Sears Alignment: Things you might need to know
03-06-2008, 08:57 PM
#16
Rennlist Member
Thanks Bob!
So, to answer your first paragraph, i usually take the measurements on a pretty flat driveway, doing it both directions and taking an average. The level method for toe measurement with the toyos with the flat sidewall and no flex, works at the point the vertical plane hits the bottom of the tire and the ground. Thats for toe. But, for camber, the level only touches the rim, and i mesure how far it is on top of the rim compared to the level vertical. i trig it out to be about 1 degree for each 10mm of off vertical postion of the level. (ie 20mm is about 2 degrees)
Now the toe. I replaced the tie rod and left slightly more of the last thread so that the toe would go in slightly. It ended up exactly where i wanted it. but, that tire is now turning in that 1/8" more for a total toe of 1/16" toe in, vs before where i was toed out 1/16" . (in otherwords that works out to be about .15 degrees toe'ed in)
Im still confused on how if i now have the correct (or desired) toe, why cant i just move the wheel one spline to straighten it? Is it the range of motion or the bump steer that could be altered by a slightly shorter tie rod on one side.
Otherwise, if this is the toe i want, i would have to toe out the one side, and toe in the opposite side to make the car like it was before the alternation.
that's fine, but im wondering, if it is really nessesary.
Good advice about the setting. IM inclinded to think, as my car has been lowered all these years, (by adjusting and age), the toe has gone from 0 to toe'ed out 1/16" (.15 degrees) now, im noticing the wear is just not so good anymore. (burning up the inside tires) the camber is more too, and im inclinded to think i could take some out of there as well. (was 1.7 degrees , now more like 2)
as i understand it, if i set the camber, it will pull from the bottom of the tires inward from the front area where the tie rods are fixed, and this will add a little toe in. I guess i could then take my new one side toe in setting, and move it out a little to keep close to 0 toe.
at the track, with my heavy offsets, the car might not like it, so, i might have to live with it, or just pull out the camber and see if that helps the wear pattern.
Can going from .15 degrees toed in vs .15 toe'd out, fix a wear problem, or could it be a camber issue. the tire temps at the track , are not to far off desired. (about 160 165 170 degrees across the tire measure in the pits after a session (rears slightly less but same spread but no wear problems.) rears are toe'ed in by about 3/16", or EDIT: .5 degrees or so. (i think max spec is around .5 degrees from the manual). that could be a reason for the push. The car doesnt want the back end to rotate around some curves at the track.
MK
So, to answer your first paragraph, i usually take the measurements on a pretty flat driveway, doing it both directions and taking an average. The level method for toe measurement with the toyos with the flat sidewall and no flex, works at the point the vertical plane hits the bottom of the tire and the ground. Thats for toe. But, for camber, the level only touches the rim, and i mesure how far it is on top of the rim compared to the level vertical. i trig it out to be about 1 degree for each 10mm of off vertical postion of the level. (ie 20mm is about 2 degrees)
Now the toe. I replaced the tie rod and left slightly more of the last thread so that the toe would go in slightly. It ended up exactly where i wanted it. but, that tire is now turning in that 1/8" more for a total toe of 1/16" toe in, vs before where i was toed out 1/16" . (in otherwords that works out to be about .15 degrees toe'ed in)
Im still confused on how if i now have the correct (or desired) toe, why cant i just move the wheel one spline to straighten it? Is it the range of motion or the bump steer that could be altered by a slightly shorter tie rod on one side.
Otherwise, if this is the toe i want, i would have to toe out the one side, and toe in the opposite side to make the car like it was before the alternation.
that's fine, but im wondering, if it is really nessesary.
Good advice about the setting. IM inclinded to think, as my car has been lowered all these years, (by adjusting and age), the toe has gone from 0 to toe'ed out 1/16" (.15 degrees) now, im noticing the wear is just not so good anymore. (burning up the inside tires) the camber is more too, and im inclinded to think i could take some out of there as well. (was 1.7 degrees , now more like 2)
as i understand it, if i set the camber, it will pull from the bottom of the tires inward from the front area where the tie rods are fixed, and this will add a little toe in. I guess i could then take my new one side toe in setting, and move it out a little to keep close to 0 toe.
at the track, with my heavy offsets, the car might not like it, so, i might have to live with it, or just pull out the camber and see if that helps the wear pattern.
Can going from .15 degrees toed in vs .15 toe'd out, fix a wear problem, or could it be a camber issue. the tire temps at the track , are not to far off desired. (about 160 165 170 degrees across the tire measure in the pits after a session (rears slightly less but same spread but no wear problems.) rears are toe'ed in by about 3/16", or EDIT: .5 degrees or so. (i think max spec is around .5 degrees from the manual). that could be a reason for the push. The car doesnt want the back end to rotate around some curves at the track.
MK
Mark--
I'll pile on here. What's a good alignmnet thread without a lot of opinions...
IF (and this is a pretty big IF...) your garage floor is level side to side, you can do the camber and toe adjustments pretty easily at home. The level-against-the-tire method for camber is crude and generally inaccurate, mostly because the tire bulges at the bottom against the floor. Borrow or make a couple metal brackets that you can tie to the wheels (not the tires...) so you have a good platform from which to measure. Then do your trig based on target camber, the spacing between the measuring points where you rest your level. Solve for the distance between the top crossbar and your level, the space needed to get your spirit level to be vertical. I used the Captain Earl drill-bit spacer option when it came to getting it just right. With the car sitting on a level side-to-side floor, you can adjust camber so it's exactly the same on both sides. Do the rear too.
Then go on to toe. Poorly adjusted toe will wear the tires funny. Unevenly (off-center) toe will cause the steering wheel to be off center when driving straight down the road. You mentioned that you replaced one tie-rod end, used the thread-counting method, and came up with a steering wheel that isn't centered. And the total toe changed. Rather than just popping the wheel off and moving it a tooth, why don't you adjust the --other-- tie rod so the toe is correct and the wheel is centered? WYAIT, replace that other tie-rod and end too. Can't understand why these would ever be replaced individually unless one was bitten off or something.
Follow Earl's guidance on getting the rack centered, -then- then toe the front wheels so they are also centered on the centerline of the car. This is Very Important. Follow Earl's guidance on this! My little laser fixtures make it a little easier than using his strings method, but his method works and it's not tough.
Once you get the settings where you want them, use a paint marker to show where everything lines up. I can tell you that 1/16 of a turn on the tie rods makes the difference between being in the acceptable toe window or out, so mark carefully. Then when you get to the track and decide that your car really likes just a little toe-out with the more positive offset front wheels, you can restore the original street toe setting for the ride home. Like every other adjustment you make to the car, document your changes to the car and the results you experience. Reference your paint marks in your adjustment log, and use your digicam to assist your memory as needed. Once you have good reference settings, you can do freehand toe adjusts at the track for testing.
Have fun!
I'll pile on here. What's a good alignmnet thread without a lot of opinions...
IF (and this is a pretty big IF...) your garage floor is level side to side, you can do the camber and toe adjustments pretty easily at home. The level-against-the-tire method for camber is crude and generally inaccurate, mostly because the tire bulges at the bottom against the floor. Borrow or make a couple metal brackets that you can tie to the wheels (not the tires...) so you have a good platform from which to measure. Then do your trig based on target camber, the spacing between the measuring points where you rest your level. Solve for the distance between the top crossbar and your level, the space needed to get your spirit level to be vertical. I used the Captain Earl drill-bit spacer option when it came to getting it just right. With the car sitting on a level side-to-side floor, you can adjust camber so it's exactly the same on both sides. Do the rear too.
Then go on to toe. Poorly adjusted toe will wear the tires funny. Unevenly (off-center) toe will cause the steering wheel to be off center when driving straight down the road. You mentioned that you replaced one tie-rod end, used the thread-counting method, and came up with a steering wheel that isn't centered. And the total toe changed. Rather than just popping the wheel off and moving it a tooth, why don't you adjust the --other-- tie rod so the toe is correct and the wheel is centered? WYAIT, replace that other tie-rod and end too. Can't understand why these would ever be replaced individually unless one was bitten off or something.
Follow Earl's guidance on getting the rack centered, -then- then toe the front wheels so they are also centered on the centerline of the car. This is Very Important. Follow Earl's guidance on this! My little laser fixtures make it a little easier than using his strings method, but his method works and it's not tough.
Once you get the settings where you want them, use a paint marker to show where everything lines up. I can tell you that 1/16 of a turn on the tie rods makes the difference between being in the acceptable toe window or out, so mark carefully. Then when you get to the track and decide that your car really likes just a little toe-out with the more positive offset front wheels, you can restore the original street toe setting for the ride home. Like every other adjustment you make to the car, document your changes to the car and the results you experience. Reference your paint marks in your adjustment log, and use your digicam to assist your memory as needed. Once you have good reference settings, you can do freehand toe adjusts at the track for testing.
Have fun!
03-06-2008, 09:50 PM
#17
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Mark, you might ought to buy track-time on the Hunter 400 at Sears. Just be sure to video it so we can all learn. Really, it would have to be interesting to see the interactions occur as you tweaked the bolts and watched the screen. Maybe no more accurate, but you could literally chart the interactions on graphs.
For the central virginians, I just went to the Sears at the Chesterfield mall. The guy's name wasn't really Joe, but he was an older and very experienced guy, about 5 10, 200 lbs. I'll stop by tomorrow after work and determine his real name if you want. He was working last saturday morning in the bay furthest from the sales area. I was extremely polite and respectful to him, maybe he won't mind trying his hand at a few more sharks!
BTW, got inspected this morning and rolled to work! I love this car.
For the central virginians, I just went to the Sears at the Chesterfield mall. The guy's name wasn't really Joe, but he was an older and very experienced guy, about 5 10, 200 lbs. I'll stop by tomorrow after work and determine his real name if you want. He was working last saturday morning in the bay furthest from the sales area. I was extremely polite and respectful to him, maybe he won't mind trying his hand at a few more sharks!
BTW, got inspected this morning and rolled to work! I love this car.
03-06-2008, 11:07 PM
#18
Under the Lift
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If the steering wheel tracks centered driving straight on level ground, then your toe is at least equal. If not, then you are starting with unequal toe.
Do the toe adjustment. If you are doing just TOTAL toe and not each side individually, then you may end up with unequal toe. To tell, drive the car. If the steering wheel is centered when driving straight on level ground, you are done. If the steering wheel is off-center, then the toe is unequal. If so, you would turn the tie rods in opposite directions to shift the toe until the car tracks with the steering wheel centered.
Anyway, you should end up with the rack and steering wheel centered and the tie rods equal length. If not, then the car must have been smacked good enough at one time to screw up it's geometry.
03-07-2008, 01:23 AM
#19
Chronic Tool Dropper
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Mark--
Figure out how far off of level the floor is, and shim the low tires up with something to get them all on the level. Many floors are 'almost' level with 1/4" in five feet. Consider that stock camber is 5/32 in a foot and a half, and the slope in the floor becomes very significant. Make a water level out of plastic tube you can get at HD, a little food coloring in the water. Figure out the differences and make some shims out of plywood as needed. Mark the floor where you place the shim packs and number them so they go back to the same places. You won't get it right with "close to level" and turning the car the other way for an average. Having camber different side-to-side will cause the car to pull.
Having a lot of camber will add to tire wear, but it won't wear just the inside edge-- it wears across the whole tread. Remember that 5/32 at 18"? That's about 3/32 difference in tread depth from outside edge to inside edge. If you are scuffing a band on the inside, you have a toe out problem.
A lister came by with his car last weekend, on the way to our karting event. He had toe-in set at more than 1/2º. We took 3/8 of a rotation out of each tie-rod to get it to 1/4º (same as 15 mins).
Just a reminder that when Bill says that camber affects toe settings, what he's saying is that adjusting camber and caster will afffect the toe. Gett he camber right, adjust toe. Drive and adjust camber at the min that gets you straight down a level road with no pull. You must verify camber, and readjust toe after every caster adjustment.
There's a real good case for taking your car for a pro alignment. You can tell them the settings you want to use. Then mark everything with a paint marker before you adjust anything yourself. At least that way you'll have a good known starting point.
Alignment on the 928 is so critical and sensitive that you can tell almost instantly when you get it right. Doesn't have to be off much to feel funny, and having it right makes a lot of things suddenly work together a lot better. The handling calms down noticeably when alignment's perfect.
Figure out how far off of level the floor is, and shim the low tires up with something to get them all on the level. Many floors are 'almost' level with 1/4" in five feet. Consider that stock camber is 5/32 in a foot and a half, and the slope in the floor becomes very significant. Make a water level out of plastic tube you can get at HD, a little food coloring in the water. Figure out the differences and make some shims out of plywood as needed. Mark the floor where you place the shim packs and number them so they go back to the same places. You won't get it right with "close to level" and turning the car the other way for an average. Having camber different side-to-side will cause the car to pull.
Having a lot of camber will add to tire wear, but it won't wear just the inside edge-- it wears across the whole tread. Remember that 5/32 at 18"? That's about 3/32 difference in tread depth from outside edge to inside edge. If you are scuffing a band on the inside, you have a toe out problem.
A lister came by with his car last weekend, on the way to our karting event. He had toe-in set at more than 1/2º. We took 3/8 of a rotation out of each tie-rod to get it to 1/4º (same as 15 mins).
Just a reminder that when Bill says that camber affects toe settings, what he's saying is that adjusting camber and caster will afffect the toe. Gett he camber right, adjust toe. Drive and adjust camber at the min that gets you straight down a level road with no pull. You must verify camber, and readjust toe after every caster adjustment.
There's a real good case for taking your car for a pro alignment. You can tell them the settings you want to use. Then mark everything with a paint marker before you adjust anything yourself. At least that way you'll have a good known starting point.
Alignment on the 928 is so critical and sensitive that you can tell almost instantly when you get it right. Doesn't have to be off much to feel funny, and having it right makes a lot of things suddenly work together a lot better. The handling calms down noticeably when alignment's perfect.
03-07-2008, 07:10 PM
#20
Rennlist Member
Great advice Bob and Bill,
I get it.
So, until i get that pro alignment, which i think i should do (or anyone) as soon as we start thinking about the rears (my rears seem to be toed in a little too much), what about the 1/4 turn difference between tie rod lengths. Im still trying to find out if moving the sterring wheel, rather than taking a little out of both tie rods, can work with no downside. its it a range of motion thing or will one side react with bump steer differently? Im only talking about 1 spline on the steeringwheel to line up perfecly and it doesnt pull.
seems that Bob, you are saying since the only wear im seeing is on that inside band of tread! if 1/8" of toe out can do this (ie before tie rod change) , 1/16" of toe in should help?
basically, how i measure toe, is using marks from the sides of the wheels to the ground. it makes a tapazoid. since im only measuring distances, the two marks on one side vs the other. 19-20" apart. if we are off 3/16th , like i am in the rear, thats 3/16 divided by 19 (inv-tan) = total toe in or out in degrees.
the rear is near .5degrees toed in and my front is .15 (near stock spec) toe in.
mk
I get it.
So, until i get that pro alignment, which i think i should do (or anyone) as soon as we start thinking about the rears (my rears seem to be toed in a little too much), what about the 1/4 turn difference between tie rod lengths. Im still trying to find out if moving the sterring wheel, rather than taking a little out of both tie rods, can work with no downside. its it a range of motion thing or will one side react with bump steer differently? Im only talking about 1 spline on the steeringwheel to line up perfecly and it doesnt pull.
seems that Bob, you are saying since the only wear im seeing is on that inside band of tread! if 1/8" of toe out can do this (ie before tie rod change) , 1/16" of toe in should help?
basically, how i measure toe, is using marks from the sides of the wheels to the ground. it makes a tapazoid. since im only measuring distances, the two marks on one side vs the other. 19-20" apart. if we are off 3/16th , like i am in the rear, thats 3/16 divided by 19 (inv-tan) = total toe in or out in degrees.
the rear is near .5degrees toed in and my front is .15 (near stock spec) toe in.
mk
Mark--
Figure out how far off of level the floor is, and shim the low tires up with something to get them all on the level. Many floors are 'almost' level with 1/4" in five feet. Consider that stock camber is 5/32 in a foot and a half, and the slope in the floor becomes very significant. Make a water level out of plastic tube you can get at HD, a little food coloring in the water. Figure out the differences and make some shims out of plywood as needed. Mark the floor where you place the shim packs and number them so they go back to the same places. You won't get it right with "close to level" and turning the car the other way for an average. Having camber different side-to-side will cause the car to pull.
Having a lot of camber will add to tire wear, but it won't wear just the inside edge-- it wears across the whole tread. Remember that 5/32 at 18"? That's about 3/32 difference in tread depth from outside edge to inside edge. If you are scuffing a band on the inside, you have a toe out problem.
A lister came by with his car last weekend, on the way to our karting event. He had toe-in set at more than 1/2º. We took 3/8 of a rotation out of each tie-rod to get it to 1/4º (same as 15 mins).
Just a reminder that when Bill says that camber affects toe settings, what he's saying is that adjusting camber and caster will afffect the toe. Gett he camber right, adjust toe. Drive and adjust camber at the min that gets you straight down a level road with no pull. You must verify camber, and readjust toe after every caster adjustment.
There's a real good case for taking your car for a pro alignment. You can tell them the settings you want to use. Then mark everything with a paint marker before you adjust anything yourself. At least that way you'll have a good known starting point.
Alignment on the 928 is so critical and sensitive that you can tell almost instantly when you get it right. Doesn't have to be off much to feel funny, and having it right makes a lot of things suddenly work together a lot better. The handling calms down noticeably when alignment's perfect.
Figure out how far off of level the floor is, and shim the low tires up with something to get them all on the level. Many floors are 'almost' level with 1/4" in five feet. Consider that stock camber is 5/32 in a foot and a half, and the slope in the floor becomes very significant. Make a water level out of plastic tube you can get at HD, a little food coloring in the water. Figure out the differences and make some shims out of plywood as needed. Mark the floor where you place the shim packs and number them so they go back to the same places. You won't get it right with "close to level" and turning the car the other way for an average. Having camber different side-to-side will cause the car to pull.
Having a lot of camber will add to tire wear, but it won't wear just the inside edge-- it wears across the whole tread. Remember that 5/32 at 18"? That's about 3/32 difference in tread depth from outside edge to inside edge. If you are scuffing a band on the inside, you have a toe out problem.
A lister came by with his car last weekend, on the way to our karting event. He had toe-in set at more than 1/2º. We took 3/8 of a rotation out of each tie-rod to get it to 1/4º (same as 15 mins).
Just a reminder that when Bill says that camber affects toe settings, what he's saying is that adjusting camber and caster will afffect the toe. Gett he camber right, adjust toe. Drive and adjust camber at the min that gets you straight down a level road with no pull. You must verify camber, and readjust toe after every caster adjustment.
There's a real good case for taking your car for a pro alignment. You can tell them the settings you want to use. Then mark everything with a paint marker before you adjust anything yourself. At least that way you'll have a good known starting point.
Alignment on the 928 is so critical and sensitive that you can tell almost instantly when you get it right. Doesn't have to be off much to feel funny, and having it right makes a lot of things suddenly work together a lot better. The handling calms down noticeably when alignment's perfect.
03-07-2008, 07:45 PM
#21
Chronic Tool Dropper
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Mark--
Consider why you have toe-in and not have the wheels parallel when going straight. Actually, your target is to have the wheels going straight when going down the road. The toe-in of 1/4 of a degree is there to compensate for normal new unworn-suspension play in the tie rods and ends, and the rack. We generally depend on the factory setting while forgetting that they don't make an allowance for wear in the steering bits.
You continue to make a reference to toe settings using inches as the unit. Toe is measured or calculated in degrees and/or fractions of a degree. The good part about your posts about your toe settings is that I can usually pick out that it's toe'd in or toe'd out. Consider that you now have .15 degrees of toe in by your measurement and calculation. My calculation says that the trapezoid is 3/8" difference to get .25 degrees at 82" spread. That's 3/16" difference at 41" spread. Doing it your way, at 19" spread, the width of your pen lines will be greater than the difference in spread, about 5/64" total difference beteen your front and rear marks. Please check your math.
For grins, give it your best shot with your method, then get the thing aligned. When you get home, check it again with your method. Go drive it around the blco and check it again. Your readings will vary by a lot, I suspect, mostly because you don't have enough resolution in such a short distance. I spent the best part of an afternoon just getting my laser fixtures aligned and dialed in correctly before I ever put them on the car. My commercial alignment was far enough off to make me go and again verify the fixtures were correct. That's before I touched the wrenches to anything on the car. Then I found that tiny changes in the tie rods make serious changes in toe.
Does Marc still have the alignmnet rack, and is it installed at the Hayward shop? Might be worth the treck over there if you can get him to open the doors there for you. Then you can spin the wrenches and see the results yourself.
Consider why you have toe-in and not have the wheels parallel when going straight. Actually, your target is to have the wheels going straight when going down the road. The toe-in of 1/4 of a degree is there to compensate for normal new unworn-suspension play in the tie rods and ends, and the rack. We generally depend on the factory setting while forgetting that they don't make an allowance for wear in the steering bits.
You continue to make a reference to toe settings using inches as the unit. Toe is measured or calculated in degrees and/or fractions of a degree. The good part about your posts about your toe settings is that I can usually pick out that it's toe'd in or toe'd out. Consider that you now have .15 degrees of toe in by your measurement and calculation. My calculation says that the trapezoid is 3/8" difference to get .25 degrees at 82" spread. That's 3/16" difference at 41" spread. Doing it your way, at 19" spread, the width of your pen lines will be greater than the difference in spread, about 5/64" total difference beteen your front and rear marks. Please check your math.
For grins, give it your best shot with your method, then get the thing aligned. When you get home, check it again with your method. Go drive it around the blco and check it again. Your readings will vary by a lot, I suspect, mostly because you don't have enough resolution in such a short distance. I spent the best part of an afternoon just getting my laser fixtures aligned and dialed in correctly before I ever put them on the car. My commercial alignment was far enough off to make me go and again verify the fixtures were correct. That's before I touched the wrenches to anything on the car. Then I found that tiny changes in the tie rods make serious changes in toe.
Does Marc still have the alignmnet rack, and is it installed at the Hayward shop? Might be worth the treck over there if you can get him to open the doors there for you. Then you can spin the wrenches and see the results yourself.
03-07-2008, 07:57 PM
#22
Rennlist Member
see if im making a mistake
two marks on each side, 19" apart. 1/16" difference from front to back line would be like on side has a triangle. 1/16" (.0625") / 19" (inv Tan) = .18 degrees. total spec is near .25 degrees toe in.. Before, i was toe'd out by 3x this amount. (ie 1/8" ) should i shoot more for 0 ? and then be 2/16" diff from when i had the problem , old tie rod installed?
EDIT ABOVE before and after differences. (i was rushing out the door when I wrote this)
mk
two marks on each side, 19" apart. 1/16" difference from front to back line would be like on side has a triangle. 1/16" (.0625") / 19" (inv Tan) = .18 degrees. total spec is near .25 degrees toe in.. Before, i was toe'd out by 3x this amount. (ie 1/8" ) should i shoot more for 0 ? and then be 2/16" diff from when i had the problem , old tie rod installed?
EDIT ABOVE before and after differences. (i was rushing out the door when I wrote this)
mk
Mark--
Consider why you have toe-in and not have the wheels parallel when going straight. Actually, your target is to have the wheels going straight when going down the road. The toe-in of 1/4 of a degree is there to compensate for normal new unworn-suspension play in the tie rods and ends, and the rack. We generally depend on the factory setting while forgetting that they don't make an allowance for wear in the steering bits.
You continue to make a reference to toe settings using inches as the unit. Toe is measured or calculated in degrees and/or fractions of a degree. The good part about your posts about your toe settings is that I can usually pick out that it's toe'd in or toe'd out. Consider that you now have .15 degrees of toe in by your measurement and calculation. My calculation says that the trapezoid is 3/8" difference to get .25 degrees at 82" spread. That's 3/16" difference at 41" spread. Doing it your way, at 19" spread, the width of your pen lines will be greater than the difference in spread, about 5/64" total difference beteen your front and rear marks. Please check your math.
For grins, give it your best shot with your method, then get the thing aligned. When you get home, check it again with your method. Go drive it around the blco and check it again. Your readings will vary by a lot, I suspect, mostly because you don't have enough resolution in such a short distance. I spent the best part of an afternoon just getting my laser fixtures aligned and dialed in correctly before I ever put them on the car. My commercial alignment was far enough off to make me go and again verify the fixtures were correct. That's before I touched the wrenches to anything on the car. Then I found that tiny changes in the tie rods make serious changes in toe.
Does Marc still have the alignmnet rack, and is it installed at the Hayward shop? Might be worth the treck over there if you can get him to open the doors there for you. Then you can spin the wrenches and see the results yourself.
Consider why you have toe-in and not have the wheels parallel when going straight. Actually, your target is to have the wheels going straight when going down the road. The toe-in of 1/4 of a degree is there to compensate for normal new unworn-suspension play in the tie rods and ends, and the rack. We generally depend on the factory setting while forgetting that they don't make an allowance for wear in the steering bits.
You continue to make a reference to toe settings using inches as the unit. Toe is measured or calculated in degrees and/or fractions of a degree. The good part about your posts about your toe settings is that I can usually pick out that it's toe'd in or toe'd out. Consider that you now have .15 degrees of toe in by your measurement and calculation. My calculation says that the trapezoid is 3/8" difference to get .25 degrees at 82" spread. That's 3/16" difference at 41" spread. Doing it your way, at 19" spread, the width of your pen lines will be greater than the difference in spread, about 5/64" total difference beteen your front and rear marks. Please check your math.
For grins, give it your best shot with your method, then get the thing aligned. When you get home, check it again with your method. Go drive it around the blco and check it again. Your readings will vary by a lot, I suspect, mostly because you don't have enough resolution in such a short distance. I spent the best part of an afternoon just getting my laser fixtures aligned and dialed in correctly before I ever put them on the car. My commercial alignment was far enough off to make me go and again verify the fixtures were correct. That's before I touched the wrenches to anything on the car. Then I found that tiny changes in the tie rods make serious changes in toe.
Does Marc still have the alignmnet rack, and is it installed at the Hayward shop? Might be worth the treck over there if you can get him to open the doors there for you. Then you can spin the wrenches and see the results yourself.
Last edited by mark kibort; 03-08-2008 at 12:58 AM.
03-07-2008, 08:42 PM
#23
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As an aside, PM's sent to the central virginia crew regarding technician name at sears chesterfield va.
Mark, you continue to be the family hero. They saw pics of you arriving at a race with tires packed into the shark, and love the videos of the shark battling all competitors. Get the damn thing aligned right so it will pass more cars, please.
Mark, you continue to be the family hero. They saw pics of you arriving at a race with tires packed into the shark, and love the videos of the shark battling all competitors. Get the damn thing aligned right so it will pass more cars, please.
03-07-2008, 11:04 PM
#24
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Mark--
1/16" = 4/64" I come up with barely 5/64" at 19", so we are thinking the same thing. But that wasn't my point really. How thick is the line you are drawing? eg: I have my trusty 0.5mm fine point Pentel drafting pencil in my hand, and it draws a line .040" if held perpendicular to the paper. The total difference you are looking for is 0.078", not quite twice the width of the pencil line. I just can't see that you will get accurate/consistent/repeatable results with only 19" between your measurements and a measuring line width that's half of that target difference. I'm not sure I could read 5/64" consistently on my tape measure either. That's the primary reason why I chose to stretch the trapezoid out to 82"-- it makes any error on the line width and/or reading the tape measure much less. Just shoot for 3/8" to 1/2" difference and call it a day.
HTH!
1/16" = 4/64" I come up with barely 5/64" at 19", so we are thinking the same thing. But that wasn't my point really. How thick is the line you are drawing? eg: I have my trusty 0.5mm fine point Pentel drafting pencil in my hand, and it draws a line .040" if held perpendicular to the paper. The total difference you are looking for is 0.078", not quite twice the width of the pencil line. I just can't see that you will get accurate/consistent/repeatable results with only 19" between your measurements and a measuring line width that's half of that target difference. I'm not sure I could read 5/64" consistently on my tape measure either. That's the primary reason why I chose to stretch the trapezoid out to 82"-- it makes any error on the line width and/or reading the tape measure much less. Just shoot for 3/8" to 1/2" difference and call it a day.
HTH!
03-08-2008, 02:28 AM
#25
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I understand, that the difference is very small, but i draw the lines off a straight surface with a magic marker. i am consistant to measure to the very inside edge, and it is remarkably repeatable.
Here is the front marks, 0 and 71 1/4" and the rear marks 1/16" wider.
they are near 19" apart , just like the camber is measured with the level. Notice the 20mm distance to vertical with the level resting clearly on the rim surface.
I think the more i think it will be fine, the more i want to just take it to sears. (the store, not the race track
)
Mk
Here is the front marks, 0 and 71 1/4" and the rear marks 1/16" wider.
they are near 19" apart , just like the camber is measured with the level. Notice the 20mm distance to vertical with the level resting clearly on the rim surface.
I think the more i think it will be fine, the more i want to just take it to sears. (the store, not the race track
)Mk
Mark--
1/16" = 4/64" I come up with barely 5/64" at 19", so we are thinking the same thing. But that wasn't my point really. How thick is the line you are drawing? eg: I have my trusty 0.5mm fine point Pentel drafting pencil in my hand, and it draws a line .040" if held perpendicular to the paper. The total difference you are looking for is 0.078", not quite twice the width of the pencil line. I just can't see that you will get accurate/consistent/repeatable results with only 19" between your measurements and a measuring line width that's half of that target difference. I'm not sure I could read 5/64" consistently on my tape measure either. That's the primary reason why I chose to stretch the trapezoid out to 82"-- it makes any error on the line width and/or reading the tape measure much less. Just shoot for 3/8" to 1/2" difference and call it a day.
HTH!
1/16" = 4/64" I come up with barely 5/64" at 19", so we are thinking the same thing. But that wasn't my point really. How thick is the line you are drawing? eg: I have my trusty 0.5mm fine point Pentel drafting pencil in my hand, and it draws a line .040" if held perpendicular to the paper. The total difference you are looking for is 0.078", not quite twice the width of the pencil line. I just can't see that you will get accurate/consistent/repeatable results with only 19" between your measurements and a measuring line width that's half of that target difference. I'm not sure I could read 5/64" consistently on my tape measure either. That's the primary reason why I chose to stretch the trapezoid out to 82"-- it makes any error on the line width and/or reading the tape measure much less. Just shoot for 3/8" to 1/2" difference and call it a day.
HTH!
Last edited by mark kibort; 03-10-2008 at 01:28 AM.
03-08-2008, 05:30 PM
#26
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Mark, I think you illustrated the problem perfectly. Your marker draws a line that's the same or greater width as the distance between the smallest divisions (1/16") on your tape. The resolution you need is one line-width. "Measuring to the inside edge" may be good in theory, assuming that you have very consistant marks in a smooth surface. The variations are so small that you could easily be plus-or-minus up to half a line width, and throw your adjustments by 50% plus-or-minus and never realize it.
I know you are on the quest for cheap-and-easy, low budget racing. I guess it doesn't hurt as much when you chew up dumpster tires as it would a set of Mich Pilot PS2's on my car. It will be interesting to see what the pro alignment "before" numbers look like compared with what you are expecting.
I know you are on the quest for cheap-and-easy, low budget racing. I guess it doesn't hurt as much when you chew up dumpster tires as it would a set of Mich Pilot PS2's on my car. It will be interesting to see what the pro alignment "before" numbers look like compared with what you are expecting.
03-08-2008, 10:56 PM
#27
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Yeah, its driving me crazy, you are right. I just went for a hard mountain drive, racing a bunch of rice rockets and burning up my precious race rubber.
By the way, it tracks better than ever, steering wheel is centered (moved it one spline) and drives great. However, when i came back to the house, i measured the toe and camber. camber is still the same, but then we knew it would be. (about 2 degrees, or 18mm off the vertical at the rim edge) BUT, to your point, the toe marks, even though i measured the 100 times, they are still 1/16" off, but both marks are now 1/8 closer. So, there is clearly some errors in the measuring technique. But , at least they are still only 1/16" apart on the toe in side. ive measured my toe for years and ive been toed out 1/16 to 1/8th , so i think the new tie rod has got me on the toe in side.
I think its worth $50 to at least check it on the hunter machine (thats what my friends at Wheel Works will do for me.
right now, im .18 degrees toe, 2degrees camber for all wheels except the passenger side rear that is more like 1.8 degrees . Toe on the rear is now, .36 degrees.
You heard it here. Lets see what the hunter says! I do remember doing this comparison about 5 years ago, and I wasnt that far off.
I think im beginning to like you laser idea. Maybe ill shoot the beam over to my neighbors garage door and make a chart over there with a magic marker.
mk
MK
By the way, it tracks better than ever, steering wheel is centered (moved it one spline) and drives great. However, when i came back to the house, i measured the toe and camber. camber is still the same, but then we knew it would be. (about 2 degrees, or 18mm off the vertical at the rim edge) BUT, to your point, the toe marks, even though i measured the 100 times, they are still 1/16" off, but both marks are now 1/8 closer. So, there is clearly some errors in the measuring technique. But , at least they are still only 1/16" apart on the toe in side. ive measured my toe for years and ive been toed out 1/16 to 1/8th , so i think the new tie rod has got me on the toe in side.
I think its worth $50 to at least check it on the hunter machine (thats what my friends at Wheel Works will do for me.
right now, im .18 degrees toe, 2degrees camber for all wheels except the passenger side rear that is more like 1.8 degrees . Toe on the rear is now, .36 degrees.
You heard it here. Lets see what the hunter says! I do remember doing this comparison about 5 years ago, and I wasnt that far off.
I think im beginning to like you laser idea. Maybe ill shoot the beam over to my neighbors garage door and make a chart over there with a magic marker
.mk
MK
Mark, I think you illustrated the problem perfectly. Your marker draws a line that's the same or greater width as the distance between the smallest divisions (1/16") on your tape. The resolution you need is one line-width. "Measuring to the inside edge" may be good in theory, assuming that you have very consistant marks in a smooth surface. The variations are so small that you could easily be plus-or-minus up to half a line width, and throw your adjustments by 50% plus-or-minus and never realize it.
I know you are on the quest for cheap-and-easy, low budget racing. I guess it doesn't hurt as much when you chew up dumpster tires as it would a set of Mich Pilot PS2's on my car. It will be interesting to see what the pro alignment "before" numbers look like compared with what you are expecting.
I know you are on the quest for cheap-and-easy, low budget racing. I guess it doesn't hurt as much when you chew up dumpster tires as it would a set of Mich Pilot PS2's on my car. It will be interesting to see what the pro alignment "before" numbers look like compared with what you are expecting.
03-10-2008, 09:10 AM
#29
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Mark-
Camber wear would have a rather even progression of wear from outside to inside. Your tire looks like the whole inside edge is scrubbed, including that inside groove. I'll go with toe-out, or a combination of toe-out and too much camber. Your tire pyrometer should be telling you where the tire is working the most, btw.
In the new measurements you mentioned above, did the ride height change any from the first measurement, through the fun drive, to the second measurements? And di you have the car sitting in the same place on your garage floor?
Camber wear would have a rather even progression of wear from outside to inside. Your tire looks like the whole inside edge is scrubbed, including that inside groove. I'll go with toe-out, or a combination of toe-out and too much camber. Your tire pyrometer should be telling you where the tire is working the most, btw.
In the new measurements you mentioned above, did the ride height change any from the first measurement, through the fun drive, to the second measurements? And di you have the car sitting in the same place on your garage floor?
03-10-2008, 03:23 PM
#30
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Thats what im hoping for. (too much toe in before) .
Now that the toe in has changed about 3/16" , and is near 0 (slightly toed in) it might solve that problem. at the track, the tire temps were progressive, but this recent cording happed driving over the winter on the streets.
another note: I pulled the little cap on the steering rack to see if it was centered now. Guess what? that little centering hole was right in the window!
Lucky huh?
anyway, wheel is straight as an arrow, toe measures out to be .15 degrees and i have a new tierod to boot.
Yes, I always measure at the same spot. ride hight was sligtly lower, as its not a big problem like it is with the stock 928 suspension it settles pretty quick. about .5" lower after a drive.
mk
Now that the toe in has changed about 3/16" , and is near 0 (slightly toed in) it might solve that problem. at the track, the tire temps were progressive, but this recent cording happed driving over the winter on the streets.
another note: I pulled the little cap on the steering rack to see if it was centered now. Guess what? that little centering hole was right in the window!
Lucky huh?
anyway, wheel is straight as an arrow, toe measures out to be .15 degrees and i have a new tierod to boot.
Yes, I always measure at the same spot. ride hight was sligtly lower, as its not a big problem like it is with the stock 928 suspension it settles pretty quick. about .5" lower after a drive.
mk
Mark-
Camber wear would have a rather even progression of wear from outside to inside. Your tire looks like the whole inside edge is scrubbed, including that inside groove. I'll go with toe-out, or a combination of toe-out and too much camber. Your tire pyrometer should be telling you where the tire is working the most, btw.
In the new measurements you mentioned above, did the ride height change any from the first measurement, through the fun drive, to the second measurements? And di you have the car sitting in the same place on your garage floor?
Camber wear would have a rather even progression of wear from outside to inside. Your tire looks like the whole inside edge is scrubbed, including that inside groove. I'll go with toe-out, or a combination of toe-out and too much camber. Your tire pyrometer should be telling you where the tire is working the most, btw.
In the new measurements you mentioned above, did the ride height change any from the first measurement, through the fun drive, to the second measurements? And di you have the car sitting in the same place on your garage floor?