THE DEVEK RADIATOR
04-28-2003 | 10:22 PM
#32
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,617
Likes: 1
From: California
The DEVEK radiator was introduced in 1995 when others were charging over $800 for a used radiator and $1200-$1400 for a new one. At that time, we thought that there was a better solution, and one that offered additional cooling benefits and lower costs.
DEVEK has a very large number of radiators in service. To date, less than 2% have had any leaks. From that less than 2%%, 1/4 are from improper mounting and the 1/4% are from not following the direction that come with the radiator. And the other half are from unknown manufacturing defects.
As many folks know, we are always developing new products, and are never satisfied with just copying others, and best yet, we continiously keep improving our designs....stroker cranks, head work, sway bars, belly pans, chrome moly brake brackets and brake upgrade kits, etc.
Radiators are no different, so keep posted for the next generation DEVEK radiator, great product at a lower price!
Marc
DEVEK
DEVEK has a very large number of radiators in service. To date, less than 2% have had any leaks. From that less than 2%%, 1/4 are from improper mounting and the 1/4% are from not following the direction that come with the radiator. And the other half are from unknown manufacturing defects.
As many folks know, we are always developing new products, and are never satisfied with just copying others, and best yet, we continiously keep improving our designs....stroker cranks, head work, sway bars, belly pans, chrome moly brake brackets and brake upgrade kits, etc.
Radiators are no different, so keep posted for the next generation DEVEK radiator, great product at a lower price!
Marc
DEVEK
04-28-2003 | 10:35 PM
#33
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From: Silly Valley, CA
Thanks for the update, Marc! Let's hope that DEVEK Radiator Version 2.0 Rev 1 will be the perfect solution.
You can do it! <img border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" title="" src="graemlins/bigok.gif" />
The scary thing: Ed might end up having to like you again... <img border="0" alt="[icon107]" title="" src="graemlins/icon107.gif" />
You can do it! <img border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" title="" src="graemlins/bigok.gif" />
The scary thing: Ed might end up having to like you again... <img border="0" alt="[icon107]" title="" src="graemlins/icon107.gif" />
04-29-2003 | 01:55 AM
#35
Thread Starter
Banned
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 5,248
Likes: 4
From: Ft. Lauderdale FLORIDA
Tonight I had a conversation about my failed radiator with the folks at Devek.
I talked to Susan for quite a while about their racing products and program; It was an interesting talk, and I learned quite a bit about this stuff. I'm not likely to ever seriously modify my '85, but it is fun to fantasize and it's always good to learn.
-One thing that many people don't realize or at least take seriously enough is that when you do something like bore and stroke your engine, or add turbochargers/superchargers, that you are basically incorporating parts and procedures that are purely experimental. What this means is that you are moving away from the safety of things like warrantees and parts designed to last the life of the car, and treading on territory that is unknown. For some people this is fun- again, I sometimes fantasize about tearing the interior out of my car, converting it to a racer with a big engine and raising a bit of hell- or maybe even trying some of that open road racing that they do in Nevada. But I doubt I will ever do it-I use my car as my daily driver, and need the near absolute reliability that that sort of use requires.
And I think it is a testament to Porsche's engineering skill that 18 years after it was built, this car has never stranded me. Knock on wood.
[Its not going to strand me for at least another week; right now the injectors are enjoying a holiday in Michigan at CruzinPerformance.]
I've learned quite a bit about things mechanical and how to deal with problems in general from this machine. For example...there is always a right way and a wrong way to deal with a problem. When I bought my car in the spring of 1999, it had a problem with the passengers' side radiator tank. I had the tank replaced by a local shop and happily roared down the road for the whole summer and fall. And then the other tank began to leak-
ARRGGHH!
Well, from years of driving various VW's with plastic-tank Behr radiators, I decided NOT to mess around with plastic radiators ever again and I purchased Devek's magnificent looking Ron Davis Radiator. I thought my radiator worries were over permanently...
Wrong. Ok...back in January or February "Radiator the Magnificent" began peeing green on the garage floor. I was floored- I tightened all the connections to no avail. The damn thing was leaking. Looking around for a solution, I found myself in a junkyard...two battered sharks in front of me. They had two radiators laying around- I bought the cheaper of the two. It was no good- but it was only $30, so I took it back to the junkyard and bought the other one for $95 dollars more. A pair of end tanks from 928 International arrived. My plan was to use a gm oil cooler inside the Porsche tank attached to the cheap radiator and solve all my problems.
1. The gm oil cooler won't fit- it is slightly too long.
2. The $125 radiator was also bad...and they wouldn't take it back. <img border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" title="" src="graemlins/cussing.gif" />
OK. 928 Int. sells me a good used radiator for $300...only no oil cooler. My new plan was to use a transmission cooler inside the new tank in the good used radiator. Great idea, and it even looked like the fittings would fit. I though I had it fixed this time...
Wrong!
The transmission cooler broke when they tried to remove it from the tank...and what was worse was that my girlfriend was coming to town within a few days, and I needed to use the car while she was here. With no other solution in sight, I did something that I really did not want to do and installed the cooler-less radiator and just mounted the gm oil cooler externally. Probably not very efficient at cooling the oil, but I drove gently and managed to keep the car on the road. That's where I'm at right now. I'm going to get some hoses made and mount some sort of external cooler in the wheel well. I'll post some pix when I get it worked out.
SO. Lets total this up:
Fix tank on original radiator: $180
New Devek radiator: $778
Bad radiator from junkyard: $125
Replacement end tanks: $180
New Used non-cooler radiator: $300
TOTAL: $1563
So how much does a completely new radiator cost? Perhaps $1200? If I had simply done that back in the fall of 1999, I'd have SAVED $363 and a WHOLE LOT of aggravation! Or I could have just changed the other end tank on my original radiator....and saved a LOT more than that.
[And I still have to buy some hoses and an oil cooler...]
So you can see from this that there is indeed a right way and a wrong way to do EVERYTHING. Those of you who have plans to heavily modify your cars should look at these facts and think very carefully about what you are doing! That Devek/Ron Davis Racing radiator sure looks nice, but it just proves that looks and reputation can be COMPLETELY MISLEADING, and that if you try to skrimp and take short cuts using non-Porsche major parts on your car, you will end up taking the long way home [like I did] and spend twice or three times as much in the end. Just say no!
WELL. There are bright spots in every scenario, including this one. The people at Devek [specifically Susan] have been very helpful and understanding on this issue, giving me advice and asking to be kept informed of my progress. I'll still buy things from them, but only things produced by Porsche or an OEM supplier. And Jim Bailey has also been immensely helpful as well, probably pulling out his hair from my frequent calls and [very professionally!] biting his lip whenever I mentioned the all-aluminum radiator~
Well, right now, the plan is to send the radiator back to Ron Davis Racing so that they can inspect it in order to find out why it failed.
What happens then? I suspect nothing. You see, I used a non-Porsche major part that had only a one year warrantee [and none from the manufacturer], so I bet I'm out of luck. From the previous posts, it is obvious that many Behr radiators can last upwards of 18 years. Personally, I feel that a radiator is a 15 year item. Since these cars are driven hard and I installed this radiator myself, lets call it 10 years. And just for yucks and grins and to be excessively fair, lets move it down to 7 years. Now let see...I had that unit in place for 3.25 years, which means that 3.75 years should still be available. This amounts to about 54% of its life left...and since it cost $778...that means that in reality I figure I am owed about $417. I'm not going to even ask them for it- it had a one year f*cking warrantee and I knew it when I bought it, though that still doesn't make what happened to me right.
Again...ARRGGHH!
Well, there is one other bright spot. Obviously, my and a few other people's experiences with these radiators has gotten some attention, and a new all-aluminum radiator is in development not just at Devek but at 928 International as well. I'm glad to see that while I am out some cash, at least this known defective product is soon to be discontinued. Which was my objective with this post to begin with.
Normy!
'85 S2 5 Speed
I talked to Susan for quite a while about their racing products and program; It was an interesting talk, and I learned quite a bit about this stuff. I'm not likely to ever seriously modify my '85, but it is fun to fantasize and it's always good to learn.
-One thing that many people don't realize or at least take seriously enough is that when you do something like bore and stroke your engine, or add turbochargers/superchargers, that you are basically incorporating parts and procedures that are purely experimental. What this means is that you are moving away from the safety of things like warrantees and parts designed to last the life of the car, and treading on territory that is unknown. For some people this is fun- again, I sometimes fantasize about tearing the interior out of my car, converting it to a racer with a big engine and raising a bit of hell- or maybe even trying some of that open road racing that they do in Nevada. But I doubt I will ever do it-I use my car as my daily driver, and need the near absolute reliability that that sort of use requires.
And I think it is a testament to Porsche's engineering skill that 18 years after it was built, this car has never stranded me. Knock on wood.
[Its not going to strand me for at least another week; right now the injectors are enjoying a holiday in Michigan at CruzinPerformance.]
I've learned quite a bit about things mechanical and how to deal with problems in general from this machine. For example...there is always a right way and a wrong way to deal with a problem. When I bought my car in the spring of 1999, it had a problem with the passengers' side radiator tank. I had the tank replaced by a local shop and happily roared down the road for the whole summer and fall. And then the other tank began to leak-
ARRGGHH!
Well, from years of driving various VW's with plastic-tank Behr radiators, I decided NOT to mess around with plastic radiators ever again and I purchased Devek's magnificent looking Ron Davis Radiator. I thought my radiator worries were over permanently...
Wrong. Ok...back in January or February "Radiator the Magnificent" began peeing green on the garage floor. I was floored- I tightened all the connections to no avail. The damn thing was leaking. Looking around for a solution, I found myself in a junkyard...two battered sharks in front of me. They had two radiators laying around- I bought the cheaper of the two. It was no good- but it was only $30, so I took it back to the junkyard and bought the other one for $95 dollars more. A pair of end tanks from 928 International arrived. My plan was to use a gm oil cooler inside the Porsche tank attached to the cheap radiator and solve all my problems.
1. The gm oil cooler won't fit- it is slightly too long.
2. The $125 radiator was also bad...and they wouldn't take it back. <img border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" title="" src="graemlins/cussing.gif" />
OK. 928 Int. sells me a good used radiator for $300...only no oil cooler. My new plan was to use a transmission cooler inside the new tank in the good used radiator. Great idea, and it even looked like the fittings would fit. I though I had it fixed this time...
Wrong!
The transmission cooler broke when they tried to remove it from the tank...and what was worse was that my girlfriend was coming to town within a few days, and I needed to use the car while she was here. With no other solution in sight, I did something that I really did not want to do and installed the cooler-less radiator and just mounted the gm oil cooler externally. Probably not very efficient at cooling the oil, but I drove gently and managed to keep the car on the road. That's where I'm at right now. I'm going to get some hoses made and mount some sort of external cooler in the wheel well. I'll post some pix when I get it worked out.
SO. Lets total this up:
Fix tank on original radiator: $180
New Devek radiator: $778
Bad radiator from junkyard: $125
Replacement end tanks: $180
New Used non-cooler radiator: $300
TOTAL: $1563
So how much does a completely new radiator cost? Perhaps $1200? If I had simply done that back in the fall of 1999, I'd have SAVED $363 and a WHOLE LOT of aggravation! Or I could have just changed the other end tank on my original radiator....and saved a LOT more than that.
[And I still have to buy some hoses and an oil cooler...]
So you can see from this that there is indeed a right way and a wrong way to do EVERYTHING. Those of you who have plans to heavily modify your cars should look at these facts and think very carefully about what you are doing! That Devek/Ron Davis Racing radiator sure looks nice, but it just proves that looks and reputation can be COMPLETELY MISLEADING, and that if you try to skrimp and take short cuts using non-Porsche major parts on your car, you will end up taking the long way home [like I did] and spend twice or three times as much in the end. Just say no!
WELL. There are bright spots in every scenario, including this one. The people at Devek [specifically Susan] have been very helpful and understanding on this issue, giving me advice and asking to be kept informed of my progress. I'll still buy things from them, but only things produced by Porsche or an OEM supplier. And Jim Bailey has also been immensely helpful as well, probably pulling out his hair from my frequent calls and [very professionally!] biting his lip whenever I mentioned the all-aluminum radiator~
Well, right now, the plan is to send the radiator back to Ron Davis Racing so that they can inspect it in order to find out why it failed.
What happens then? I suspect nothing. You see, I used a non-Porsche major part that had only a one year warrantee [and none from the manufacturer], so I bet I'm out of luck. From the previous posts, it is obvious that many Behr radiators can last upwards of 18 years. Personally, I feel that a radiator is a 15 year item. Since these cars are driven hard and I installed this radiator myself, lets call it 10 years. And just for yucks and grins and to be excessively fair, lets move it down to 7 years. Now let see...I had that unit in place for 3.25 years, which means that 3.75 years should still be available. This amounts to about 54% of its life left...and since it cost $778...that means that in reality I figure I am owed about $417. I'm not going to even ask them for it- it had a one year f*cking warrantee and I knew it when I bought it, though that still doesn't make what happened to me right.
Again...ARRGGHH!
Well, there is one other bright spot. Obviously, my and a few other people's experiences with these radiators has gotten some attention, and a new all-aluminum radiator is in development not just at Devek but at 928 International as well. I'm glad to see that while I am out some cash, at least this known defective product is soon to be discontinued. Which was my objective with this post to begin with.
Normy!
'85 S2 5 Speed
04-29-2003 | 03:33 AM
#36
Burning Brakes
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 870
Likes: 0
From: Airlie Beach, Australia
Hi,
along the same lines I read in a DEVEK advert for a 75C thermostat, something that I cannot come to grips with. It says "..and allows refilling of the cylinder heads with coolant before the first thermostat cycle, thus avoiding cylinder head stress on initial start."
Can somebody explain this ????
I think I must be losing the plot - well I'm 64
Regards
along the same lines I read in a DEVEK advert for a 75C thermostat, something that I cannot come to grips with. It says "..and allows refilling of the cylinder heads with coolant before the first thermostat cycle, thus avoiding cylinder head stress on initial start."
Can somebody explain this ????
I think I must be losing the plot - well I'm 64
Regards
04-29-2003 | 08:29 AM
#37
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 778
Likes: 1
From: Herndon, VA
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by BrendanCampion:
<strong>Ed never liked anyone. He's taught to be that way because he works for the INS.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Brendon:
Since we've never met, I curious to know why you think you know me, and what and who I like or don't like? Second, who ever told you I work for the INS?
I recommend you refrain from using personal attacks, particularly since you don't know me from Adam!
<strong>Ed never liked anyone. He's taught to be that way because he works for the INS.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Brendon:
Since we've never met, I curious to know why you think you know me, and what and who I like or don't like? Second, who ever told you I work for the INS?
I recommend you refrain from using personal attacks, particularly since you don't know me from Adam!
04-29-2003 | 12:34 PM
#39
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 6,644
Likes: 0
No one works for the INS since it was broken up into three parts consolidated with other agencies and placed under the Department of Homeland Security's Bureau of Citizenship and Immigration Services (BCIS), Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) and Bureau of Customs and Border Protection (CBP).
Perhaps Brendan had Ed confused with me.
My thoughts. If you are going to race your 928, maybe it's better to have an Aluminium race design radiator. However, remember that the companies that developed and build them do so for sale to professional race teams that generally replace them after every couple races anyway. These same companies will manufacture them for companies who sell to people who want that racing technology in what might normally be a daily driver. I prefer to have a dependable, suitable and rebuildable radiator in my daily drivers that are only tracked occasionally.
JE
928Sx4 used to be 5 (3 83' and 2 86')
All 5 still have the original Behr radiators with mileage ranges between 100K and 160K. None have overheated while I have owned them.
Perhaps Brendan had Ed confused with me.
My thoughts. If you are going to race your 928, maybe it's better to have an Aluminium race design radiator. However, remember that the companies that developed and build them do so for sale to professional race teams that generally replace them after every couple races anyway. These same companies will manufacture them for companies who sell to people who want that racing technology in what might normally be a daily driver. I prefer to have a dependable, suitable and rebuildable radiator in my daily drivers that are only tracked occasionally.
JE
928Sx4 used to be 5 (3 83' and 2 86')
All 5 still have the original Behr radiators with mileage ranges between 100K and 160K. None have overheated while I have owned them.
04-29-2003 | 01:12 PM
#42
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 778
Likes: 1
From: Herndon, VA
If Brendon's post was meant to be a joke, then why didn't he use a smiley face or other such indicator as a disclaimer.
I don't mind an occasional friendly jab, but that post didn't look or sound like it was all that friendly. YMMV.
I don't mind an occasional friendly jab, but that post didn't look or sound like it was all that friendly. YMMV.
04-29-2003 | 01:34 PM
#43
Burning Brakes
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,208
Likes: 2
From: Las Vegas, Nevada
I usually read the post carefully and look at who sent it before making a determination of it being a jab or not.
LIGHTEN UP ED!
Signed
The 8 year old............
<img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" />
disclaimer
LIGHTEN UP ED!
Signed
The 8 year old............
<img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" />
disclaimer
04-29-2003 | 01:45 PM
#44
928 Engine Re-Re-Rebuild Specialist
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 7,970
Likes: 28
From: Brighton, MI
Ed:
Relax! You're making me wonder if you're a postal worker! <img src="http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/ar15.gif" alt=" - " />
ditto on the disclaimer <img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" />
Relax! You're making me wonder if you're a postal worker! <img src="http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/ar15.gif" alt=" - " />
ditto on the disclaimer <img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" />
04-29-2003 | 02:06 PM
#45
Advanced
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
From: Southern California
normy,
Perhaps a $2 can of Bar's Leak could have fixed your Devek radiator.
Some people don't like this type of "bandaid" but I hear GM is putting it in their vehicles at the factory (now the jokes begin, I'll be the first: "they're putting it in because their vehicles are so crappy"). Ok, well it supposedly lubricates the water pump seal as well.
When I was a poor high school student, I had a car with a radiator full of leaks and couldn't afford a new radiator, so I took it to a radiator repair shop to see if it could be repaired. When they pressure tested it, there were litterally dozens of tiny little leaks everywhere. I put it back in the car with a tube of alumaseal and drove it for months until I could afford the new radiator.
Perhaps a $2 can of Bar's Leak could have fixed your Devek radiator.
Some people don't like this type of "bandaid" but I hear GM is putting it in their vehicles at the factory (now the jokes begin, I'll be the first: "they're putting it in because their vehicles are so crappy"). Ok, well it supposedly lubricates the water pump seal as well.
When I was a poor high school student, I had a car with a radiator full of leaks and couldn't afford a new radiator, so I took it to a radiator repair shop to see if it could be repaired. When they pressure tested it, there were litterally dozens of tiny little leaks everywhere. I put it back in the car with a tube of alumaseal and drove it for months until I could afford the new radiator.