THE OFFICIAL: E85 Fuel Conversion Thread
03-19-2008, 01:18 PM
#16
Teflon lines are about 6 bucks a foot. The straight part under the car and into the engine bay can be done with cheaper hard lines. I bough three 6 footers for 180 bucks total. They are hard to bend, and a bit thick, but SS.
03-19-2008, 01:28 PM
#17
Instructor
Brendan,
When you say that you think that normal injectors are fine for non-boosted applications, are you saying that a stock flow injector should flow enough to support E85 (with a re-mapped fuel program), or would a ~30% over stock flow injector be the way to go for a "from scratch" build?
This is all great information, thanks!
When you say that you think that normal injectors are fine for non-boosted applications, are you saying that a stock flow injector should flow enough to support E85 (with a re-mapped fuel program), or would a ~30% over stock flow injector be the way to go for a "from scratch" build?
This is all great information, thanks!
03-19-2008, 01:40 PM
#18
Official Bay Area Patriot
Fuse 24 Assassin
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Fuse 24 Assassin
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What is necessary to get a 928 to run on E85? Can it run this type of fuel with stock Bosch LH, or will the computer need to be reprogrammed?
03-19-2008, 01:52 PM
#19
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Hi, this should be an interesting thread, particularly if we can (as Ryan outlined) avoid any political/enviromental/forced induction 'views' and focus soley on the 'facts' (read, parts/tuning... etc...) required to effectivly run a 928 on E85.
Ok then.... What are we going to need...?
- First and foremost (IMO) One of John Speake's Shark tuners....
- Fuel tank that is capable of containing Ethanol... I doubt the original will be upto the task, but could be worth finding out exactly what the material properties of that tank is....
- Flexi fuel lines, Teflon lined, or Nitrile composition should work fine.
- External fuel pump, readily available for alcohol... (Weldon, Aeromotive etc...) Should also have a higher flow capacity than stock, at least 25%.
- Fuel filter.
- Hardlines to engine, preferably Stainless, However steel will work and I believe stock lines are steel?? (Please correct if wrong)
- Fuel pressure dampers. Marren Fuel injection makes one that is alcohol compatable.
- Fuel pressure reg. again freely available (Weldon, Aeromotive etc...)
- Compatable injectors, capable of flowing at least 25% more than what a gasoline equivalent flows.
- Stock fuel rail should be fine, I guess it depends on what engine output you are aiming for... (I see most Gasoline High HP motors here are still running stock, so presumably it can flow a considerable amount of fuel...)
Heads I am unsure of... have to do some more research... but I beleive you will be fine with stock valves and seats.
And of course to take true advantage of E85 propoerties you need an increase in compression ratio and/or forced induction.
(Is it possible or has anyone 'decked' a 928 head to increase compression??)
Personally I believe that the fuel tank and evaporative controls will be the most challenging issue to face...
Opinions...??
Ok then.... What are we going to need...?
- First and foremost (IMO) One of John Speake's Shark tuners....
- Fuel tank that is capable of containing Ethanol... I doubt the original will be upto the task, but could be worth finding out exactly what the material properties of that tank is....
- Flexi fuel lines, Teflon lined, or Nitrile composition should work fine.
- External fuel pump, readily available for alcohol... (Weldon, Aeromotive etc...) Should also have a higher flow capacity than stock, at least 25%.
- Fuel filter.
- Hardlines to engine, preferably Stainless, However steel will work and I believe stock lines are steel?? (Please correct if wrong)
- Fuel pressure dampers. Marren Fuel injection makes one that is alcohol compatable.
- Fuel pressure reg. again freely available (Weldon, Aeromotive etc...)
- Compatable injectors, capable of flowing at least 25% more than what a gasoline equivalent flows.
- Stock fuel rail should be fine, I guess it depends on what engine output you are aiming for... (I see most Gasoline High HP motors here are still running stock, so presumably it can flow a considerable amount of fuel...)
Heads I am unsure of... have to do some more research... but I beleive you will be fine with stock valves and seats.
And of course to take true advantage of E85 propoerties you need an increase in compression ratio and/or forced induction.
(Is it possible or has anyone 'decked' a 928 head to increase compression??)
Personally I believe that the fuel tank and evaporative controls will be the most challenging issue to face...
Opinions...??
Last edited by FUSE69; 03-19-2008 at 02:09 PM. Reason: forgot filter... probably other stuff too :-)
03-19-2008, 02:10 PM
#20
Rennlist Member
Great information, Brendan ! I know your car is getting a custom fuel tank, but didn't see if you were saying a stock 928 tank would be OK for use with E85 ?
It should be possible to make a 928 "dual fuel" on a >87 car by using a remapped cat map for 93 and using the non-cat map (remapped of course) for E85. Maps could be easily changed by a switch on the cdoing plug.
How does E85 and cats co-exist, Brendan ? Any issues ?
It should be possible to make a 928 "dual fuel" on a >87 car by using a remapped cat map for 93 and using the non-cat map (remapped of course) for E85. Maps could be easily changed by a switch on the cdoing plug.
How does E85 and cats co-exist, Brendan ? Any issues ?
03-19-2008, 02:27 PM
#22
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John, that could be a great function, for a variety of uses....
As has been mentioned E85 is not great for cold starts and there is a seasonal differential of the % of Ethanol E85 contains.... therefore I see tuning could be a little difficult.... this could allow for a winter & summer tune....?
Or as you say for E85 to Gasoline, particularly usefull for those who live in areas where E85 is not so freely available... a good 'limp home' function....
Is it possible for a fuel pump controller to be hooked up somehow within the Shark tuner programing??
ie a signal to lower pump voltage => fuel pressure
As has been mentioned E85 is not great for cold starts and there is a seasonal differential of the % of Ethanol E85 contains.... therefore I see tuning could be a little difficult.... this could allow for a winter & summer tune....?
Or as you say for E85 to Gasoline, particularly usefull for those who live in areas where E85 is not so freely available... a good 'limp home' function....
Is it possible for a fuel pump controller to be hooked up somehow within the Shark tuner programing??
ie a signal to lower pump voltage => fuel pressure
03-19-2008, 02:30 PM
#23
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
I PM'ed John about this but maybe his answer would be better served here as there seems to be allot of interest in this.
If i go with a turbo i would want to vary the boost and run at a lower level most of the time. When i want more boost i would dial it up but need to have the fuel maps adjusted on the fly as well. I was thinking of a 400 RWHP mode and a maximum mode, lets just say 520-550 RWHP, and maybe one setting in between. I would think fuel and ignition maps would need to be adjusted for both if not a 3rd program. (This idea of variable boost on the fly was originally thought of for gasoline, although with E85 i could probably run much more boost so more maps maybe necessary)
Can this all be done on the factory injection system by use of multiple chips but having something of a switching box to change which chip is wired at anyone time without the need to physically open the box and switch chips everytime?
If i go with a turbo i would want to vary the boost and run at a lower level most of the time. When i want more boost i would dial it up but need to have the fuel maps adjusted on the fly as well. I was thinking of a 400 RWHP mode and a maximum mode, lets just say 520-550 RWHP, and maybe one setting in between. I would think fuel and ignition maps would need to be adjusted for both if not a 3rd program. (This idea of variable boost on the fly was originally thought of for gasoline, although with E85 i could probably run much more boost so more maps maybe necessary)
Can this all be done on the factory injection system by use of multiple chips but having something of a switching box to change which chip is wired at anyone time without the need to physically open the box and switch chips everytime?
03-19-2008, 02:37 PM
#24
Drifting
I have some experience with this. The most applicable would probably be one of my friends that is a powertrain engineer at Ford. He converted his mid 80s turbo Saab to run on E85. And by convert I mean he upped the size of his injectors by 30%, added a couple degrees MORE of timing, and raised the boost another 8 lbs. That's it. That car is of the same vintage as ours and would contain very similar components. In running it this way for the last three years the only part that has failed is the fuel pump. He put another stock one in and has been fine since.
Another friend of mine runs a tuning shop in Detroit that does a lot of Toyota turbo 4 stuff with stand alone controllers. New car stock fuel system components work just fine with E85. You just need bigger injectors and bigger fuel pumps. He loves working with it. Knock is never and issue and it doesn't stink up the shop when they are dynoing cars. The last Celica GT-S he tuned put down 550whp out of 1.8liters. It's a reliable daily driven car. That wouldn't be possible with pump gas and you couldn't afford to do it on race gas on a daily basis.
I've thought long and hard about converting my Audi 200 over to E85. I would guess it would get me another 40 at the wheels. The only reason I haven't is that I drive the car a lot and can't get E85 in a lot of the places I travel.
Basically it's the ultimate boosted fuel.
Another friend of mine runs a tuning shop in Detroit that does a lot of Toyota turbo 4 stuff with stand alone controllers. New car stock fuel system components work just fine with E85. You just need bigger injectors and bigger fuel pumps. He loves working with it. Knock is never and issue and it doesn't stink up the shop when they are dynoing cars. The last Celica GT-S he tuned put down 550whp out of 1.8liters. It's a reliable daily driven car. That wouldn't be possible with pump gas and you couldn't afford to do it on race gas on a daily basis.
I've thought long and hard about converting my Audi 200 over to E85. I would guess it would get me another 40 at the wheels. The only reason I haven't is that I drive the car a lot and can't get E85 in a lot of the places I travel.
Basically it's the ultimate boosted fuel.
03-19-2008, 02:55 PM
#27
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He converted his mid 80s turbo Saab to run on E85. And by convert I mean he upped the size of his injectors by 30%, added a couple degrees MORE of timing, and raised the boost another 8 lbs. That's it. That car is of the same vintage as ours and would contain very similar components. In running it this way for the last three years the only part that has failed is the fuel pump. He put another stock one in and has been fine since.
3yrs on a stock pump is pretty good! Current model SAAB BioPower test vehicles DID NOT last that long.....
03-19-2008, 03:02 PM
#28
Brendan,
When you say that you think that normal injectors are fine for non-boosted applications, are you saying that a stock flow injector should flow enough to support E85 (with a re-mapped fuel program), or would a ~30% over stock flow injector be the way to go for a "from scratch" build?
This is all great information, thanks!
When you say that you think that normal injectors are fine for non-boosted applications, are you saying that a stock flow injector should flow enough to support E85 (with a re-mapped fuel program), or would a ~30% over stock flow injector be the way to go for a "from scratch" build?
This is all great information, thanks!
But from a scratch buildup, I would think bigger injectors and a sharktune would be a good idea.
03-19-2008, 04:00 PM
#29
Great information, Brendan ! I know your car is getting a custom fuel tank, but didn't see if you were saying a stock 928 tank would be OK for use with E85 ?
It should be possible to make a 928 "dual fuel" on a >87 car by using a remapped cat map for 93 and using the non-cat map (remapped of course) for E85. Maps could be easily changed by a switch on the cdoing plug.
How does E85 and cats co-exist, Brendan ? Any issues ?
It should be possible to make a 928 "dual fuel" on a >87 car by using a remapped cat map for 93 and using the non-cat map (remapped of course) for E85. Maps could be easily changed by a switch on the cdoing plug.
How does E85 and cats co-exist, Brendan ? Any issues ?
Ethanol burns cleaner - so no cat issues. Except for if the cat drinks it straight 200 proof - then the cat will be cooked.
Tank is very iffy. It may work innitially, but I would not be suprised if it started degrading or disolving. I wasn't personally taking any chances.
03-19-2008, 04:02 PM
#30
John, that could be a great function, for a variety of uses....
As has been mentioned E85 is not great for cold starts and there is a seasonal differential of the % of Ethanol E85 contains.... therefore I see tuning could be a little difficult.... this could allow for a winter & summer tune....?
Or as you say for E85 to Gasoline, particularly usefull for those who live in areas where E85 is not so freely available... a good 'limp home' function....
Is it possible for a fuel pump controller to be hooked up somehow within the Shark tuner programing??
ie a signal to lower pump voltage => fuel pressure
As has been mentioned E85 is not great for cold starts and there is a seasonal differential of the % of Ethanol E85 contains.... therefore I see tuning could be a little difficult.... this could allow for a winter & summer tune....?
Or as you say for E85 to Gasoline, particularly usefull for those who live in areas where E85 is not so freely available... a good 'limp home' function....
Is it possible for a fuel pump controller to be hooked up somehow within the Shark tuner programing??
ie a signal to lower pump voltage => fuel pressure