Mike Simard

Wait a minute. I thought this thread was going to be about a really fast Chevy Citation with some kind of fancy laser engine.

SteveG

Ron, with regard to surveillance, visual or otherwise: what's your position on controlling agressive, fast, lane-changing, cutting-off, drivers? I realize I'm extending the type of violation beyond where this thread usu starts. I say "usually" because I understand your position, its been made before. You urge everyone to fight them all the time but now you are extending your blanket condemnation to robotic aircraft and I usu agree with you. As one who has been "victimized" myself, I do still understand the need for laws. I'm not a libertarian. I'm glad there is a centerline painted by the gov't with my tax dollars. I'm glad the guy in TX won against the truck cops. I wish I had won against the lying cop AND LYING JUDGE, but I also want dangerous drivers controlled/removed. It is a public road, some people are better drivers than others, but I have to share it. Sociology 101 says the larger the institution the more rules that will be created to make it orderly, to give its members direction for functioning w/i that system. Example: the US military. It has more regs than any other institution in the world, except maybe the fed gov't. It is nice to keep it to a minimum, but there will always be a tradeoff between CHAOS and rigidity.

BC

What Ron has to say can help the rest of us. I am learning, but I am no expert.

I was stopped on a boulevard in San Diego in a 45mph area, alledgedly doing 58.

He used laser, and I knew this immediately since the V1 went off, and then I saw him. I pulled over immediately, and he tried to use this against me in court, as if pulling over when you know you have been stopped is an admission of guilt.

I went to arraignment, and forgot to ask for a court reporter to be present, but I was also the only one at arraignment to say not guilty. People have no idea that they can fight this taxation without representation, or in short - illegal revenue collection.

Where I was stopped is important, as it was not considered a side street, and it was not for over 65. These are different things, and cause the way you argue the case to change. I was charged with VC 22350, which is I think ron said a basic speed law. But you can't be convicted of this if:

The road you were on is a speed trap

And the road is deemed a speed trap if:

They cannot provide documentation to proove the road was studied by engineers to provide a safe speed
They cannot provide true and correct copies of the officer's traning in using the gun, nor of the laser or radar gun's testing itself.

The officer only had copies of the last two, not knowing that he must have certified copies, AND (I learned later from Ron's fellow fighter) the Engineering study was a summary, not the full data on the road that must be used. I did not know this so did not argue it.

The officer testified first, and stated that my car was leaning in the turn, belieing my speed (the s2000 barely leans, but its wierd he thought this was testimony), and that he was only stopping those over 55. He also mentioned that I pulled right over, as if for some reason that says I was guillty.

When it was my turn, I was asked for a statement. I did not have one, but I asked the commissioner if these were the true and correct copies of the certifications according to the custodian of records. She said I had to ask the officer, so I repeated the question, and he said "Yes, these are the copies of them," and then I thought I actually had a chance at this point. Because I knew they had to be certified copies, not just xerox copies taken from his "how to loot the proletariate" binder. The commissioner woman asked him to state whether they were what I asked if they were, and he said "I don't know,"

So then she asked my what I wanted to ask next, so I had to look at my notes from when I talked to ron to come up with "Your honor I now would ask for a dismissal on the grounds that the officer's testitmony is heresay and cannot be used," but she had me repeat that with the facts that the copies were not certified.

She took a big black book out and said that we had to wait for a second, and while looking through the book, she asked me if I had anything else to add. I said no.

The Cop was looking quite pissed. See, we had been moved from two other courtrooms because of othe trials in progress, and I had talked to him like I had never been to court before, asking if being moved was normal. I was really nervous, and did not like how my throat closed up and I had to drink water.

She said then that she had to look up whether my "copies" defense was valid, and that I would have to get the decision in the mail. Then I was asked to leave. Everyone was very quiet. The copy kind stood up and took his cute little map of my road where he had drawn his car in black and my car in silver, with a yellow dotted line connecting us, representing the laser beam. It was very colorful, and had my last name at the top of it.

I just left, and I called Ron right away and gave him all the info I had as well as some other disturbing info I had gleamed from the other trials I watched.

Anyway, its good news. The maximum speed law in CA is totally different, and thats not what I was charged with. If I had been paced, it would have been totally different.

BC

You have them now. But each state is different, but if where you are has a vehicle code that requires the officer to be trained, and the gun to be tested in a certain way, and the road to have a study done, and that all these things need to be present in court at trial as real documents, then there you go.

I know what it feels like to get passed up, and then have nothing to stand on. This time I was unable to file the discover motions properly, but I didn't need them.

BC

I get your point, but the issue is that the speed limit that is set is usually set in a manner to trap a normal motorist, and to make revenue for the city/state. I was not pissed off at all. I simply used the system that they created against them and won. They way they have the system set up, is not really very "justice" oriented. They scare people as they get to court into just paying instead of trying to argue.

One court had the comissioner essentially say "you have no real defense if the ticket says you were over 65, so don't even try,"

How is that for justice? Thats the same as saying "This guy here says you stole his TV and told me, so basically thats what the facts are, so don't try and disagree,"

RngTrtl

I guess the cops in CA are different. I can say as a general statement, that in MS the justice is system is more on the level. usually it is the State Troopers on the interstates that get ya, and you need to be doing 10% better than the posted limit. I still say fight the power and ****!

Randy V

He was or wasn't pissed?


?

AO

Good job Brendan.

I need to research the Michigan laws in this area and be prepared. I'm sure it's just a matter of time before I get tagged... again.

Bret928

So what your saying Brendan is if those "copies" of the data had been "certified" and (as Ron suggested) the full report not just “summaries”, then you'd of probably been dead meat and found guilty?

If that’s the case – I say good for you – you did the right thing in fighting this ticket. But to kind of tag off of what Nicole eluded to early on – regardless of what you think about the reasoning for issuing tickets (revenue or safety or just because cops are mean people <<rollseyes>>), I'm guessing that the police will learn from this (or if there’s enough cases like this) and will make sure that everything is "certified" that the officers bring to court to avoid this kind of “mistake” on their part in the future.

Don't be hatin', I'm just sayin'?

Andre Hedrick

The only way to beat tickets is on technical merit, and showing up for court!

heinrich

Well-stated

BC

Corrected. Thank you Mr. Editor.

BC

Well, 9 out of the 10 times, one of these issues is not done correctly. Infact, I could have used this last year on my other case, since I think those were copies too, but I was too jilted and off balance from the fact that I had filed the motions for discovery at the wrong township.

If all those things had been done correctly, I would have less prepared even than I was, but I spoke to on of Ron's friends, and he said those engineering studies are usually bogus. So I would need a witness then.

BC

As ron said, not many people will do this. I have known guys who just pay the tickets because they work 6 days a week and have no time to go fight the system.

Randy V

Was just trying to make sense of what you were sayin'...