Upper BJ; Need Help; Fast!!!! Update with Pics............Fixed
10-31-2008, 05:39 PM
#16
Rennlist Member
10-31-2008, 06:54 PM
#17
I don't think it's recommended to use a die to "repair" threads but the proper tool is a thread chaser which will not remove metal but only straighten up the threads. Most tool dealers sell them
10-31-2008, 07:45 PM
#18
The proper tools to do this job, from the description are as follows:
Nut Splitter;
Die Nut- this is a hardened steel nut that has three to four sections cut out around the the thread area that act as thread cutters and it will clean up the threads by turning the nut with a spanner;
Thread chaser- this is a flat hardened tool steel tool with the thread prodile ground into the end;
Thread file - as shown in the photograph;
Thread Button Die, the adjustable type; and
Patience with axial alignment of the ball joint stud and the axial removal tool.
From the description the top part of the stud thread has been bent by the removal tool not pushing on the stud in axial alignment?
If you try to get the nut off over the bent area of the stud you can bind the threads between the nut and the stud and destroy the threads.
Use the nut splitter suitable for the nut size. Try your local hard wear store or tool shop. The nut splitter to use is the collar type that fits over the nut and has a set screw with a cutter head fitted to the end. When the set screw is screwed in it will split the nut at one of the flats and release the thread and allow the nut to come off.
Do you need the nut to be on the stud to remove (by pushing on the top of the nut/stud)to get the tapered section of the ball joint out of the mounting?
If so then you need to straighten up the stud.
I would now use the die nut to chase the thread down to the bent part from the top. Do not chase the thread all the way down as you will remove too much metal at the bend and ruin the stud.
Fit a new nut to the top of the ball joint thread and screw it down to the bent area until it just start to grab.
Now use a brass dolley and hammer to strike the nut in line with the bent area and see whether you can straighten the stud section.
If you don't want to start hammering in this area or cannot get enough "swing ark" then get a ring spanner and place on the nut and see whether you can actually lever the stud straight. You can position the nut at the top of the stud to do this but always have a full nut on the thread to protect the thread.
When the stud is pretty straight clean up the top area of tapered section at the bottom of the stud and apply some release solvent to this area for a time.
Now try again to to push the ball joint out again, however, before trying too much force check whether the tool is actuall pushing the stud in an axial alignment otherwise you will bend the stud again. The best method with the stud pusher tool is to apply pressure axial in line with the axis of the stud and then give it a sharp bang on the top with a hammer to brake the taper away, if there is room.
If you don't want to push it out you can buy the wedge type of ball joint removal tool if it will fit in between the ball joint and its carrier. This tool pulls the tapered section out, it does not push on the stud to do this, so the area to work with is stronger and you can give the end of the wedge tool a good crack to break away the taper.
OK, now if you can get the ball joint out, you will need to remove if completely to fully repair the thread.
If you want to do a good job, I would take it to a machine shop where it can be put in a lathe to check the run out of the bent stud. The lathe operator will be able to straighten the stud whilst it is in the chuck of the lathe.
The operator will now probably use a thread chaser or a thread file to clean up the threads and he can then use the adjustable button die. This die looks like a button however it is cut through one side. It fits into a special holder fitted with a conical ended set screw that when screwed up against the cut in the button die it will open up the die to get the right depth of thread to ensure a proper thread profile.
When the repair work is completed the thread should have sufficient thread profile to restore the full holing strength. When threads sizes and stud diameter are chosen there is a safety factor involved, so you will end up with sufficient strength left in the ball join as the main load is carried on the tapered section of the ball joint.
You can now proceed to renew the rubber cap and reassemble.
You now have the 101 on ball joint removal and thread repairs.
When I remove ball joints I always try and get the ball joint and the removal tool into a position where I can give the nut screwed to the top of the thread of the stud a solid crack with a copper hammer to brake the tape away.
Tails 1990 928S4 Auto.
Nut Splitter;
Die Nut- this is a hardened steel nut that has three to four sections cut out around the the thread area that act as thread cutters and it will clean up the threads by turning the nut with a spanner;
Thread chaser- this is a flat hardened tool steel tool with the thread prodile ground into the end;
Thread file - as shown in the photograph;
Thread Button Die, the adjustable type; and
Patience with axial alignment of the ball joint stud and the axial removal tool.
From the description the top part of the stud thread has been bent by the removal tool not pushing on the stud in axial alignment?
If you try to get the nut off over the bent area of the stud you can bind the threads between the nut and the stud and destroy the threads.
Use the nut splitter suitable for the nut size. Try your local hard wear store or tool shop. The nut splitter to use is the collar type that fits over the nut and has a set screw with a cutter head fitted to the end. When the set screw is screwed in it will split the nut at one of the flats and release the thread and allow the nut to come off.
Do you need the nut to be on the stud to remove (by pushing on the top of the nut/stud)to get the tapered section of the ball joint out of the mounting?
If so then you need to straighten up the stud.
I would now use the die nut to chase the thread down to the bent part from the top. Do not chase the thread all the way down as you will remove too much metal at the bend and ruin the stud.
Fit a new nut to the top of the ball joint thread and screw it down to the bent area until it just start to grab.
Now use a brass dolley and hammer to strike the nut in line with the bent area and see whether you can straighten the stud section.
If you don't want to start hammering in this area or cannot get enough "swing ark" then get a ring spanner and place on the nut and see whether you can actually lever the stud straight. You can position the nut at the top of the stud to do this but always have a full nut on the thread to protect the thread.
When the stud is pretty straight clean up the top area of tapered section at the bottom of the stud and apply some release solvent to this area for a time.
Now try again to to push the ball joint out again, however, before trying too much force check whether the tool is actuall pushing the stud in an axial alignment otherwise you will bend the stud again. The best method with the stud pusher tool is to apply pressure axial in line with the axis of the stud and then give it a sharp bang on the top with a hammer to brake the taper away, if there is room.
If you don't want to push it out you can buy the wedge type of ball joint removal tool if it will fit in between the ball joint and its carrier. This tool pulls the tapered section out, it does not push on the stud to do this, so the area to work with is stronger and you can give the end of the wedge tool a good crack to break away the taper.
OK, now if you can get the ball joint out, you will need to remove if completely to fully repair the thread.
If you want to do a good job, I would take it to a machine shop where it can be put in a lathe to check the run out of the bent stud. The lathe operator will be able to straighten the stud whilst it is in the chuck of the lathe.
The operator will now probably use a thread chaser or a thread file to clean up the threads and he can then use the adjustable button die. This die looks like a button however it is cut through one side. It fits into a special holder fitted with a conical ended set screw that when screwed up against the cut in the button die it will open up the die to get the right depth of thread to ensure a proper thread profile.
When the repair work is completed the thread should have sufficient thread profile to restore the full holing strength. When threads sizes and stud diameter are chosen there is a safety factor involved, so you will end up with sufficient strength left in the ball join as the main load is carried on the tapered section of the ball joint.
You can now proceed to renew the rubber cap and reassemble.
You now have the 101 on ball joint removal and thread repairs.
When I remove ball joints I always try and get the ball joint and the removal tool into a position where I can give the nut screwed to the top of the thread of the stud a solid crack with a copper hammer to brake the tape away.
Tails 1990 928S4 Auto.
10-31-2008, 08:28 PM
#19
Rennlist Member
Wow, can't beat that last post for step-by-step.
On the minor side topic of the wedge tool, here's one in action, removing the steering rack. Note the insertion of an open-end wrench as a spacer to extend the capacity of the wedge. Might work for your tool as well:
On the minor side topic of the wedge tool, here's one in action, removing the steering rack. Note the insertion of an open-end wrench as a spacer to extend the capacity of the wedge. Might work for your tool as well:
11-01-2008, 07:47 AM
#20
Craic Head
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Mike..............I was just replacing the boot due to it splitting.
I was hoping not to have to re-build the BJ, but it seems now with a buggered up thread on the ball joint I may have to.
I am going to try and use the die first to see if I can repair the threads, they are as you say "just in the way" as the nut makes its way up.
If the die does not work..............then I need to know what my options are:
1. Rebuild kit and new ball joint.
2. New upper A arm.
I do not know what other options I have.
I was hoping not to have to re-build the BJ, but it seems now with a buggered up thread on the ball joint I may have to.
I am going to try and use the die first to see if I can repair the threads, they are as you say "just in the way" as the nut makes its way up.
If the die does not work..............then I need to know what my options are:
1. Rebuild kit and new ball joint.
2. New upper A arm.
I do not know what other options I have.
If you can save the ball joint piece, Carl at 928MS has a kit for repacking it. I've got a set sitting on the shelf waiting to rise to the top of my list. His kit doesn't come with the ball.
If the threads can't be saved on yours you may need to buy another upper a-arm, but just for the purpose of pulling the ball joint out of it and putting it in yours (which would mean you don't have to remove your upper a-arm.
) It would be overkill on the price, but at least you'd get a good part to rebuild yours.I'm pretty sure it's available for your MY as well, but I'd check with Carl.
11-01-2008, 11:07 AM
#21
Racer
Thread Starter
Shawn,
If you can save the ball joint piece, Carl at 928MS has a kit for repacking it. I've got a set sitting on the shelf waiting to rise to the top of my list. His kit doesn't come with the ball.
If the threads can't be saved on yours you may need to buy another upper a-arm, but just for the purpose of pulling the ball joint out of it and putting it in yours (which would mean you don't have to remove your upper a-arm.) It would be overkill on the price, but at least you'd get a good part to rebuild yours.
I'm pretty sure it's available for your MY as well, but I'd check with Carl.
If you can save the ball joint piece, Carl at 928MS has a kit for repacking it. I've got a set sitting on the shelf waiting to rise to the top of my list. His kit doesn't come with the ball.
If the threads can't be saved on yours you may need to buy another upper a-arm, but just for the purpose of pulling the ball joint out of it and putting it in yours (which would mean you don't have to remove your upper a-arm.
) It would be overkill on the price, but at least you'd get a good part to rebuild yours.I'm pretty sure it's available for your MY as well, but I'd check with Carl.
I am hoping I can repair the threads, as the damage is only midway on the shaft and not in the area that holds the torque. The damage on the bolt appears to be caused by the nut being pushed at an angle and "smushing" maybe 2 or 2 threads. The nut is off, it was never stuck on the bolt, sorry if I gave that impression.
Thanks for the tip on Carl's kit, I spoke with 928MS yesterday and they said they have some extra ball's but usually not for sale..........if I need to go that route I am open to begging!!!
Buying the a-arm and using the ball joint is also a good idea, I know with a used one there is a core charge I think,so not sure if they would accept my buggered ball joint back, but I guess they would?
I am going the die route and hope that repairs the threads.........
On another note, I am also trying to figure out why this happened? I applied the same technique in removing the passenger side as I did the drivers side (which was successful). Even a stubborn BJ should have popped out with that tool............it would seem that the nut on the ball joint took the majority of the pressure from the tool, causing the damage, so was the tool not on straight? Or should I have removed the nut and just been pushing on the bolt?
Also the BJ tool did release the joint a touch, like it started to pop out then got hung up? Could that be caused by the angle of the a-arm? I thought when you raised the car, you would unload the suspension making it easy for the BJ to release, would jacking the lower a-arm made this easier?
Thanks for all your guys help.................I am just so bummed out that it went this way.
I hate getting in there to do a project and doing more harm then good, nothing bothers more then that!
11-01-2008, 02:47 PM
#22
Racer
Thread Starter
Here are some pics..............
1. You can see the lower threads are buggered.
2. Looks like the a arm is at an angle, you can also see
that the BJ has come out a bit.
3. Shot from underside........
Now that there are pics............any further comments are welcome!
1. You can see the lower threads are buggered.
2. Looks like the a arm is at an angle, you can also see
that the BJ has come out a bit.
3. Shot from underside........
Now that there are pics............any further comments are welcome!
Last edited by sjfarbs; 03-04-2009 at 08:32 PM.
11-01-2008, 03:30 PM
#23
Rennlist Member
Looks like it dried out(grease gone from boot) and rusted in place. Give it a good shot of PB Blaster or Kroil, put the tool on there to create tension against the ball joint, and leave it in place for a while. Tap on the tool occasionally to help it along. After some time, it should come loose. Sometimes you have to leave it tensioned overnight to get results.
When you get around to putting it back together, swipe a thin film of anti-seize on the taper before re-assembly so that it will come apart easily next time.
When you get around to putting it back together, swipe a thin film of anti-seize on the taper before re-assembly so that it will come apart easily next time.
11-01-2008, 04:01 PM
#24
Racer
Thread Starter
Right...........used some PB, still banging away, a fair amount of the taper is out, but still not budging, keep those suggestions coming! If I jack up the lower ball joint a bit, I can get it to "pop" like it wants to come out, but still no go........
Does that mean anything?
Does that mean anything?
11-01-2008, 04:34 PM
#25
Rennlist Member
That "pop" is probably just the upper a-arm interacting with the tool.
Re-reading the thread -- the fact that it moved some without releasing completely is not a good sign. Generally these things don't move unless they are completely free, if that makes sense... There is probably some galling, and it sounds like a piece of material has come loose either from the BJ or the bore and become wedged.
I suggest you start making calls right now(While stores are open), find a Sears or hardware store that has a metric thread file(pic above) -- not a thread chaser like the below pic, most of those won't have room to swing:
So clean up the threads until you can get the nut back on there. Spray some PB into the taper, then torque the nut back down to spec, or until the joint moves back to its original position. Then put the puller back on and try again. Working it back and forth a couple times like this may break it free.
Hopefully the galling hasn't destroyed the knuckle.
Do they salt the roads where you live? Even if they don't, the passenger side of the car tends to get into more water than the driver side, and generally will have more corrosion-related issues. Something to think about when you're doing maintenance.
Re-reading the thread -- the fact that it moved some without releasing completely is not a good sign. Generally these things don't move unless they are completely free, if that makes sense... There is probably some galling, and it sounds like a piece of material has come loose either from the BJ or the bore and become wedged.
I suggest you start making calls right now(While stores are open), find a Sears or hardware store that has a metric thread file(pic above) -- not a thread chaser like the below pic, most of those won't have room to swing:
So clean up the threads until you can get the nut back on there. Spray some PB into the taper, then torque the nut back down to spec, or until the joint moves back to its original position. Then put the puller back on and try again. Working it back and forth a couple times like this may break it free.
Hopefully the galling hasn't destroyed the knuckle.
Do they salt the roads where you live? Even if they don't, the passenger side of the car tends to get into more water than the driver side, and generally will have more corrosion-related issues. Something to think about when you're doing maintenance.
11-01-2008, 05:04 PM
#26
Racer
Thread Starter
OK.
Thread is fixed, the nut will now thread all the way up the bolt!!!
I am trying to take your advise and re-seat and start over, but the nut is not pulling the BJ back into the spindle, I can torque it all the way to the spindle..........I am trying to put pressure on the a arm to get it to move, but not budging at all.
I have been smacking the spindle with a BFH, to no avail...........I hate to keep doing that.
I am feeling stuck again.
Thread is fixed, the nut will now thread all the way up the bolt!!!
I am trying to take your advise and re-seat and start over, but the nut is not pulling the BJ back into the spindle, I can torque it all the way to the spindle..........I am trying to put pressure on the a arm to get it to move, but not budging at all.
I have been smacking the spindle with a BFH, to no avail...........I hate to keep doing that.
I am feeling stuck again.
11-01-2008, 05:14 PM
#27
Rennlist Member
Don't use a BFH, too much of that and you will bend the knuckle. Did you torque it to spec? Do you have a way to verify whether it's moving or not, e.g. the step measuring faces on a caliper? If you do, how much does it move as you alternate between having the nut torqued down(then remove the nut to measure) vs. having tension on it with the removal tool?
11-01-2008, 05:33 PM
#28
Racer
Thread Starter
I do not have any way to measure, other then I am eyeballing it as I torque the nut, and she is not moving at all............I am also using a prybar to put downward pressure on the a-arm at the same time I am applying torque, and it is still not moving at all.
Is it possible that something is bent and not allowing it to move?
Is it possible that something is bent and not allowing it to move?
11-01-2008, 05:53 PM
#29
Rennlist Member
It's possible there is some binding due to the ball joint being at one extreme of its travel, but not enough to prevent that tool from pushing it out. Be careful levering on the A-arm as well.
The tool I used on my car had two pivot points, IIRC I had to use the closer one:
Another thought -- can you put a socket or something on there to gain some height, either on the BJ or on the tip of the screw on the BJ tool?
The tool I used on my car had two pivot points, IIRC I had to use the closer one:
Another thought -- can you put a socket or something on there to gain some height, either on the BJ or on the tip of the screw on the BJ tool?
11-01-2008, 05:56 PM
#30
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
The threaded part looks NOT bent in your pics and it also looks like the taper is straight in the knuckle - This is good.
As Dave A said - spray it with PB blaster then let it soak with the ball joint splitter tool in place and tensioned up as much as you dare. Make sure the Nut is on the thread level with the end of the thread to protect the threads from the ball joint splitter tool.
It will probably let go wth a big bang (like the sky has fallen in) in the middle of the night and scare the crap out of you.
If it doesnt leave it all as is above tensioned up , maybe add a bit more tension if you dare, then with an assistant hold your biggest hammer against one side of the knuckle, and using a manageable size hammer strike the opposite side of the knuckle. This may be enough to pop the taper joint free.
Once it is free be aware that the "spring" in the A arm bushes tends to push the taper back together again so you will then ned to pry the a arm up to get the taper right out of the knuckle.
Don't pry on the A arm with the joint stuck together.
As Dave A said - spray it with PB blaster then let it soak with the ball joint splitter tool in place and tensioned up as much as you dare. Make sure the Nut is on the thread level with the end of the thread to protect the threads from the ball joint splitter tool.
It will probably let go wth a big bang (like the sky has fallen in) in the middle of the night and scare the crap out of you.
If it doesnt leave it all as is above tensioned up , maybe add a bit more tension if you dare, then with an assistant hold your biggest hammer against one side of the knuckle, and using a manageable size hammer strike the opposite side of the knuckle. This may be enough to pop the taper joint free.
Once it is free be aware that the "spring" in the A arm bushes tends to push the taper back together again so you will then ned to pry the a arm up to get the taper right out of the knuckle.
Don't pry on the A arm with the joint stuck together.