Hilton

Ok, I'm a noob tuner, but I'm willing to learn.

I'm on the hunt for a wideband O2 sensor and am trying to work out how many inputs is the minimum I want? Yes, more is better, but more is also more expensive

So, what might I want to log or display on the gauge?

And for those who tune, what are the most useful inputs for adjusting fuel and ignition maps? (the most useful will form a minimum-set for number of inputs)

So far, I figure the things that can be logged usefully are: (bold ones are what I think are useful for analysing/tuning fuel/ignition maps? but being a noob I could be totally wrong so advice appreciated)

• AFR (duh - but if I didn't put it, someone would)
• rpm (a few data units have this as a dedicated input)
• temp II signal
• EZK load signal
• Injector duty cycle
• Wot switch
• Road speed (not really essential)
• Knock (may not be sampled fast enough to be useful?)

Also, with some senders and an adapter plug:

• Oil temperature (useful for display in cockpit)
• Intake Air Temp (using a silicone plug in the airbox where the air pump valve used to dump)

Anything else, and do I have the right "must-haves" in bold for tuning?(i.e. need 4 inputs)

zoltan944

Im sure many will have different thoughts, but I am a fan of the AEM wideband that is now extra super cheap on ebay these days at $200 and tuning from watching.

If your gonna datalog having RPM and A/F together on a plot is the most useful.
The rest of your list could be helpful to know its right, but not that useful in actual tuning in my opinion.

Lizard928

A WBO2 is an output device with no inputs.
The WBO2 controller is a device with 1 input from the WBO2, and 2-4 outputs.

You are looking for a Datalogger.

Hilton

Fair enough - although the controller and data logger seems to be a combined function from many manufacturers?

I'm looking for a kit that consists of sensor, controller, data logger, and a configurable external display/gauge.

There's a fair few options - so my question is how many channel inputs should I consider as a minimum for effective tuning? For example, the Techedge 2J1 is cheap, but I'm concerned it may not have enough input channels for data logging.

RicerSchnitzzle

http://www.gtechpro.com/egs.html

I've been very happy with my G-Tech. They now have a multi-purpose gauge that monitors and datalogs rpms/ AFR, Temp etc.. Up to 8 inputs. Pretty cool in one dash top gauge. PLus cool ricey shift lights.

It adds the accelerometer so you can immediatley see the real world HP/Torque benefits of your tuning.

Mike Frye

Hilton,

I'm using the Innovate LM-1, but there are a few Innovate products that are newer and can do more, including the accelerometer function Ricer mentioned.

I thought I was going to be using lots of different inputs and got the 'Bridgit' from Porken (allows you to tap into the LH without hacking the harness (!). In practice though, I think aside from RPMs and AFR, the rest are really just very specific to what you want to do.

I'd like to tap into the temp sensors just because I want to monitor that stuff, but it doesn't have much to do with tuning.

I think the 4 that you've got in bold will be more than enough and if you've got a logger that can handle 4, you can always switch the last couple around if you want to monitor different stuff.

jcorenman

Hilton, the answer all depends on what you are trying to do.

If you just want to monitor the general health of things, and have some help diagnosing problems when they occur, then a simple WBO2 sensor and a display (or computer) and a voltmeter will do the job. And maybe a diagnostic tester (Bosch Hammer, JDS Spanner or Theo's diagnostic tester) to check for error codes.

If you want to optimize fuel and ignition timing, then what you really want is a Sharktuner-2. I'll explain why but first some background: I started down the same road a year ago, with an Innovate LC1 WBO2 controller and LMA3 data-logger. Then Louie loaned me his ST to help chase a no-idle problem with the GT (turned out to be the MAF) and I was hooked. Since then I've been developing some software to help with ST log analysis (that was my job in real life-- engineering and software, that is). John Speake is interested in distributing it and has loaned me a prototype ST2 to help out, there may be other arrangements in the future. So please treat this with the skepticism appropriate for the recently-converted.

For the 87-on cars the LH handles the fueling and uses RPM and a MAF-derived "load" signal to determine the basic injector timing by looking up correction values in a 2D map (the base fuel-map). There are also secondary maps for adding fuel during warmup, and during WOT. To change the fueling you need to modify the base map, and to do that you need to know RPM (easy) and the MAF-derived load signal (not easy-- that is an internal calculation by the LH and not accessible externally).

The horsepower gains are mostly with ignition timing, and it's no secret that the factory left some on the table. The reason is that the factory LH/EZK mapping has to work for any combination of parts, with any production tolerances. So for a given car with a particular set of parts there is almost certainly room to optimize things. The EZK does a very nice job of monitoring knocks and pulling timing out as needed, within limits. Watching knocks (which you can do with a knock-lite, but not directly with a data logger) won't tell you hard far you are pushing the EZK-- because while you are busy watching for knocks, the EZK is busy getting rid of them-- again, within limits. What you want to know is how close to that limit you are, and to do that you need to get inside the EZK.

What the Sharktuner does is provide access to all of the sensors that the LH and EZK use to determine fuel and spark, and also tells you what the boxes are doing with that information (e.g. the LH's mystery-load signal, and how many cylinders are retarded and by how much each). You can log data and review it later, or tweak things in real time.

You do need to be careful-- with control comes risks, and there are some seemingly-innocent mistakes you can make that can do damage. The Sharktuner-2 manual on the JDSporsche website is a great place to start the learning curve.

Cheers, Jim

Z

If you want it just for tuning, I'd say that the minimum number of inputs to your wide band device that you need is... zero.

If you're going to be keeping the stock LH/EZK engine management, and tuning with a SharkTuner, the SharkTuner will be logging and displaying RPM, load, knock, and other data, so you don't need any wide band hardware to be doing it too.

If you're going to be switching to an aftermarket engine management system of some kind, like Megasquirt, Autronic, Motec, etc., those will also have their own monitoring and logging for RPM and the various other signals used for tuning.

If you're going to be tuning with a piggy-back computer, like the SMT-6, it will also have it's own RPM and MAF signal for load monitoring and logging.

If you're going to be tuning by just adjusting fuel pressure, you won't be able to do it diffferent amounts for different RPM points, so you could just use the air/fuel alone without any RPM.

All you really need is a wide band unit with an output to the device you're tuning with, or to a laptop with the particular wide band's software if you're tuning with just fuel pressure.

If you want to monitor or log some stuff for reasons other than just the regular tuning, the list can get as long as you want. I thought about it for a little while one day and came up with around 60 different things on my car that I'd kind of like to log, to see what they're really doing.

Hilton

Thanks Z and Jim for your very informative posts.

My intention is to initially use the data-logging for general health check of my 928's (otherwise I'll rapidly spend the cost of a wideband setup at the dyno just to check AFR vs. rpm/load).

However, I want to make sure that the data-logging setup I get is one that I can grow into, and not out of, not just with 928's, but also other cars, some of which may have boost.

A sharktuner2 is in my plan, but not until I've modified my '89 a little more (cams) and will get greater benefits from it. Beyond that, I wanted to make sure that any other cars I have can get adequate support from the data-logging for diagnostic/tuning purposes, whether its a case of third party tools, or adjusting fuel pressure and bypass valves, or dumping chips and analysing the binaries to make map changes manually.

All this has solidified my decision somewhat - I'm leaning towards a device which has afr/rpm, and an additional 4 programmable inputs.

Front runners are the Techedge 3A2, and the Innovate LM-2, or possibly the Innovate LC-1/LMA-3 combo.

All are probably overkill for my immediate needs, but I have a background in software and databases, so maximising future integration options is always good.

dprantl

The TechEdge 2J1 will log AFR and RPM and two programmable inputs, if that is enough for you. It is definitely the cheapest way to go for any kind of logging (why log AFR without RPM). Later if you get the SharkTuner2, it will do the additional logging you need.

Dan
'91 928GT S/C 475hp/460lb.ft

Bill Ball

Hilton:

Where do you expect to get injector duty cycle information?

I have used my TechEdge to log, but ultimately is is not useful for tuning. You can get RPM, AFR and MAF voltage easily enough, but that doesn't tell you where you are in the fuel maps as the rows are based on a MAF number that is derived from but not directly related to MAF voltage.

BTW, you asked me about TechEdge versus Innovate. It's a toss-up. I've used both and found pros/cons with both. I've had trouble with TE's relatively crude 3rd-party only software not being able to access the TE's logging memory. I've had trouble with my Innovate LC-1 WB gauge output. Innovate has more user friendly manuals, whereas TE is more electronic tech-oriented and does not provide much understandable step-by-step setup advice. Goerge Suennen has been using an Innovate LM-1 to log all kinds of crap for ages and it has been very relaible.

Jim Morton

I am surprised by Bill's report as he has seen Dennis and me use the Techedge software very successfully to log and trap many various I/O's about the engine and engine mangement system. As example, we rigged an input of a customized oil level sender to log low oil level in the sump as well as a piezo pressure transducer in the oil galley. The Winlog software allowed us the set parametric values from analog inputs for good / bad oil level and pressures... cool stuff !

IMHO, Winlog is anything but crude and actually quite easy to use. For me, WinLog is a bunch of fun to use and make up "dash boards". Another bonus is that you natively get a CSV text file of logged data out of the TE system.

Overall, the folks at Techedge have been responsive to my inquiries and support the units well considering they are "down under". The TE product line offers a wide range of price point vs. features and I really like that you can use both Bosch LSU series and NTK WBO2 sensors with their newer units.

From a year's plus exposure with both Innovate and Techedge as used on 928's, I'm Techedge all the way.

DISCLAIMER --- The above now said, I am not a paid spokesperson or affiliate of TE... just a happy customer !

Bill Ball

Yeah, Jim, the TechEdge has been flawless except for access to to onboard logging memory. Direct logging with Winlog has worked fine, but I can't access the memory logs despite all kinds of manipulations. I guess it's not common, but I'm not alone.

jcorenman

The Techedge wbo2 controllers have one big advantage over the Innovate units in my view: a proper differential output for the wbo2 signal. Analog signals always need a reference point which is usually ground (i.e. car chassis).

But not all grounds are really "ground": a ground-point can have a voltage on it relative to some other ground point, because of current flowing through the various ground wires. Innovate uses the same ground connection for both the wbo2 signal output and the sensor heater-current (which is a few amps). So some ground noise is inevitable, which will add noise to the wbo2 signal to the Sharktuner or wherever.

Techedge avoids this by providing two output connections, one for the signal (WBlin+) and a second for the corresponding ground connection(WBlin-). This latter connection is actually a reference input back into the wbo2 output amp to cancel the effect of any ground noise.

For the Innovate, be sure to use a common ground point for both the Innovate controller and the Sharktuner, and ideally separated from other grounds.

The 3A2 has some packaging advantages over the 2J1-- the cable is detachable and the plug will go through the existing hole for the NBO2 sensor; it has a USB connection; and the terminal-block for the external connections is handy. But unless you need the extra logging inputs it's not likely worth the extra cost-- just make a larger hole, get a USB adapter, and use a small euro-style terminal strip for the connections.

Cheers, Jim

Hilton

I think it should be possible to build a circuit to convert injector pulse width to voltage in a range suitable for an input channel on a data-logger - need a capacitor to charge during pulse, then switch voltage to a second capacitor to feed output. Adjusting the circuit would be a pain (need an oscilloscope and a waveform generator), but once done it'd give a reliable injector duty cycle signal after 1 pulse/revolution.

Its a common enough requirement that there are probably some diy kits out there for it aimed at people with pre-OBDII cars - if not I'll have to spend a little time on it.

My understanding was that the EZK load signal is available for logging - pin 25 on the 35-pin LH connector? That coupled with rpm and AFR should be enough to calculate map changes?

I'm still on the fence about innovate vs. techedge - techedge are local, and I like how straightfoward their website is (a little unreadable, but pretty solid info). The innovate devices are certainly slicker, and I like the fact that you can chain innovate devices - although I'm wary of future support for older devices in that chain.

Oh well - planning on deciding today which data-logger to go with.