Clutch adjustment on 2 plate'ers
09-10-2008, 02:36 AM
#61
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Well Mark....here's why the Workshop Manual is correct....and why you are also on the correct track. As the intermediate plates get older, the "H" pieces seem to wear. The amount that they can move gets much bigger. That's why they make new intermediate plates! On a new intermediate plate, there is only about 1.5mm of available space when the adjuster is moved all the way to the rear. Certainly, when the "H" pieces are worn and they allow the intermediate plate to move 4mm, it makes sense that the intermediate plate moves far enough back to interfere with the rear disc.
However, before you get all excited...you are going to find that the "H" pieces are going to move around...unless they are very rusty and tight.
John V's issue was like this. Certainly, he might have been able to cure this issue, with a new intermediate plate, but since he intended to increase the power above the 500 rwhp....the clutch discs would only keep their lining on for a lap or two....so why bother?
I'd guess that you will find out that a new intermediate plate might be in order, when the "H" pieces get this loose.
However, before you get all excited...you are going to find that the "H" pieces are going to move around...unless they are very rusty and tight.
John V's issue was like this. Certainly, he might have been able to cure this issue, with a new intermediate plate, but since he intended to increase the power above the 500 rwhp....the clutch discs would only keep their lining on for a lap or two....so why bother?
I'd guess that you will find out that a new intermediate plate might be in order, when the "H" pieces get this loose.
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greg brown
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Semi-retired, as of Feb 1, 2023.
The days of free technical advice are over.
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greg brown
714 879 9072
GregBBRD@aol.com
Semi-retired, as of Feb 1, 2023.
The days of free technical advice are over.
Free consultations will no longer be available.
Will still be in the shop, isolated and exclusively working on project cars, developmental work and products, engines and transmissions.
Have fun with your 928's people!
09-10-2008, 02:39 AM
#62
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Bill:
You are very wise and have sage advice.
You are very wise and have sage advice.
09-10-2008, 11:31 AM
#63
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
i put a feeler gauge in there, but the adjustment is so crude enough on this scale, and the adjusters rotate on an axis as well, i dont think its that important to be that accurate. BUT, if you use the "other camp's " technique, you will and can be an order of magnatude off! levering the clutch arm back and centering the intermediate plate will make you WAY off. OR, pushing the adusters all the way back will create an error 3 x the manual spec. It might not drag if you are lucky, but now I would be willing to bet there are a lot of misadjusted clutches out there that are just being lived with.
So, just get the gap so that its about as small as you can visually see. Ive checked this out and the intermediate plate will move forward upon clutch engagement and release from the flywheel. THATs all you need! the pressure plate side wont have an issue as the lever arm is moving much farther rearward. remember, the intermdiate plate moves via its own little spring tabs. as Greg had mentioned, all you need is .5 to 1mm and it will release itself.
mk
So, just get the gap so that its about as small as you can visually see. Ive checked this out and the intermediate plate will move forward upon clutch engagement and release from the flywheel. THATs all you need! the pressure plate side wont have an issue as the lever arm is moving much farther rearward. remember, the intermdiate plate moves via its own little spring tabs. as Greg had mentioned, all you need is .5 to 1mm and it will release itself.
mk
09-10-2008, 12:08 PM
#64
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Greg,
Thanks for for the validation. I do have some serious doubts that the "H" pieces wear, in fact,if you look at them they have a mechanical range and will no move in the application UNLESS, their friction lock weakens and they move . The ONLY way they can move is if their own minute spring pressure can over come the "H" adjuster's own friction. As you notice with my old plate, it gets a little rusty as they get older and probably hold better as they get older if i was to guess. Now, before all you disciples get up in arms that im disagreing with you (me being one of them), can we validate that a new intermediate plate only can move 1.5mm? In actuality, they can move much much more! I would say the movement is more like..... and let me go out to the garage and check....stand by...... ok, if you press the adjusters all the way down, they can almost be flush with the adjuster housing. pry them all the way open and it (the adjuster) moves about 4mm. (that would be rear-ward) When they are all the way pressed in, the INT plate can move toward the flyweel about 2mm. this is fixed by the geometry of the "H" window , and i dont see any thing in the way that would limit this or "wear" the movement of the intermediate plate is a little under 2mm, (around 1.8mm) just over your estimation of the movement. (So, we have to clarify, what movement we are talking about and actaully care about) The H adjusters have tabs (the parts that make them look like an "H") they dont wear, as they are only gentle stops as the clutch is depressed stopping the intermediate plate from traveling rear ward upon clutch depression. the intermediate plate moves slowly and has very little force upon these "H" pieces. So, regardless of how far the adjusters where, the intermediate plate can only move a little under 2mm. thats the H window size. max that out by pushing them all the way back by using the "devek" method or just blindly pushing them back, you will have a draggin issue so common with misadjustment)
I believe the "wear" of an intermediate plate is the PLATE itself! if you noticed the one in my demo, it is BADLY grooved, just like a bad flyweel. if you have it turned, you weaken the forces of the pressure plate for clamping and that could be bad.
Also, if those spring tabs loose their spring or break, you need a new plate too.
anyone that moves the pads rearward more than the spec, is endanger of creating a reduced clearance with the pressure plate and disc. as you mention, you only need less than 1mm for the intermedaite plate to release from the flywheel. if you have more than 1mm gap, you risk a major release problem. It really is independent of the H adjusters ability to move a range. I guess more range could adjust to worn clutch discs but thats a different discussion.
one way that they may seem to wear, is that the spring movement is relative to the intermediate plate surface. so, if the H adjuster is all the way rear ward, the spring will only move the plate 1.5mm. if the adjuster is moved toward the flywheel in proper adjustment, that movement can be up to over 2mm rear ward. What this all means is that the H itself limits the movement window, but also shifts the entire range forward or rear-ward! the intermediate plate FLOATs in the "H" adjuster window. that window, doesnt wear or move, UNLESS it is too far rearward, and the pressure plate can move the intermediate plate and "H" adjuster to the flywheel if they are weak enough and the flywheel disc is worn enough for the intermediate plate to bottom out on the adjuster window and move the adjuster forward.
By JV's description as you mention, we certainly could have fixed his clutch drag, based on how he adjusted it. the clutch material strenght is a different discussion and i think Joe and/or Mark have already proved they can shred clutch discs with 500hp.
. There is no reason the clutch adjusters will move , nothing is acting on them in the proper position except the little tiny spring that moves it rearward upon clutch engagement.
If you look at my pictures of a very old and worn intermediate plate, you can see the movement range of the adjuster. I would be willing to bet, that is the range that the new intermediate plate has. If this was the correct model, i would have no issue with using this plate if the friction surface wasnt so badly grooved! by the way, i used my 100,000 Int. plate for my clutch when i built up the dual clutch conversion 7 years ago. now with 100,000miles, 20,000 more miles, 7 years of racing and 105 race days, is working just fine! It just needed a little TLC with the adjusters
mk
Thanks for for the validation. I do have some serious doubts that the "H" pieces wear, in fact,if you look at them they have a mechanical range and will no move in the application UNLESS, their friction lock weakens and they move . The ONLY way they can move is if their own minute spring pressure can over come the "H" adjuster's own friction. As you notice with my old plate, it gets a little rusty as they get older and probably hold better as they get older if i was to guess. Now, before all you disciples get up in arms that im disagreing with you (me being one of them), can we validate that a new intermediate plate only can move 1.5mm? In actuality, they can move much much more! I would say the movement is more like..... and let me go out to the garage and check....stand by...... ok, if you press the adjusters all the way down, they can almost be flush with the adjuster housing. pry them all the way open and it (the adjuster) moves about 4mm. (that would be rear-ward) When they are all the way pressed in, the INT plate can move toward the flyweel about 2mm. this is fixed by the geometry of the "H" window , and i dont see any thing in the way that would limit this or "wear" the movement of the intermediate plate is a little under 2mm, (around 1.8mm) just over your estimation of the movement. (So, we have to clarify, what movement we are talking about and actaully care about) The H adjusters have tabs (the parts that make them look like an "H") they dont wear, as they are only gentle stops as the clutch is depressed stopping the intermediate plate from traveling rear ward upon clutch depression. the intermediate plate moves slowly and has very little force upon these "H" pieces. So, regardless of how far the adjusters where, the intermediate plate can only move a little under 2mm. thats the H window size. max that out by pushing them all the way back by using the "devek" method or just blindly pushing them back, you will have a draggin issue so common with misadjustment)
I believe the "wear" of an intermediate plate is the PLATE itself! if you noticed the one in my demo, it is BADLY grooved, just like a bad flyweel. if you have it turned, you weaken the forces of the pressure plate for clamping and that could be bad.
Also, if those spring tabs loose their spring or break, you need a new plate too.
anyone that moves the pads rearward more than the spec, is endanger of creating a reduced clearance with the pressure plate and disc. as you mention, you only need less than 1mm for the intermedaite plate to release from the flywheel. if you have more than 1mm gap, you risk a major release problem. It really is independent of the H adjusters ability to move a range. I guess more range could adjust to worn clutch discs but thats a different discussion.
one way that they may seem to wear, is that the spring movement is relative to the intermediate plate surface. so, if the H adjuster is all the way rear ward, the spring will only move the plate 1.5mm. if the adjuster is moved toward the flywheel in proper adjustment, that movement can be up to over 2mm rear ward. What this all means is that the H itself limits the movement window, but also shifts the entire range forward or rear-ward! the intermediate plate FLOATs in the "H" adjuster window. that window, doesnt wear or move, UNLESS it is too far rearward, and the pressure plate can move the intermediate plate and "H" adjuster to the flywheel if they are weak enough and the flywheel disc is worn enough for the intermediate plate to bottom out on the adjuster window and move the adjuster forward.
By JV's description as you mention, we certainly could have fixed his clutch drag, based on how he adjusted it. the clutch material strenght is a different discussion and i think Joe and/or Mark have already proved they can shred clutch discs with 500hp.
. There is no reason the clutch adjusters will move , nothing is acting on them in the proper position except the little tiny spring that moves it rearward upon clutch engagement. If you look at my pictures of a very old and worn intermediate plate, you can see the movement range of the adjuster. I would be willing to bet, that is the range that the new intermediate plate has. If this was the correct model, i would have no issue with using this plate if the friction surface wasnt so badly grooved! by the way, i used my 100,000 Int. plate for my clutch when i built up the dual clutch conversion 7 years ago. now with 100,000miles, 20,000 more miles, 7 years of racing and 105 race days, is working just fine! It just needed a little TLC with the adjusters
mk
Well Mark....here's why the Workshop Manual is correct....and why you are also on the correct track. As the intermediate plates get older, the "H" pieces seem to wear. The amount that they can move gets much bigger. That's why they make new intermediate plates! On a new intermediate plate, there is only about 1.5mm of available space when the adjuster is moved all the way to the rear. Certainly, when the "H" pieces are worn and they allow the intermediate plate to move 4mm, it makes sense that the intermediate plate moves far enough back to interfere with the rear disc.
However, before you get all excited...you are going to find that the "H" pieces are going to move around...unless they are very rusty and tight.
John V's issue was like this. Certainly, he might have been able to cure this issue, with a new intermediate plate, but since he intended to increase the power above the 500 rwhp....the clutch discs would only keep their lining on for a lap or two....so why bother?
I'd guess that you will find out that a new intermediate plate might be in order, when the "H" pieces get this loose.
However, before you get all excited...you are going to find that the "H" pieces are going to move around...unless they are very rusty and tight.
John V's issue was like this. Certainly, he might have been able to cure this issue, with a new intermediate plate, but since he intended to increase the power above the 500 rwhp....the clutch discs would only keep their lining on for a lap or two....so why bother?
I'd guess that you will find out that a new intermediate plate might be in order, when the "H" pieces get this loose.
Last edited by mark kibort; 09-10-2008 at 12:33 PM.
09-10-2008, 12:23 PM
#65
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
These two camps are very different. I did the cams via the WSM and have accurately set the inake cams via its lifters. that other camp uses a tool to set the exhaust cams via marks on the heads. (which could be off on my engine)
This story is a little different. we have folks conceptually spacing the intermediate plate via levering the clutch arm back an UNKNOWN distance and setting the H adjusters to center the intermediate plate. This can and will likely put the H adjusteres too far rearward ,as all you need is 1mm clearance from the H on its adjuster. any more than that, and you risk clutch drag. In this case, there is no alternative way. You either set it right or you are guessing by using the devek method or pushing the H adjusters all the way back.
The other camp with the Cams, is more about choosing cam settings via exhaust priority or intake priority in best case. One is dependant on Head dimensions and the other isn't.
mk
This story is a little different. we have folks conceptually spacing the intermediate plate via levering the clutch arm back an UNKNOWN distance and setting the H adjusters to center the intermediate plate. This can and will likely put the H adjusteres too far rearward ,as all you need is 1mm clearance from the H on its adjuster. any more than that, and you risk clutch drag. In this case, there is no alternative way. You either set it right or you are guessing by using the devek method or pushing the H adjusters all the way back.
The other camp with the Cams, is more about choosing cam settings via exhaust priority or intake priority in best case. One is dependant on Head dimensions and the other isn't.
mk
09-10-2008, 12:43 PM
#66
Hmm...I didn't see anywhere in the manuals where it says to cut observation holes in the cover plate to allow for adjustment 
The thing about the intermediate plate is that it has very little leeway in terms of movement..whether you set a gap with the clutch out or clutch in..shouldn't really make a difference... One should endeavor to adjust it enough to allow both forward and rear disk to spin freely when the clutch is pushed in. True if you adjust it too far back it will catch on the pressure plate, but one can measure the travel of the arm and only pull it back far enough to release as the slave would.
Devek's method is useful since it actually makes sense once you do it and you see what is happening. The factory method of course works..but it's description of the method obviously didn't work even for factory trained mechanics..hence the switch to the simple single disk clutch.
I've done the double disk adjustment many many times, however, there was definitely a case where the high strength pressure plate would push the int. plate out of adjustment every time....perhaps the pressure plate was just not the right spec or something but it's a historically documented problem (even with stock clutches) and the reason Porsche eventually gave up on it..
The thing about the intermediate plate is that it has very little leeway in terms of movement..whether you set a gap with the clutch out or clutch in..shouldn't really make a difference... One should endeavor to adjust it enough to allow both forward and rear disk to spin freely when the clutch is pushed in. True if you adjust it too far back it will catch on the pressure plate, but one can measure the travel of the arm and only pull it back far enough to release as the slave would.
Devek's method is useful since it actually makes sense once you do it and you see what is happening. The factory method of course works..but it's description of the method obviously didn't work even for factory trained mechanics..hence the switch to the simple single disk clutch.
I've done the double disk adjustment many many times, however, there was definitely a case where the high strength pressure plate would push the int. plate out of adjustment every time....perhaps the pressure plate was just not the right spec or something but it's a historically documented problem (even with stock clutches) and the reason Porsche eventually gave up on it..
09-10-2008, 12:59 PM
#67
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Tom,
NO, the other way makes no sence as you will be forced to push the adjusters too far back if you are levering the clutch back with the arm. the only way to do it that way, is with Hacker's huge hole and removable bell housing. just spinning the drive shaft to see if it is hanging is not the right way, as it is very difficult to replicate the exact movement that the slave creates.
You only want a slight amout of movement rearward via intermediate plate and this is determined by the H adjuster. Just 1/2mm too far, and you drag on the PRESSURE plate. This is the issue and why that method is dead wrong and near impossible to guarantee the correct adjustement. If you read the manual. IT GUARANTEES proper adjustement if done this way! I cant be responsible for the shop monkeys that dont understand how to do it.
The high strength pressure plate has no bearing or force on adjustment of the intermediate plate. If you read my descriptions, all we are doing here is allowing the intermediate plate to move rear ward upon cluch engagement. That's it. Why make it harder than it needs to be. In fact, if you try and get an "even" distance, how do you know that is what you want? By design, the pressure plate side might have more travel than the flywheel side. if so, if the H adjuster is too far rearward, you might inhibit travel to the flwheel and reduce clamping force on that side. The H adjuster range is only 1.5mm or so, while the adjusters can move 4mm! lots of margin for operator error.
Use the WSM, its the right way to do it.
Getting back to the high strenght pressure plate. by your wildest imagination, how could it change the adjustement setting? the adjusters dont care how hard the clamping force is. if you have the .5 to 1mm gap on the H adjusters, as the extra strong pressure plate is retracted, the little tiny springs release the intermediate plate from the flywheel It has no idea how hard it was being pressed, nor, how far the pressure plate is pulled back. pull it back to Ohio, and it only moves a paltry, .5-1mm rear ward.
mk
NO, the other way makes no sence as you will be forced to push the adjusters too far back if you are levering the clutch back with the arm. the only way to do it that way, is with Hacker's huge hole and removable bell housing. just spinning the drive shaft to see if it is hanging is not the right way, as it is very difficult to replicate the exact movement that the slave creates.
You only want a slight amout of movement rearward via intermediate plate and this is determined by the H adjuster. Just 1/2mm too far, and you drag on the PRESSURE plate. This is the issue and why that method is dead wrong and near impossible to guarantee the correct adjustement. If you read the manual. IT GUARANTEES proper adjustement if done this way! I cant be responsible for the shop monkeys that dont understand how to do it.
The high strength pressure plate has no bearing or force on adjustment of the intermediate plate. If you read my descriptions, all we are doing here is allowing the intermediate plate to move rear ward upon cluch engagement. That's it. Why make it harder than it needs to be. In fact, if you try and get an "even" distance, how do you know that is what you want? By design, the pressure plate side might have more travel than the flywheel side. if so, if the H adjuster is too far rearward, you might inhibit travel to the flwheel and reduce clamping force on that side. The H adjuster range is only 1.5mm or so, while the adjusters can move 4mm! lots of margin for operator error.
Use the WSM, its the right way to do it.
Getting back to the high strenght pressure plate. by your wildest imagination, how could it change the adjustement setting? the adjusters dont care how hard the clamping force is. if you have the .5 to 1mm gap on the H adjusters, as the extra strong pressure plate is retracted, the little tiny springs release the intermediate plate from the flywheel It has no idea how hard it was being pressed, nor, how far the pressure plate is pulled back. pull it back to Ohio, and it only moves a paltry, .5-1mm rear ward.
mk
Hmm...I didn't see anywhere in the manuals where it says to cut observation holes in the cover plate to allow for adjustment
The thing about the intermediate plate is that it has very little leeway in terms of movement..whether you set a gap with the clutch out or clutch in..shouldn't really make a difference... One should endeavor to adjust it enough to allow both forward and rear disk to spin freely when the clutch is pushed in. True if you adjust it too far back it will catch on the pressure plate, but one can measure the travel of the arm and only pull it back far enough to release as the slave would.
Devek's method is useful since it actually makes sense once you do it and you see what is happening. The factory method of course works..but it's description of the method obviously didn't work even for factory trained mechanics..hence the switch to the simple single disk clutch.
I've done the double disk adjustment many many times, however, there was definitely a case where the high strength pressure plate would push the int. plate out of adjustment every time....perhaps the pressure plate was just not the right spec or something but it's a historically documented problem (even with stock clutches) and the reason Porsche eventually gave up on it..
The thing about the intermediate plate is that it has very little leeway in terms of movement..whether you set a gap with the clutch out or clutch in..shouldn't really make a difference... One should endeavor to adjust it enough to allow both forward and rear disk to spin freely when the clutch is pushed in. True if you adjust it too far back it will catch on the pressure plate, but one can measure the travel of the arm and only pull it back far enough to release as the slave would.
Devek's method is useful since it actually makes sense once you do it and you see what is happening. The factory method of course works..but it's description of the method obviously didn't work even for factory trained mechanics..hence the switch to the simple single disk clutch.
I've done the double disk adjustment many many times, however, there was definitely a case where the high strength pressure plate would push the int. plate out of adjustment every time....perhaps the pressure plate was just not the right spec or something but it's a historically documented problem (even with stock clutches) and the reason Porsche eventually gave up on it..
Last edited by mark kibort; 09-10-2008 at 01:18 PM.
09-10-2008, 01:08 PM
#68
Administrator - "Tyson"
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You are wrong and this statement proves it:
Really? Over the course of a week? Really? Have you reached that level of arrogance already?
On top of that calling JV close minded? That takes *****.
Actually there are three camps:
1. Those who have been working on these cars for over two decades and know what they are talking about.
2. Noobs like me who are opened minded, listen to those from camp #1 and actually listen to them.
3. You
See the difference?
There is actually a 2.5 camp which contains people like Bill Ball and Porken, but I wanted to keep this simple.
On top of that calling JV close minded? That takes *****.
Actually there are three camps:
1. Those who have been working on these cars for over two decades and know what they are talking about.
2. Noobs like me who are opened minded, listen to those from camp #1 and actually listen to them.
3. You
See the difference?
There is actually a 2.5 camp which contains people like Bill Ball and Porken, but I wanted to keep this simple.
09-10-2008, 01:09 PM
#69
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Here is a set of pics that show the adjuster from the flywheel side.
as you can see, the adjuster can move near 4.5mm! operator error can really screw up an adjustement with this range.
next is a picture of the range of intermediate plate movement in the window. its under 2mm. (1.7mm or so)
mk
as you can see, the adjuster can move near 4.5mm! operator error can really screw up an adjustement with this range.
next is a picture of the range of intermediate plate movement in the window. its under 2mm. (1.7mm or so)
mk
09-10-2008, 01:15 PM
#70
Mark..NO>>>>>> 
If you adjust the H's to just release enough off the front disk, then that is all you need to do..release..adjust, spin adjust, spin , ...adjust and if the front disk will release from the flywheel and the int. plate..they you are good. Both methods are similar..except it doesn't reference a solid number (eg 1.5 mm or whatever)..but the goal is to get it to release off the front...
no you do not need to worry about the rear plate because if the intermediate plate is set up properly..as long as you get the front disk to release enough..you are good....
I've never done the push it way back and let it adjust itself..but others have and it has worked.
Regarding the high pressure pressure plate..absolutely can make a diff...if you dump the clutch ..that pressure plate will move forward much faster than the factory one...it hits the clutch disk..imparting momentum to it..forward..and the whole thing is now accelerating forward into the int.plate..which then starts moving forward ...if enough momentum is imparted to the int. plate it will push forward and go beyond it's range of motion. If the H tabs are not tight enough it will allow the whole thing to shift forward. Seen it many times...everything properly adjusted..and when the clutch starts dragging again..pulled it apart..and the int. plate was too far forward.. every time....
If you adjust the H's to just release enough off the front disk, then that is all you need to do..release..adjust, spin adjust, spin , ...adjust and if the front disk will release from the flywheel and the int. plate..they you are good. Both methods are similar..except it doesn't reference a solid number (eg 1.5 mm or whatever)..but the goal is to get it to release off the front...no you do not need to worry about the rear plate because if the intermediate plate is set up properly..as long as you get the front disk to release enough..you are good....
I've never done the push it way back and let it adjust itself..but others have and it has worked.
Regarding the high pressure pressure plate..absolutely can make a diff...if you dump the clutch ..that pressure plate will move forward much faster than the factory one...it hits the clutch disk..imparting momentum to it..forward..and the whole thing is now accelerating forward into the int.plate..which then starts moving forward ...if enough momentum is imparted to the int. plate it will push forward and go beyond it's range of motion. If the H tabs are not tight enough it will allow the whole thing to shift forward. Seen it many times...everything properly adjusted..and when the clutch starts dragging again..pulled it apart..and the int. plate was too far forward.. every time....
09-10-2008, 01:21 PM
#71
And another note...the problem with a number (e.g 1.5mm ) is that the factory mech. set it at 1.5 and probably ignored the possibility of wear on the shaft that forced the front disk to ride in a different spot than it should..so it always dragged..the other method allow for the front disk to be "released" no matter where it was "set". Of course it has its limitations that enough wear on the shaft and the disk will possibly be forced far enough back that setting it to release will cause issues with the back disk being released...
Pain the buttocks overall...now that better clutch materials are available for the single disks and better pressure plates...the advantage of the double disk is only marginal and theoretical....
I look forward to see how your new high strength pressure plate fares over time...
Pain the buttocks overall...now that better clutch materials are available for the single disks and better pressure plates...the advantage of the double disk is only marginal and theoretical....
I look forward to see how your new high strength pressure plate fares over time...
09-10-2008, 01:23 PM
#72
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
You have ***** challenging me on this one with only saying "you are wrong".
tell me what parts wear. sure, there can be minute wear on the H pads, or the friction of the adjusters, but where is the wear. tone it down a bit an communicate logicaly with me. You are getting too emotional.
keep in mind, i think i have verified a way to fix many folks issues with the adjustment, especailly since there is a lot of mis information floating around.
Didnt you read Gregs post validating where im going with this?
Yeah, JV is closed minded as he said he adjusted it via the devek way, had issues and spent a boat load of money changing out his clutch. I showed him why that way could have caused the issue, as it has caused with many other folks adjustements.
It does take ***** to stand up to a group of Witch hunters.
mk
tell me what parts wear. sure, there can be minute wear on the H pads, or the friction of the adjusters, but where is the wear. tone it down a bit an communicate logicaly with me. You are getting too emotional.
keep in mind, i think i have verified a way to fix many folks issues with the adjustment, especailly since there is a lot of mis information floating around.
Didnt you read Gregs post validating where im going with this?
Yeah, JV is closed minded as he said he adjusted it via the devek way, had issues and spent a boat load of money changing out his clutch. I showed him why that way could have caused the issue, as it has caused with many other folks adjustements.
It does take ***** to stand up to a group of Witch hunters.
mk
You are wrong and this statement proves it:
Really? Over the course of a week? Really? Have you reached that level of arrogance already?
On top of that calling JV close minded? That takes *****.
Actually there are three camps:
1. Those who have been working on these cars for over two decades and know what they are talking about.
2. Noobs like me who are opened minded, listen to those from camp #1 and actually listen to them.
3. You
See the difference?
There is actually a 2.5 camp which contains people like Bill Ball and Porken, but I wanted to keep this simple.
Really? Over the course of a week? Really? Have you reached that level of arrogance already?
On top of that calling JV close minded? That takes *****.
Actually there are three camps:
1. Those who have been working on these cars for over two decades and know what they are talking about.
2. Noobs like me who are opened minded, listen to those from camp #1 and actually listen to them.
3. You
See the difference?
There is actually a 2.5 camp which contains people like Bill Ball and Porken, but I wanted to keep this simple.
09-10-2008, 01:31 PM
#73
Nordschleife Master
Actually there are three camps:
1. Those who have been working on these cars for over two decades and know what they are talking about.
2. Noobs like me who are opened minded, listen to those from camp #1 and actually listen to them.
3. You
See the difference?
There is actually a 2.5 camp which contains people like Bill Ball and Porken, but I wanted to keep this simple.
1. Those who have been working on these cars for over two decades and know what they are talking about.
2. Noobs like me who are opened minded, listen to those from camp #1 and actually listen to them.
3. You
See the difference?
There is actually a 2.5 camp which contains people like Bill Ball and Porken, but I wanted to keep this simple.
on a more serious note, I have the same experiance as Tom, and adjusting the H pieces so that the pressure plate is unable to move them is what I have found to work best and I have zero drag on my clutch.
IMO I dont think that Mark fully understands the clutch 100% yet. He may think he does, but I think he is missing a few aspects of it.
09-10-2008, 01:35 PM
#74
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
If you are careful, you will end up with the same result, i agree, but to check it, i would see if there is a near 1mm gap . any more and you run the risk of drag, thats all im saying! and the gap is really under 1mm.
now as far as the dumping clutch thing? thats a HUGE stretch. Here is why.
rember there is a "gearing" that takes place with the levering of the clutch pedal and mechanism. I push the clutch in as fast as i can, and the intermediate plate moves .5mm rearward for a full clutch depression. dump the clutch as fast as you can. the intermediate plate is pushed on by the pressure plate at near the same speed and distance. .5mm of movement and you can visually see it move. its not even a "snap" like the pedal could make if you just let it go! The next point is a big one. no matter how fast or strong the presure plate is, the intermediate plate is floating in its own spring. it bottoms out at the flywheel and disc. this happens WAY before the the interemediate plate could bottom out into the "H" adjuster. if it is adjusted correctly, .75mm on the "H" arms, on the bottom, there will be near 1mm of gap. ths means the interemdiate plate HITS the disc and flywheel BEFORE it hits the adjuster stops with near 1mm to spare! as the disc wears, this could be an issue. I also supect that there could be an issue with flywheel clamping force, if you are misadjusted and the pressure plate touches the bottomed out H stops . This could limit clamping force on the flywheel and disc. I do know it takes about 150lbs of force to move the adjusters . all 3 might be in the range of near 4-500lbs. This would ONLY be an issue , IF the disc was worn so that the interemdiate plate had to move farther than normal.
mk
now as far as the dumping clutch thing? thats a HUGE stretch. Here is why.
rember there is a "gearing" that takes place with the levering of the clutch pedal and mechanism. I push the clutch in as fast as i can, and the intermediate plate moves .5mm rearward for a full clutch depression. dump the clutch as fast as you can. the intermediate plate is pushed on by the pressure plate at near the same speed and distance. .5mm of movement and you can visually see it move. its not even a "snap" like the pedal could make if you just let it go! The next point is a big one. no matter how fast or strong the presure plate is, the intermediate plate is floating in its own spring. it bottoms out at the flywheel and disc. this happens WAY before the the interemediate plate could bottom out into the "H" adjuster. if it is adjusted correctly, .75mm on the "H" arms, on the bottom, there will be near 1mm of gap. ths means the interemdiate plate HITS the disc and flywheel BEFORE it hits the adjuster stops with near 1mm to spare! as the disc wears, this could be an issue. I also supect that there could be an issue with flywheel clamping force, if you are misadjusted and the pressure plate touches the bottomed out H stops . This could limit clamping force on the flywheel and disc. I do know it takes about 150lbs of force to move the adjusters . all 3 might be in the range of near 4-500lbs. This would ONLY be an issue , IF the disc was worn so that the interemdiate plate had to move farther than normal.
mk
Mark..NO>>>>>> If you adjust the H's to just release enough off the front disk, then that is all you need to do..release..adjust, spin adjust, spin , ...adjust and if the front disk will release from the flywheel and the int. plate..they you are good. Both methods are similar..except it doesn't reference a solid number (eg 1.5 mm or whatever)..but the goal is to get it to release off the front...
no you do not need to worry about the rear plate because if the intermediate plate is set up properly..as long as you get the front disk to release enough..you are good....
I've never done the push it way back and let it adjust itself..but others have and it has worked.
Regarding the high pressure pressure plate..absolutely can make a diff...if you dump the clutch ..that pressure plate will move forward much faster than the factory one...it hits the clutch disk..imparting momentum to it..forward..and the whole thing is now accelerating forward into the int.plate..which then starts moving forward ...if enough momentum is imparted to the int. plate it will push forward and go beyond it's range of motion. If the H tabs are not tight enough it will allow the whole thing to shift forward. Seen it many times...everything properly adjusted..and when the clutch starts dragging again..pulled it apart..and the int. plate was too far forward.. every time....
If you adjust the H's to just release enough off the front disk, then that is all you need to do..release..adjust, spin adjust, spin , ...adjust and if the front disk will release from the flywheel and the int. plate..they you are good. Both methods are similar..except it doesn't reference a solid number (eg 1.5 mm or whatever)..but the goal is to get it to release off the front...no you do not need to worry about the rear plate because if the intermediate plate is set up properly..as long as you get the front disk to release enough..you are good....
I've never done the push it way back and let it adjust itself..but others have and it has worked.
Regarding the high pressure pressure plate..absolutely can make a diff...if you dump the clutch ..that pressure plate will move forward much faster than the factory one...it hits the clutch disk..imparting momentum to it..forward..and the whole thing is now accelerating forward into the int.plate..which then starts moving forward ...if enough momentum is imparted to the int. plate it will push forward and go beyond it's range of motion. If the H tabs are not tight enough it will allow the whole thing to shift forward. Seen it many times...everything properly adjusted..and when the clutch starts dragging again..pulled it apart..and the int. plate was too far forward.. every time....
Last edited by mark kibort; 09-10-2008 at 02:38 PM.
09-10-2008, 01:38 PM
#75
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It is one thing to look at what is happening when the engine is turned off and you cycle the clutch quite another when you shift at 6,000 RPM ....Perhaps the high clamping forces of a heavy duty pressure plate are compressing the springs inside disc # 1 and thereby adjusting the adjusters too far forward as it is SUPPOSED to adjust for a worn thinner disc one. Raises the point of WHY is there adjustment at all. The clutch is designed to move the adjusters toward the flywheel but there is no way for it to self adjust away from the flywheel. Lever them all the way back and they SHOULD self adjust forward unless they are too corroded to move easily or so loose and worn that they will not hold adjustment at all .