
PS, If you think a Autocrap IAC, TPS, or 99% of the OEM parts are the same as OE Porsche parts, then my friend you do need to open up a shop, you will get a education in a hurry.
Have you ever put a scope on some of this aftermarket OEM electrical crap?
I have, and refuse to use it, BTDT.
That must have been a very low mileage motor to not have wear on the exhaust guides, I almost never see a head with any kind of miles on it from any manufacture that did not need a few guides.
IMHO, if you do not change the main bearings, you have not done a rebuild, period.
PS, If you think a Autocrap IAC, TPS, or 99% of the OEM parts are the same as OE Porsche parts, then my friend you do need to open up a shop, you will get a education in a hurry.
Have you ever put a scope on some of this aftermarket OEM electrical crap?
I have, and refuse to use it, BTDT.
That must have been a very low mileage motor to not have wear on the exhaust guides, I almost never see a head with any kind of miles on it from any manufacture that did not need a few guides.
In regard to the heads Ryan how close did you check those exhaust guides? I would be extremely surprised if they were in tolerance, the only way they might be is if the car was a one owner and the owner had always used oils high in ZDDP and other wear additives, if it was running thin synthetics those guides would be toast in pretty short order.
We just pulled down a 30 K mile S4 engine and they were worn over a thou more than the wear limit, putting new seals will only disguise the problem and to me valve seals are something I am fussy about. The intakes btw were still in spec.
I am not taking sides here as there has been many truthful statements, the $12 to $15K cost to do this job is realistic and you wont get rich by doing them either, you will only need to pull the heads off that engine again and you have made nothing and have been bent over a Porsche engine bay for close to a month, my back is aching just thinking about that
.There is many different standards when it comes to OEM, I would have thought that Bosch's would have been pretty good but just like I thought Textar's brake pads and another brand of German rotors were O.K on my Merc until it wouldn't stop,
fit the genuine parts, problem solved.Cheers Greg
07-12-2009, 02:25 PM
#45
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If you "rebuild' your own engine and screw it up or decide not to replace a couple of parts because they "look ok" it's no big deal (relatively). Your labor is free and you get what you pay for.
But, if you rebuild someone else's engine you can't play the "looks good" game. You have to know that it is good.
How many people here would pull their own intake not replace every breather hose under it? How many people would pay someone to remove their intake and replace all but one of the breather hoses under it?
If you "rebuild' your own engine and screw it up or decide not to replace a couple of parts because they "look ok" it's no big deal (relatively). Your labor is free and you get what you pay for.
But, if you rebuild someone else's engine you can't play the "looks good" game. You have to know that it is good.
How many people here would pull their own intake not replace every breather hose under it? How many people would pay someone to remove their intake and replace all but one of the breather hoses under it?
I'm certain that I could walk around my shop and pluck out enough "pretty darn good" used pieces to repair an entire fleet of 928 engines...cam gears, hoses, knock sensors, you name it, etc. I actually save and give this stuff to people that are trying to "repair" a problem, as cheaply as possible. All of this stuff would last way past any warranty period on any car...some of it wouldn't cause any problems past 30,000 miles. But this would not be rebuilt, in my mind, or Greg's mind.
If you've ever really measured a valve guide, per the factory spec, you'd know the valve guide could almost be "missing" before it got past the limits. These limits are printed for the "foolish" people that can't tell when something is worn out and needs to be replaced when apart. These limits are printed to tell someone..."heh, the reason you are using buckets of oil in your engine is that the valve now has the ability to almost turn upside down in the guide." No one leaves exhaust valve guides in an engine with 100,000 miles on it and honestly calls it "rebuilt"....because it is not! It has been repaired!
Taking apart a cam belt failure engine, replacing the obviouly bent and broken pieces with all the cheapest and used parts you can find is not rebuilding. That's repairing. Yes, it might run fine and last for many miles....the 928 version of the internal combustion engine is pretty forgiving before wear causes running problems.
There's a desire and a market for both rebuilding and repairing. Anyone "flipping" cars is going to be a repairer, since they are trying to maximise their profit. They know it....we know it...the buyer should be smart enough to know it.
I understand and know how to do both....I just elect not to do one of them, when I'm "rebuilding" an engine. I'm really up front about his.
Here's how I deal with this: If a potential customer walks in and says...."I don't want to spend much money on this...I'm only going to keep it long enough to get it running good and sell it.", well, this almost never happens, because they never get past the "phone interview and application to do work for this person" stage. There's a bunch of shops, out there, that survive and thrive on this type of customer...put the two together and you're a hero!
If a customer says "Well, I want it to be correct, but I've only driven it 30,000 miles in the past 15 years, is there a way to save a few dollars on this repair?", I have ways to help and will. Now, if this same customer shows up, 30,000 miles later and doesn't remember this conversation and is bitchin about something....and this does happen.....I pull out his invoice and point out where he signed sections about using used or not perfect parts. People have "selective memories."
If a customer says "I beat the crap out of it and want it to run it very hard, forever!", I know exactly how to do this!