WallyP

If you are going to drive it in heavy traffic often, the five-speed sucks - and both of mine are five-speeds.

If you are going to drive it on the open road, the five-speed is great.

BTW - the torque converter gives the equivalent of an extra gear.

SteveG

I love it

+ for left foot braking.

I admit there is some primitive part of the brain that gets endorphin rushed by the direct drive aspect of a manual. At the same time, it is like cornering, if you aren't pushing the limits of the turn-in, tread slip, exit point, i.e., pushing the limit of shifting means missing a gear (occasionally) and that sound is literally like root canal on your box.

Marine Blue

Except for the irritation part I couldn't have said it better myself.

Seriously, an auto will never anticipate your next move so why not just have full control over the car.

SeanR

Never grabs a higher gear for me.
No lack of engine braking here.
No pause for me here.

It's all in how you use that auto shifter.

dcmelik

I'm sure this will or has been discussed but I've always been told that the flex plate/TT migration issue makes owning automatics more problematic. I've also owned a 5-speed.

I must say that the 87S4 auto, even with additional horsepower, does not seem to be in the same league as my 81 5-speed. I know this is counter-intuitive but you can ask BlackShark who owns the 81 competition package now and also has late model autos. I think he'd tell you the same thing.

On the flip side, the last time my (now) wife and I went to SITM (our second time), it was with the auto, and she drove. It was fun for her and a break for me.

Some of that is personal preference. Actually, all of it.

worf928

Unless I am grossly mistaken the "racing world" hasn't wrapped it's head around automatic transmissions. It has wrapped it's head around sequential manual transmissions and dual-clutch transmissions. But, there's no torque-converting power-losing viscously-coupled slush boxes running around the Sarthe as far as I know.

The issue isn't lack of a third pedal or automated gear changes. It's the viscously-coupling and associated power loss.

As I said, I may be grossly mistaken. If anyone can find a successful, non-trivial, non-experimental racing (oh, and non-drag-racing) application of a viscously-coupled slush box, I'll take it all back.


Viscous coupling irritates me.
Loosing ~5% power during acceleration irritates me.
Needing to check for a flexing flex plate irritates me.
Needing to feed a box its fluid one teaspoon at a time irritates me. (Yeah, yeah, you can use a pump. That's irritating too.)
Rogerboxes peeing their blood-red fluid onto my garage floor irritates me.

The 928 manual box loves to be shifted quickly. The more-quickly you shift the smoother it is.
However, you have to match revs going up and down. And if you don't already know how to match revs you do not want to learn on the 928.

Exactly.

I've driven the Audi dual-clutch box. (Which, BTW, is functionally identical to Porsche's new PDK system.) It's way, way better than BMW's SMG (sequential manual gearbox), but, no, it doesn't do exactly what you want when you want it to.

My next DD will have a dual-clutch box. They are almost as good as a left-leg-powered manual.

That said, the car companies are doing an absolutely terrible job of marketing these (relatively-)new automated manual gearboxes. Terrible. I think 99.999% of the car buying public doesn't have a single clue as to the difference between a "manumatic" and "automanual" transmission. Unfortunately, 99.0% don't care. However, the 0.999% that might care aren't presented with the information.

I don't have a problem with automated clutch operation. I don't have a problem with only two pedals (although I wish the brake pedal on automatics wasn't 572 inches wide.)

I have a problem with slush boxes. They are too slushy.

Bill Ball

There was something wrong with the autobox your drove. Properly adjusted it won't downshift on light throttle and should allow plenty of engine braking even too much if you aren't careful.

Bill Ball

The manual clutch is on its way out. F1 transmissions have electronic clutches and no clutch pedal. Many of the Ferraris only come with this tranny. The Audi dual clutch has no clutch pedal either. They even control power during a shift like an autobox, so you can keep your foot on the gas pedal and get 100ms shifts. These transmissions just lack a torque converter.

http://www.autozine.org/technical_sc...ear_manual.htm

Anyway, I don't mean to raise the flame level on this debate, as it's mostly personal preference. I just think most of the negative commentary about the "slushbox" being inferior is exaggerated. If you leave the autobox is D it's going to feel pokey. Row the shift **** a little bit and for all practical purposes you've got a semi-automatic with good control over gears. I have loads of fun moving the gears around when driving the twisties. Most people who drive behind me think I have a manual. Also, I'm at 200K miles, many of which would be considered tortuous for the drivetrain, and I haven't had to replace a clutch or do anything at all to the autobox besides fluid and filter changes. However, lately I think the shifting form 2nd to 3rd WOT is less crisp than it used to be. At some point it will get a well-deserved refurb, but I'm not there yet. George Suennen is running an autobox in his 198.6 MPH open road racer. The transmission has never been an issue. It just works and works well. We spend all of our time worrying about other parts on the car.

Mako 928

For me the 5 speed is the way to go. Driving on the coast ( Hwy. 1) and on the back roads, going through the gears and especially down shifting ( heal and toe) is what it is all about to me. I get a total feeling of engine rpm control and feed back and this is what going for a "drive" is all about.
Having a shorter shifter and also having replaced the ball cup and shift coupler, shifting is quick and precise.
I agree that driving in heavy traffic is not fun but that is not why I have a 5 speed. I have heard nothing but positive reports about the Rogerbox and feel that this is another reason why the 928 is a very well designed and thought out car. This shows that the 928 can do many things and do them well.
But again for me the 5 speed is the way to go.

Nightfly

It's all about control and performance. If you're auto is set up correctly, control isn't a problem. Performance, well, sure, a 5 speed manual is superior to an auto if the driver is an expert at what he is doing and does it exactly correct every single time; miss a shift, and the guy with the auto flies by. If you're not an expert, the auto has the advantage. All the statistics quoted about manual trans cars are based on professional drivers. Sure, we all like to think that we are 'experts', but that's simply not the case (much the same as all the 911 owners like to think they are an expert who can control the wild rear engine beast). The reality is, most of us here are good, but not great, drivers. Yes, we like to pretend to ourselves that we could drive and compete in F1, or LeMans, or whatever; the reality is, the vast majority of us cannot. Drive what you like. Both are fun. Me, I spend way too much time in traffic to enjoy a manual, it just becomes tedious after a while, and my left knee's crunching cartilage just doesn't need the workout anymore.
Give me a 'rogerbox' anytime. Four speeds are plenty on the street.

Gary Knox

I've driven both auto and manual S4's on several tracks. The acceleration on downshift JUST after the apex of the boot at Watkins Glen (moderate corner going significantly uphill) from the manual DOES NOT match that of the auto (going from 3rd to 2nd). I had a friend/instructor who drives a GT3 in Club Races who always commented on the great accleration of the '88 S4 in that corner. Your experiences may vary. I currently drive a 5 speed to, from, and on the track, but the 2 1/2 season daily driver is an automatic.
Good luck in your purchase - drive several of both. Proper adjustment on an auto is key as several have said.
Gary Knox

Leon Speed

Exactly. We all know auto's are far superior

worf928

Neither do I. I figured 95% of this thread is tongue-in-cheek.

And it has been that way for about 20 years. It has been that way since before I started following F1 in the early 90s.

The "F1" tranny is much more like a "manual" gear box than it is like a slush box.

You didn't read my post. Otherwise you'd have thunk that when I drove a DSG-equipped Audi I might have noticed the lack of a clutch pedal?

A 'slush box' viscously-coupled transmission is not a traditional manual transmission with a torque converter bolted on the nose. The guts of the boxes are as different as night and day. F1 transmissions have electronically controlled clutches, not electronic clutches - there is still a plate(s) and mechanical bits and pieces. And otherwise have little in common with either auto or manual 928 gearboxes. Their architecture is totally different.

The point about "Marketing" in my first post is really coming to the fore here. My preference for a non-slush-box has nothing to do with the user interface. On the other hand that - the user interface - is all that you and most other folks seem to discuss and compare. Hence the complete confusion as to the design-difference between a "manumatic" and an "automanual" transmission.

The user interface - whether or not the gear-change is left-leg powered or electron-powered - has little to do with the architecture inside the box itself. My dislike of "slush boxes" has nothing to do with their left-leg-less gear changes and everything do to with the guts of the box.

The "slush" box is on the way out. It is a 50-year old analog solution in a digital world. It's a solution engineered by some very bright engineers in a time when computers were the size of buildings and just about anything automatic had to be done the hard way.

Dual-(dry-)clutch gearboxes have replaced slushies in Porsches and will soon replace slushies in the mid- and high-end market. I bet that within 15 years very few new cars will be offered with a slushy.

WallyP

Worf says. "As I said, I may be grossly mistaken. If anyone can find a successful, non-trivial, non-experimental racing (oh, and non-drag-racing) application of a viscously-coupled slush box, I'll take it all back."

You mean other than Jim Hall's Chaparral?

(You didn't specify that it had to be current!)

IcemanG17

Dave
Dual Clutch automated manuals are the way of the future......my M3 has one (DCT or DKG) with 7 gears and it is SO sweet.....super fast shifts (3rd gear scratch with ease)...launch control built in.....the ability to snap your head back with brutality or shift so smooth you can't hardly tell it shifted unless you look at the indicator....it is WORLDS better than the old SMG....

For racing you never take both hands off the wheel too, which is VERY nice.....

Now if there only was a reasonable cost way to fit one to a 928......bummer is its heavy at over 200lbs