Headlights will not 'POP UP'
03-03-2008, 09:25 PM
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Headlights will not 'POP UP'
Another problem with my newly acquired '87 S4.
The headlights will not pop up when they are turned on. They light up fine, but will not lift themslves out of the fenders.
Any suggestions? Is it a faulty relay?
The headlights will not pop up when they are turned on. They light up fine, but will not lift themslves out of the fenders.
Any suggestions? Is it a faulty relay?
03-03-2008, 09:49 PM
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DON'T TOUCH THAT DIAL!
BEFORE you start checking relays and such -
Open the hood and look at the bar that transverses from right to left - it is about is 35 to 45 mm in diameter and in front of the top radiator mount. This bar is what turns to raise the headlights. The bar is connected to the motor by a arm that goes up and down - this is on the drivers side of your car - these arms are attached by C clips - if one of the C - clips falls off - the arm goes thru your radiator! I can't explain it that well and am sure there are pictures - do a quick search PLEASE.
After making sure of that - check your
Relay - relay - relay x ground - ground - ground
BEFORE you start checking relays and such -
Open the hood and look at the bar that transverses from right to left - it is about is 35 to 45 mm in diameter and in front of the top radiator mount. This bar is what turns to raise the headlights. The bar is connected to the motor by a arm that goes up and down - this is on the drivers side of your car - these arms are attached by C clips - if one of the C - clips falls off - the arm goes thru your radiator! I can't explain it that well and am sure there are pictures - do a quick search PLEASE.
After making sure of that - check your
Relay - relay - relay x ground - ground - ground
03-03-2008, 09:53 PM
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Could be a relay. Could be a faulty ignition switch.(crazy I know, but trust me from MANY hours of frustration) Could be the headlamp motor. For the time being, you can raise them manually. Facing the motor with the hood raised, there is a black cylinder about as big around as a Coke can on the right side. Pull the rubber boot straight up and off, and you can twist the **** to raise or lower them by hand. BE SURE that the E-clips on the actuator arm for the headlights are in place. It looks like a metal elbow joint between the radiator and the nose of the car. It attaches to this motor. If they are not in place, you can wind up with a perforated radiator when the arm moves. Best of luck!!!
03-03-2008, 10:09 PM
#4
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I'll vote for "link fell off the arm" too. The limit switches that actually allow the light to turn on depend on the motor to get the lamps to full upright position first, and that switch is on the motor. So if the lights go on but don't go up, that little link probably fell off.
As Mike mentioned, this is a common failure that even more commonly causes that link to get shoved through the AC condenser and the radiator. The link connects the arm on the little motor to the crossbar on which the headlights are mounted. The link slides over some pins at each end, and is retained on those pins with little E-clips. The clips get lost when you brush against them while working on the car, cleaning the car, driving the car. There are E-clip gremlins that sneak through the grill and steal them. Point is, this is something that needs to be checked regularly if you have the E-clip style retainers. Or change to an external snap ring that is a more positive locking method, and requires a snap ring plier to remove. Note also that there's a thin washer between the clip and the nylong bushing in the arm; without that washer, normal cycling of the headlights will eventually cause that e-clip to fly off.
Here's to hoping you didn't ventilate the condenser or radiator.
As Mike mentioned, this is a common failure that even more commonly causes that link to get shoved through the AC condenser and the radiator. The link connects the arm on the little motor to the crossbar on which the headlights are mounted. The link slides over some pins at each end, and is retained on those pins with little E-clips. The clips get lost when you brush against them while working on the car, cleaning the car, driving the car. There are E-clip gremlins that sneak through the grill and steal them. Point is, this is something that needs to be checked regularly if you have the E-clip style retainers. Or change to an external snap ring that is a more positive locking method, and requires a snap ring plier to remove. Note also that there's a thin washer between the clip and the nylong bushing in the arm; without that washer, normal cycling of the headlights will eventually cause that e-clip to fly off.
Here's to hoping you didn't ventilate the condenser or radiator.
03-03-2008, 10:32 PM
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Whats the possibility that you get a "brake light" warning as well when they don't pop up? I have found this to be true with my 82. I suspect a ground issue or something at the fuse panel...doubt it;'s the light control unit.
03-03-2008, 11:17 PM
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I'll vote for "link fell off the arm" too. The limit switches that actually allow the light to turn on depend on the motor to get the lamps to full upright position first, and that switch is on the motor. So if the lights go on but don't go up, that little link probably fell off.
As Mike mentioned, this is a common failure that even more commonly causes that link to get shoved through the AC condenser and the radiator. The link connects the arm on the little motor to the crossbar on which the headlights are mounted. The link slides over some pins at each end, and is retained on those pins with little E-clips. The clips get lost when you brush against them while working on the car, cleaning the car, driving the car. There are E-clip gremlins that sneak through the grill and steal them. Point is, this is something that needs to be checked regularly if you have the E-clip style retainers. Or change to an external snap ring that is a more positive locking method, and requires a snap ring plier to remove. Note also that there's a thin washer between the clip and the nylong bushing in the arm; without that washer, normal cycling of the headlights will eventually cause that e-clip to fly off.
Here's to hoping you didn't ventilate the condenser or radiator.
As Mike mentioned, this is a common failure that even more commonly causes that link to get shoved through the AC condenser and the radiator. The link connects the arm on the little motor to the crossbar on which the headlights are mounted. The link slides over some pins at each end, and is retained on those pins with little E-clips. The clips get lost when you brush against them while working on the car, cleaning the car, driving the car. There are E-clip gremlins that sneak through the grill and steal them. Point is, this is something that needs to be checked regularly if you have the E-clip style retainers. Or change to an external snap ring that is a more positive locking method, and requires a snap ring plier to remove. Note also that there's a thin washer between the clip and the nylong bushing in the arm; without that washer, normal cycling of the headlights will eventually cause that e-clip to fly off.
Here's to hoping you didn't ventilate the condenser or radiator.
03-04-2008, 02:14 AM
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The E-clips are all there and the arm is still connected to the motor and crossbar. It must be either a ground, headlight motor, or relay. The headlights are up about 1/2" from the full down psoition, so somethinhg must have failed and the motor is not getting any power now. I'll work on it tomorrow when I start the timing belt tear down.
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03-04-2008, 06:45 AM
#8
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The E-clips are all there and the arm is still connected to the motor and crossbar. It must be either a ground, headlight motor, or relay. The headlights are up about 1/2" from the full down psoition, so somethinhg must have failed and the motor is not getting any power now. I'll work on it tomorrow when I start the timing belt tear down.
I have a 928 624 021 00 used headlight motor that was supplied by the P.O It has just been sitting in a box so you can have it for the cost of shipping.
PM me
03-04-2008, 07:11 AM
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Here are 2 pictures showing the current position of the arm. It is right against the a/c condenser and is actually touching a coil loop.
That doesn't seem right to me. The lights are about 3/8" raised from the total bottom position.
That doesn't seem right to me. The lights are about 3/8" raised from the total bottom position.
03-04-2008, 07:25 AM
#10
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Could be a relay. Could be a faulty ignition switch.(crazy I know, but trust me from MANY hours of frustration) Could be the headlamp motor. For the time being, you can raise them manually. Facing the motor with the hood raised, there is a black cylinder about as big around as a Coke can on the right side. Pull the rubber boot straight up and off, and you can twist the **** to raise or lower them by hand. BE SURE that the E-clips on the actuator arm for the headlights are in place. It looks like a metal elbow joint between the radiator and the nose of the car. It attaches to this motor. If they are not in place, you can wind up with a perforated radiator when the arm moves. Best of luck!!!
03-04-2008, 07:41 AM
#11
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It looks to me like the drive arm on the motor has slipped. I would recommend no power on this circuit until you've corrected it! I had read all the warnings in the archives about this notorious arm, and then conveniently forgot them. Thought I would check out a "headlight no raise" problem one more time before calling it quits for the day, heard a thunk and then a drip, and then my memory started working again
That was last summer. Fortunately JB Weld (LOVE that stuff
) saved the day and fixed the small hole. (For doubters, it's been well over a thousand miles and no leaks!). Anyway, I decided that since I am obviously stupid I would fix it as others have done so it wouldn't happen again, just drilled holes for some cotter pins - no more e-clips. You can see the fix (and the radiator ding) in the pic.
That was last summer. Fortunately JB Weld (LOVE that stuff) saved the day and fixed the small hole. (For doubters, it's been well over a thousand miles and no leaks!). Anyway, I decided that since I am obviously stupid I would fix it as others have done so it wouldn't happen again, just drilled holes for some cotter pins - no more e-clips. You can see the fix (and the radiator ding) in the pic.
03-04-2008, 07:57 AM
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Ok, they seem to be working again.
I took off the rubber boot and turned the **** by hand (the arm moved off and away from the a/c condenser). I completely raised the headlights, then turned on the ignition and the headlights went down under power from the motor (headlight switch was in the off position). When they were in the full down position, the arm was no longer against the a/c condenser, but about 1/2" away. I tested the headlights several times and the arm went back to the same position every time.
The question is: why did the motor try to lift the headlights by sending the arm the other way (towards the a/c condenser) and cause the motor to jam it there? All e-clips were in place. Could it be I have a motor going flaky?
Thanks for you guys helping. I am an extreme newbie and just got the car Saturday. This site was recommended by Rixter (Richard at European Perfromance in Cary, NC) He is a 928 owner (x4) and said to go ahead and join rennlist because owning a 928 without doing so would be much harder.
I took off the rubber boot and turned the **** by hand (the arm moved off and away from the a/c condenser). I completely raised the headlights, then turned on the ignition and the headlights went down under power from the motor (headlight switch was in the off position). When they were in the full down position, the arm was no longer against the a/c condenser, but about 1/2" away. I tested the headlights several times and the arm went back to the same position every time.
The question is: why did the motor try to lift the headlights by sending the arm the other way (towards the a/c condenser) and cause the motor to jam it there? All e-clips were in place. Could it be I have a motor going flaky?
Thanks for you guys helping. I am an extreme newbie and just got the car Saturday. This site was recommended by Rixter (Richard at European Perfromance in Cary, NC) He is a 928 owner (x4) and said to go ahead and join rennlist because owning a 928 without doing so would be much harder.
03-04-2008, 07:59 AM
#13
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Late model headlight motors operate differently than earlier. I think one goes back/forth, the other rotates in one direction only. Somebody check me on that. Its been discussed here before.
Many wires in the circuit can be traced to a terminal on Central Electric. That way you can run continuity checks, if needed.
You could have a faulty headlight switch, about $55, motor or motor diodes (one for the up, one for the down / both could be bad and each apparently prevents rotation of pod in the direction noted), or relay box $110 (there are three relays integrated within the little metal box)
There are many, permutations of failure on this one. You will work through it, have faith.
\
I had bad relay, bought brand new one and IT was bad also. Lights on, off while rotation, on again when pods up. But I had rotation both ways. Another new relay fixed the problem. Never could explain it electrically.
Many wires in the circuit can be traced to a terminal on Central Electric. That way you can run continuity checks, if needed.
You could have a faulty headlight switch, about $55, motor or motor diodes (one for the up, one for the down / both could be bad and each apparently prevents rotation of pod in the direction noted), or relay box $110 (there are three relays integrated within the little metal box)
There are many, permutations of failure on this one. You will work through it, have faith.
\
I had bad relay, bought brand new one and IT was bad also. Lights on, off while rotation, on again when pods up. But I had rotation both ways. Another new relay fixed the problem. Never could explain it electrically.
03-04-2008, 12:19 PM
#14
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yes Brian - if your headlight motor is correct for your 928S it will not work in an S4. S4's have different motors and relays.
Pre S4 cars have a motor that always operates in the same direction. It stops halfway thought the full cycle for the up position and then continues the other half to rotate the pods back to the down position. The alighment can be tricky to get the top position correct and to not strain as it goes "over the top".
On S4+'s the motor rorates in one direction for up and then in the reverse direction for down. Alighnment is less critical. The motors are basically the same but the limit switch mechanisms are totally different - so they are quite incompatible between years.
Alan
Pre S4 cars have a motor that always operates in the same direction. It stops halfway thought the full cycle for the up position and then continues the other half to rotate the pods back to the down position. The alighment can be tricky to get the top position correct and to not strain as it goes "over the top".
On S4+'s the motor rorates in one direction for up and then in the reverse direction for down. Alighnment is less critical. The motors are basically the same but the limit switch mechanisms are totally different - so they are quite incompatible between years.
Alan
09-05-2011, 07:28 PM
#15
arm stuck
I'm having the exact same problem.
My headlight arm is stuck against the radiator coil - exactly like yours was. I was able to remove the boot and manually move the lights where I want/need them. I'm guessing it's an issue with the relay or motor. It appears when the headlights try to come up, they come up the back way, which stops at the radiator coil loop. Did you determine the problem/solution?
Mine:
My headlight arm is stuck against the radiator coil - exactly like yours was. I was able to remove the boot and manually move the lights where I want/need them. I'm guessing it's an issue with the relay or motor. It appears when the headlights try to come up, they come up the back way, which stops at the radiator coil loop. Did you determine the problem/solution?
Mine:
Ok, they seem to be working again.
I took off the rubber boot and turned the **** by hand (the arm moved off and away from the a/c condenser). I completely raised the headlights, then turned on the ignition and the headlights went down under power from the motor (headlight switch was in the off position). When they were in the full down position, the arm was no longer against the a/c condenser, but about 1/2" away. I tested the headlights several times and the arm went back to the same position every time.
The question is: why did the motor try to lift the headlights by sending the arm the other way (towards the a/c condenser) and cause the motor to jam it there? All e-clips were in place. Could it be I have a motor going flaky?
I took off the rubber boot and turned the **** by hand (the arm moved off and away from the a/c condenser). I completely raised the headlights, then turned on the ignition and the headlights went down under power from the motor (headlight switch was in the off position). When they were in the full down position, the arm was no longer against the a/c condenser, but about 1/2" away. I tested the headlights several times and the arm went back to the same position every time.
The question is: why did the motor try to lift the headlights by sending the arm the other way (towards the a/c condenser) and cause the motor to jam it there? All e-clips were in place. Could it be I have a motor going flaky?
Last edited by kshipp; 09-05-2011 at 08:27 PM.