Oil Type Changes and the 928 Motor
12-31-2007, 03:01 PM
#1
Road Warrior
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Oil Type Changes and the 928 Motor
Anyone been keeping up w/the new zincless oils and their impact on 928 cams? seems that it could be the death knell for a lot of pre-89 cars, or cars w/decent cams (GT stuff).
from a Corvette board:
For over a year, oil companies have been marketing American Petroluem Institute (API) approved motor oils blended with greatly reduced levels of zinc dithiophosphate (ZDDP) and other anti-wear additives like manganese and phosphate. This change in formulation was made because such anti-wear additives reduce the effectiveness of catalytic converters used on 1973 and newer cars and eventually damage them. ZDDP is also an air pollutant.
The first oils affected by new regulations calling for the additive levels to be reduced were those bearing the API’s Service Symbol and Certification Mark "SM". These are oils made for the latest generation of automobile engines. However, they are being marketed as if they were safe for ALL car engines. Now, there is much debate over whether this is true.
It has been discovered that the new SM oils provide less boundry lubrication and tend to increase sliding and high-pressure (EP) friction in the engines of older cars. This has led to such problems as the total failure of a new camshaft and a new set of valve lifters in a vintage sports car after just 900 miles of use. The engines most susceptible to such damage seem to be primarily those of the “flat tappet” type made in the 1960s and earlier.
When the parts involved in one failure were returned to the supplier, he went through the trouble of verifying that a molybdenum disulfide camshaft assembly lubricant had been used when the sports car’s valve train was re-assembled and that proper break-in procedures had been followed.
After checking with Delta Camshaft, the parts supplier learned that such failures have been more frequent since the API approved the use of the new oil formulations last year. Another company -- Crane Cams – is even recommending the use of an oil additive during break-in. Comp Cam’s Technical Bulletin no. 225 recommends using both an assembly lube and an oil additive.
Engine rebuilders believe that the reduced levels of zinc, manganese and phosphate are causing very early destruction of camshafts and cam followers. The American Engine Rebuilder's Association (AERA) issued Technical Bulletin No. TB2333 specifically to address this growing problem. Clevite, a major supplier of engine bearings, also says that it is aware of the problem.
Some automakers insist the first oil change is the only time additives are needed. However, those who service and repair older cars remain skeptical. Many recommend using new API CJ-4 diesel-rated oils -- such as Delo or Rotella – in older engines. These oils are generally available at auto stores and gas stations.
Redline Oil Co. says it is well aware of the older-engine problem and still uses the old levels of anti-wear additives in its products. Redline does not produce API-approved oils, so the company doesn’t have to comply to API guidelines. Redline is telling enthusiasts to use its street-formulated synthetic oil. Valvoline also offers an “Off-Road” 20W-50 oil that doesn’t comply to the new API formulations. Castrol, on the other hand, says that only its diesel-rated oils should be used in older cars.
Chevrolet is also aware of the problem. It recommends adding EOS oil fortifier at each oil change, which costs about $12 for an 8-ounce can. For cars that use “engine oil” in their gearboxes, General Motors sells an oil specifically formulated for Manual Gearboxes with Brass Synchronizers. Redline offers a similar product.
A lengthy article on this topic was written by Neil Maken and published in Skinned Knuckles magazine. It was reprinted in the Oct. 5, 2006 issue of Old Cars Weekly. To learn more about Maken’s article visit http://skinnedknuckles.net/pages/index.htm.
from a Corvette board:
For over a year, oil companies have been marketing American Petroluem Institute (API) approved motor oils blended with greatly reduced levels of zinc dithiophosphate (ZDDP) and other anti-wear additives like manganese and phosphate. This change in formulation was made because such anti-wear additives reduce the effectiveness of catalytic converters used on 1973 and newer cars and eventually damage them. ZDDP is also an air pollutant.
The first oils affected by new regulations calling for the additive levels to be reduced were those bearing the API’s Service Symbol and Certification Mark "SM". These are oils made for the latest generation of automobile engines. However, they are being marketed as if they were safe for ALL car engines. Now, there is much debate over whether this is true.
It has been discovered that the new SM oils provide less boundry lubrication and tend to increase sliding and high-pressure (EP) friction in the engines of older cars. This has led to such problems as the total failure of a new camshaft and a new set of valve lifters in a vintage sports car after just 900 miles of use. The engines most susceptible to such damage seem to be primarily those of the “flat tappet” type made in the 1960s and earlier.
When the parts involved in one failure were returned to the supplier, he went through the trouble of verifying that a molybdenum disulfide camshaft assembly lubricant had been used when the sports car’s valve train was re-assembled and that proper break-in procedures had been followed.
After checking with Delta Camshaft, the parts supplier learned that such failures have been more frequent since the API approved the use of the new oil formulations last year. Another company -- Crane Cams – is even recommending the use of an oil additive during break-in. Comp Cam’s Technical Bulletin no. 225 recommends using both an assembly lube and an oil additive.
Engine rebuilders believe that the reduced levels of zinc, manganese and phosphate are causing very early destruction of camshafts and cam followers. The American Engine Rebuilder's Association (AERA) issued Technical Bulletin No. TB2333 specifically to address this growing problem. Clevite, a major supplier of engine bearings, also says that it is aware of the problem.
Some automakers insist the first oil change is the only time additives are needed. However, those who service and repair older cars remain skeptical. Many recommend using new API CJ-4 diesel-rated oils -- such as Delo or Rotella – in older engines. These oils are generally available at auto stores and gas stations.
Redline Oil Co. says it is well aware of the older-engine problem and still uses the old levels of anti-wear additives in its products. Redline does not produce API-approved oils, so the company doesn’t have to comply to API guidelines. Redline is telling enthusiasts to use its street-formulated synthetic oil. Valvoline also offers an “Off-Road” 20W-50 oil that doesn’t comply to the new API formulations. Castrol, on the other hand, says that only its diesel-rated oils should be used in older cars.
Chevrolet is also aware of the problem. It recommends adding EOS oil fortifier at each oil change, which costs about $12 for an 8-ounce can. For cars that use “engine oil” in their gearboxes, General Motors sells an oil specifically formulated for Manual Gearboxes with Brass Synchronizers. Redline offers a similar product.
A lengthy article on this topic was written by Neil Maken and published in Skinned Knuckles magazine. It was reprinted in the Oct. 5, 2006 issue of Old Cars Weekly. To learn more about Maken’s article visit http://skinnedknuckles.net/pages/index.htm.
12-31-2007, 03:13 PM
#3
Vintage and those that care about thier 70s and 80s special cars will simply need to only use boutique oils I guess, unless the normal carriers will add something in that works as well as the ZDDP.
12-31-2007, 03:41 PM
#5
I was told to stop using it, and start using Penzoil Gold or something like that. I will just do redline to amsoil in the new motor for the 928 though.
12-31-2007, 03:52 PM
#6
Road Warrior
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I think I heard Torqo was ok too.. maybe valvoline VR1 racing oil and royal purple also? sure limits the choices... kinda amazing with all the crap I see diesels spewing that anyone would bother w/this given the consequences to so many motors and their owners/consumers.
the 911 guys are having fits over this too. some are attys, and might pursue some kind of action.
the 911 guys are having fits over this too. some are attys, and might pursue some kind of action.
12-31-2007, 04:20 PM
#7
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I have noticed that M1 is sold as SL (but not SM) and SL/SM versions. The SL (but not SM) version should okay. I think it was John V who said SL is fine for our engines and to avoid SM.
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12-31-2007, 04:46 PM
#11
Too much kills the catalytic converters. So it IS being reduced, if not eliminated in certain oils, and is not being replaced with something that works as well.
12-31-2007, 06:15 PM
#12
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. The ZDDP ( and GM 'EOS' additive containing it) are among many lubricant issues discussed in this lengthy thread.Doug starred ( as usual
) in several cameo appearances .... his notes are well worth checking on.
