BC

Everyone starts polite mark. Its just that some have more patience with you than others. But everything is finite.

mark kibort

Did you read my response? I think many of us agreed that the bolt replacement was a good idea. I have been talking more about the forces on the H adjusters from both sides and how it should be adjusted to give it the best shot of working. So, you are not wasting you breath. the link was good to show a visual of how you modified the Int plate. If mine ever goes bad in this fashion, i would probaby do this or just a quick spot weld on the top of the H adjuster.

as far as listening, maybe you should do some of the same. If you recall, all the advice was to push the H adjusters "all the way rear-ward". Do your recall what that caused?? You got it, clutch drag on the pressue plate and disc.
I also went on to explain that the intermediate plate has NO other forces acting on it than a finger force spring of the flat springs. And then, pages of further explanation of why the factory setting is best.

So, before you chime in, you might try and taking some of your own advice.

mk

mark kibort

As usual, an extrodinary contribution to the discussion.

mk

OBehave

UPDATE:
Mark,I drove the car all weekend and put 130 miles on it without any issues.I don't plan on taking it apart unless it starts acting up again in which case I'll check the gap again.I am still not sure which gap is for the 84s but the .7 mm is where its at now.Ed.

mark kibort

Thats great news. Glad to hear it worked out.

I also put about 100miles (hard miles ) on mine and it has never shifted better. I especially like when im putting it in the garage, if i have to jockey back and forth from 1st to reverse, it goes in effortlessly. I hear scot was buzzing around as well with no issues as well.

Mk

OBehave

Hey Mark,
I know that a worn or grooved short shaft would cause clutch dragging,but do you think it is possible that it could some how causr the "H" adjusters to move back opening that .7mm gap over time to a 1.5-2mm gap? After all this time the clutch is starting to drag again intermittantly after approx. 2 weeks of flawless performance.I haven't pulled down the cluch cover yet to check but I will let you know.Any thoughts are always appreciated.Thanks. Ed

mark kibort

As Greg talked about,he has seen those adjusters become very loose. I have a hard time imagining it, as they seem to get rusty and dirty over time, but I had a theory, if they were adjusted originally the "push them all the way back " technique. that way the pressure plate is always moving them a little to make contact with the flywheel and disc

Mine is working great as well and hasnt changed a bit. Im driving it hard as well!

I would look at the adjusters and see if they changed. remember, the only thing acting on the adjusters to move them open (to open the gap) is the little weak flat springs (finger pressure force) that acts on the plate to pull it away from the flywheel and disc. If they are really loose, I would adjust them again, drill a small hole like I showed on a picture here, and put a roll pin through it. done. it will probably give you 10 years of reliable service! I probably might even do something even quicker. a small spot weld on all 3 of the H adjusters.
The point is, if the plate is bad, you need a new one anyway, so the risk is nothing!

mk

OBehave

So would that be a NO to my question in previous post???

mark kibort

I dont see how a grooved or worn shaft might cause it to put pressure on the floating intermediate plate, as NOTHING is acting on it, except the spring pressure of the flat springs when the clutch is pushed in. The only other forces on them might be as the clutch is let out, if you have bad chatter, it might cause those flat springs to flex and move around, thus possibly pushing on the H adjusters. thats a guess. However, if the shaft is grooved or worn, it would inhibit the disc from pulling away from the flywheel or pressure plate fully. thats all that it is supposed to do. just be a path for the discs to retract a fraction of a mm on the flywheel side and probably more on the pressure plate side, when the clutch is pushed in. If they are sticking, they could drag and cause the same effect as a misadjusted intermediate plate.

anyway, if they are moving, I would drill a small 1/8 hole as i did in the picture above after you set the H adjuster at .7mm. push a 1/8" roll pin through it and call it a day. there is no real reason for the intermediate plate to ever need to move forward, unless you have substantial front disc wear. after that, you could put in a new disc and be in good shape again. (as long as your discs now are in decent shape)

Let us know what you find when you go back in there. I would be curious to see how much they moved and how easy they are to move with a screwdriver.

Mine is still working fine,with no issues and im driving it about every other day.

mk

hacker-pschorr

BULL****!!!
IN POST #2 I TOLD YOU THAT METHOD HAS NEVER WORKED FOR ME AND OTHER DOUBLE DISC CLUTH OWNERS!!!!

We need to start using the bullhorn from my avatar to talk to you.

mark kibort

Watch it tough guy! you are not paying attention! You said this, but no one else did.

DEVEK, Anderson, Brown, even JV and his higher force pressure plate, and a few others privately, had told me to "push the H adjusters all the way back". (EDIT: or they used the method of puting the intermediate plate in the center which has its faults also as I noted many pages earlier. I also should note that Greg brown had said that my idea might work and it wouldnt hurt to push the adjusters forward a bit to see what happens. I did this and it fixed the issue based on the thought that it was the pressure plate and disc all along that was dragging , and i probably dragging on many others, by having too large of a gap at the H aduster or by pushing the adjusters all the way back)

Thats when I told JV that if he had tried the sub 1mm adjusting technique, it might have workded for him. So, I would think that it (push it all the way back technique) has no chance of working, based on what i have found and posted here. You could get lucky and have it work, but only if you werent able to push them "all the way back". there is a point where you might think it is pushed all the way back, but it still can move more. I found that out testing on my intermediate plate dummy demo.

anyway, the point is, the factory manual has it right. I also think that the sub 1mm spec should be used based on what ive seen through the "window".

hacker-pschorr

We need to invent a pot / kettle smiley

mark kibort

we need a pot /kettle and **** stirrer smiley for you!

mk

OBehave

Mark,
I couldn't take it anymore so I took out the clutch,the gap on the "H" adjusters was 1.2mm.The flywheel disc rivets measure .8mm and the PP side disc rivets measure 1mm.So as per manual spec of .3mm is replacement time these discs are okThe pressure plate appears to be ok other than some wear marks on the inside spring tips where the release bearing snap ring mounts.The intermediate plate also appears to be in good condition and when measuring the distance of the adjusters as per manual on the bench with hand pressure pushing down I get 1.25mm.So the adjusters are not wornThe amount of pressure I need to move the "H" adjusters by hand is MUCH more than I need to deflect the flat springs on the plate so I really don't think that they are the issue.The short shaft splines are shiny but show no signs of grooving.The pilot bearing spins freely and the short shaft fits nicely with very little play. The release bearing is hard to spin with grabbing chunky spots and has no grease inside the collar.I say it's toast. The center shaft the bearing rides on has dried grease on it and has a definite groove in it on only half of it.It is also toast.The fork appears to be good and the ball cup was brand new 2 weeks before I took it apart.
The only other problems I encountered on the way was the rear bolt on the front shaft coupler was not tight.It didn,t take any effort to break it loose as the front bolt did,and the two-6mm locating pins were not pushed int the flywheel.I don't have a camera handy but will hopefully get one soon.
What do ya think???

mark kibort

So, I hope im not re-stating the obvious, but you measured the gap in the H adjusters before you took out the clutch and it was 1.2mm. That obviously is too large, and you can see is almost the max you found of the movement of the H adjusters in the window, when you pressed on the plate and moved them in the intermediate plate movement window.

the question is, how much force did it take to move the H adjusters. obviously, the flat springs are only finger pressure force, but the H adjusters will move if you lean on the intermediate plate on the workbench. if there is not enough friction, they could move due to vibration, heating, etc.

If you closed that gap to under 1mm and now it is 1.2mm, you were a little too close on the gap, and maybe it should be set up to .7mm (when installed on the car)

the fact that you saw the locator pins not in their holes throws out another curve ball. was the presure plate bolted down, but had a space between flywheel and the locator pins? If so, that could be an alignment issue as well.

mk