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-   -   Cost of S4 engine rebuild? (https://rennlist.com/forums/928-forum/511760-cost-of-s4-engine-rebuild.html)

Dean_Fuller 07-11-2009 10:50 AM

Cost of S4 engine rebuild?
 
Mine is no where near this but I like the car well enough that when it does become time I may. Min is a 1989 with about 135000 miles on the motor. No problems now as far as oil consumption or TB failure....just for future reference.
If all major componants ( block, crank, cams ) are good what does it cost to freshen up a S4? I can do all assembly myself. Any machine work will need to be done by a professional. By professional I mean someone who knows what their doing and not just charges you for it.

Rob Edwards 07-11-2009 11:13 AM

All prices totally off the top of my head:

gasket set $500
connecting rod nuts $32
Piston rings $90
Valve stem seals $80
Valve collets $32
Oil drainback valve bits $40
Valve guides (if needed) $200
main bearings $250
rod bearings $200?
waterpump $250
cam chains $60
chain tensioner pads $250
new lightweight lifters (?) $400
Hall sensor $105
TPS $60
CPS $55
ISV $150
Temp II sensor $40
Knock sensors $75
All intake hoses - $250?
Fuel injector cleaning $160

So a (probably incomplete) parts list = $3000, then there's labor. If you can pull it, disassemble it and clean everything satisfactorily, you'd save some money.

blown 87 07-11-2009 12:18 PM

You are way low on some parts Rob, just the hoses under the intake are going to be a grand.
Porsche rod bearings are going to cost you a grand.
A Porsche water pump is close to a grand.
Lifters are close to 65 each, and you need 32 of them.
I had really close to 2 grand in machine shop charges.
I cant remember what the Cometic head gaskets were, but it was either 100 or 200 each.
Gonna need all new cooling hoses 600 min.
Porsche timing belt 100, kens tennisioner set up, new gears and you are at another grand.
A couple of hundred for powder coating.
And more little stuff than you can think of.

No way you are going to do it right for less than 7 grand in parts and machine shop charges, at least i do not see how you can do it.



Originally Posted by Rob Edwards (Post 6721901)
All prices totally off the top of my head:

gasket set $500
connecting rod nuts $32
Piston rings $90
Valve stem seals $80
Valve collets $32
Oil drainback valve bits $40
Valve guides (if needed) $200
main bearings $250
rod bearings $200?
waterpump $250
cam chains $60
chain tensioner pads $250
new lightweight lifters (?) $400
Hall sensor $105
TPS $60
CPS $55
ISV $150
Temp II sensor $40
Knock sensors $75
All intake hoses - $250?
Fuel injector cleaning $160

So a (probably incomplete) parts list = $3000, then there's labor. If you can pull it, disassemble it and clean everything satisfactorily, you'd save some money.


chrly924s 07-11-2009 12:19 PM

Dean- you gotta move back to Kville if you feel like getting into this!!!:jumper:

86'928S MeteorGrey 07-11-2009 12:26 PM

That sounds about right Rob.

EDIT: wow y'all beat me to it... You gotta be quick on the draw around here... I just bought all of this stuff. If you are selective, about 5 to 6 grand can do it. It all just depends on your ability to NOT replace every thing under the hood... Which clearly, I could not bring myself to do....

But then add:

Timing belt: 100
Porkensioner: 300
Cam sprockets (if worn): 200
Silicone vacuum lines: 100
All oil and water hoses: 400
Cleaning supplies: 100
Oil pump gear (if worn): 100
Plus if hydrolic tappets are the small style, they will need to me replaced if there has been any debris in the oil: about 700?
Heads surfaced and prepped: 300
Misc hardware, head bolts, exhaust studs, etc..: 300


There is probably some more I missed but this brings the price closer to what you will spend.

Rob Edwards 07-11-2009 12:35 PM

Greg-

All of the prices I quoted are ballpark prices on what I've actually paid for items in the last three years. VW lifters can be had for $12 a piece, and I just bought all the intake rubber for the stroker for about $250:

brake venturi Y to brake booster 9.63
right front cam cover to oil filler 15.28
Right Y at air guide elbow to oil filler- GTS 23.20
Left Y at air guide elbow to venturi 14.29
Left Y ar air guide elbow to Idle Stabilizer valve 21.75
ISV to TB housing 13.04
3 way hose TB to oil filler and evap vent valve 29.87
Left intake side cover to brake venturi 12.7
vacuum hose rubber elbows 31.70
MAF to TB big elbow 49.97

Roger's got knock sensors for $32, a CPS for $56, the ISV can be had for $140 if you play the coupons and shipping online game, I just bought a new factory pump for $597, etc., etc. So these are 'best scenario' prices, and may not reflect what you can get 'em for today, in July 2009.

But I left a bunch of things out, as Mike listed (you could add the freeze plugs for the oil galleys in the heads, a new crank gear, oil pump gear, etc. etc), and I completely agree that you're looking at at least $7K if you're going to be doing any head work (which one would be/should be at 135K+ miles)

blown 87 07-11-2009 12:35 PM

You guys must get parts and machine shop work done far cheaper than I can. :thumbup:

Lizard928 07-11-2009 12:35 PM

Some of the things can be done differently.

New rod bearings were not a grand when I got them,

Timing belt, go gates, $42.
WP doesnt have to be Porsche new.

As well there are alot of other things on this list that some would simply replace just because. And there are others who would replace everything just because!
Prime example is the hydraulic lifters, you can check these outside of the car, and if you properly clean everything reusing them is not an issue.

SeanR 07-11-2009 12:36 PM


Originally Posted by blown 87 (Post 6722020)
You are way low on some parts Rob, just the hoses under the intake are going to be a grand. HUH?
Porsche rod bearings are going to cost you a grand.
A Porsche water pump is close to a grand. HUH?
Lifters are close to 65 each, and you need 32 of them.
I had really close to 2 grand in machine shop charges.
I cant remember what the Cometic head gaskets were, but it was either 100 or 200 each.
Gonna need all new cooling hoses 600 min. HUH?
Porsche timing belt 100, kens tennisioner set up, new gears and you are at another grand. HUH?
A couple of hundred for powder coating.
And more little stuff than you can think of.

No way you are going to do it right for less than 7 grand in parts and machine shop charges, at least i do not see how you can do it.

You are paying way too much buddy. Talk about getting ripped off.

blown 87 07-11-2009 12:39 PM

If a 928 owner came to my shop wanting a engine refresh, I would quote 12-15 grand if I did all the work and found no major problems.

I think that is great that you got all the hoses for the intake for 250, I paid over a grand for mine.
Was all of yours Porsche or was it some kind of OEM stuff?


Originally Posted by Rob Edwards (Post 6722066)
Greg-

All of the prices I quoted are ballpark prices on what I've actually paid for items in the last three years. VW lifters can be had for $12 a piece, and I just bought all the intake rubber for the stroker for about $250:

brake venturi Y to brake booster 9.63
right front cam cover to oil filler 15.28
Right Y at air guide elbow to oil filler- GTS 23.20
Left Y at air guide elbow to venturi 14.29
Left Y ar air guide elbow to Idle Stabilizer valve 21.75
ISV to TB housing 13.04
3 way hose TB to oil filler and evap vent valve 29.87
Left intake side cover to brake venturi 12.7
vacuum hose rubber elbows 31.70
MAF to TB big elbow 49.97

Roger's got knock sensors for $32, a CPS for $56, the ISV can be had for $140 if you play the coupons and shipping online game, I just bought a new factory pump for $597, etc., etc. So these are 'best scenario' prices, and may not reflect what you can get 'em for today, in July 2009.

But I left a bunch of things out, as Mike listed (you could add the freeze plugs for the oil galleys in the heads, a new crank gear, oil pump gear, etc. etc), and I completely agree that you're looking at at least $7K if you're going to be doing any head work (which one would be/should be at 135K+ miles)


86'928S MeteorGrey 07-11-2009 12:39 PM


Originally Posted by blown 87 (Post 6722068)
You guys must get parts and machine shop work done far cheaper than I can. :thumbup:

I've got a source, but I've been sworn to secrecy...

blown 87 07-11-2009 12:44 PM


Originally Posted by SeanR (Post 6722072)
You are paying way too much buddy. Talk about getting ripped off.

Factory parts are expensive, but not as expensive as cheap parts in the long run.

I will pull my invoices and see if I do not recall right.

as far as the water pump, did we just not have a thread on Porsche raising the price to 1200 for a new pump?
I will never put anything but a new Porsche WP on mine again.

If I did get ripped off, at least I know I got 100% real factory parts, and to me that is worth something as far as peace of mind goes, for the most part.

James Bailey 07-11-2009 03:00 PM


Originally Posted by blown 87 (Post 6722077)
If a 928 owner came to my shop wanting a engine refresh, I would quote 12-15 grand if I did all the work and found no major problems.

I think that is great that you got all the hoses for the intake for 250, I paid over a grand for mine.
Was all of yours Porsche or was it some kind of OEM stuff?

Are you quoting what you pay for the parts or what you SELL them for because with a bit of research and time plus waiting for parts it is possible for anyone to buy at near wholesale prices.....anyone ! Many shops tend to pay more just to eliminate all the shopping around , deal with a known business, and get the parts on time ( some suppliers make multiple DAILY deliveries) to keep the job rolling besides they tend to just mark them up and bill the customer. The Hobbiest at home can take YEARS to rebuild an engine....

blown 87 07-11-2009 03:20 PM


Originally Posted by James Bailey (Post 6722273)
Are you quoting what you pay for the parts or what you SELL them for because with a bit of research and time plus waiting for parts it is possible for anyone to buy at near wholesale prices.....anyone ! Many shops tend to pay more just to eliminate all the shopping around , deal with a known business, and get the parts on time ( some suppliers make multiple DAILY deliveries) to keep the job rolling besides they tend to just mark them up and bill the customer. The Hobbiest at home can take YEARS to rebuild an engine....

What I pay for parts.
with some suppliers I get 15-20% off list.
I am a big fan of factory parts on customers cars.

And you are 100% right on the highlighted parts, I can not afford to have a car on a lift for weeks.
Get em in, get em out.

ptuomov 07-11-2009 03:50 PM

Is it really true that one can't get rod bearings for less than a grand?

I did a lot of research and it took some time, but I got forged 4340 H-beam rods, custom designed forged 4032 pistons, NPR gas-nitrided steel rings, and pins and locks for USD 2,500. It's going to be a bummer if I now have to pay USD 1,000 for the rod bearings. :-(

It's going to be especially insulting to my sensibilities to pay USD 1,000 for them since the rod bearing materials and construction really are substandard compared to what you can buy for a small fraction of the price for say mod Fords.

In fact, a couple of months ago I asked around for how much would it cost to make tri-metal copper bearings with the modern surface coatings. The answer is $30k for tooling but not much per set after that. I passed. ;-)



Originally Posted by blown 87 (Post 6722020)
You are way low on some parts Rob, just the hoses under the intake are going to be a grand.
Porsche rod bearings are going to cost you a grand.



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