Anyone seen this?
06-02-2002, 06:09 PM
#1
928 Engine Re-Re-Rebuild Specialist
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Anyone seen this?
It seems the 944 crowd has been sharing their workshop manuals in electronic format online. Legalities aside (cough cough, ahem), anyone know of a source for the 928 stuff?
<a href="http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=70230" target="_blank">944 Workshop Manuals</a>
<a href="http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=70230" target="_blank">944 Workshop Manuals</a>
06-02-2002, 06:11 PM
#2
928 Engine Re-Re-Rebuild Specialist
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I should add that I've seen this a lot on the Rennlist board as well. Seems that they are put online for downloading for limited amounts of time until the host's bandwith limits are exceeded, but many folks appear to have firewall problems.
06-03-2002, 12:58 AM
#3
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My personal, and humble, opinion:
I wouldn't down play the "legalities."
[quote]Legalities aside (cough cough, ahem), <hr></blockquote>
After years of school, writing, being published, and working in the software industry, I have developed a deep appreciation for the concepts of "intellectual property" and copyrights.
It's one thing to copy a page or two to help with an immediate problem until you can buy a set of manuals. It is quite another to digitally steal a copyrighted $400 item. (even if it is impossible to get Porsche to print enough manuals to meet the demand)
All I am saying is we all should think about the individuals who worked to create, and make their livelihoods from, these items and respect their efforts by properly purchasing these materials.
I’ll get off my soap box now…
<img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" />
I wouldn't down play the "legalities."
[quote]Legalities aside (cough cough, ahem), <hr></blockquote>
After years of school, writing, being published, and working in the software industry, I have developed a deep appreciation for the concepts of "intellectual property" and copyrights.
It's one thing to copy a page or two to help with an immediate problem until you can buy a set of manuals. It is quite another to digitally steal a copyrighted $400 item. (even if it is impossible to get Porsche to print enough manuals to meet the demand)
All I am saying is we all should think about the individuals who worked to create, and make their livelihoods from, these items and respect their efforts by properly purchasing these materials.
I’ll get off my soap box now…
<img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" />
06-03-2002, 01:20 AM
#4
928 Engine Re-Re-Rebuild Specialist
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Scott:
That's why I thought it was interesting that the 944 crowd was so open about it. My toungue was firmly in cheek about the inquiry.
<img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" />
That's why I thought it was interesting that the 944 crowd was so open about it. My toungue was firmly in cheek about the inquiry.
<img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" />
06-03-2002, 01:26 AM
#5
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[quote]Originally posted by Scott Turnbull:
[QB]My personal, and humble, opinion:
I wouldn't down play the "legalities."<hr></blockquote>
if they refuse to print a manual for a product they all but refuse to support, i say F 'em. i'm going to copy it and i'll give copies to anyone who asked for it.
yes, i own a set.
[quote]
All I am saying is we all should think about the individuals who worked to create, and make their livelihoods from, these items and respect their efforts by properly purchasing these materials.<hr></blockquote>
this isn't software, it's a manual written for a porsche product, written by people who work for porsche. it's not "intellectual property", they get a paycheck and move on. they don't get residuals for writing for their employer.
by that thinking, i should get paid everytime a new 737 lands, since i tested the thrust reversers before it left the factory. they're using them so i should get paid for it.
[QB]My personal, and humble, opinion:
I wouldn't down play the "legalities."<hr></blockquote>
if they refuse to print a manual for a product they all but refuse to support, i say F 'em. i'm going to copy it and i'll give copies to anyone who asked for it.
yes, i own a set.
[quote]
All I am saying is we all should think about the individuals who worked to create, and make their livelihoods from, these items and respect their efforts by properly purchasing these materials.<hr></blockquote>
this isn't software, it's a manual written for a porsche product, written by people who work for porsche. it's not "intellectual property", they get a paycheck and move on. they don't get residuals for writing for their employer.
by that thinking, i should get paid everytime a new 737 lands, since i tested the thrust reversers before it left the factory. they're using them so i should get paid for it.
06-03-2002, 01:41 AM
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[quote]by that thinking, i should get paid everytime a new 737 lands, since i tested the thrust reversers before it left the factory. they're using them so i should get paid for it.
<hr></blockquote>
Apples to Oranges. I am pretty sure you do not have copyright on your thrust reverser testing.
However, being a frequent flyer I greatly appreciate your excellent work!
[quote]this isn't software, it's a manual written for a porsche product, written by people who work for porsche. it's not "intellectual property", they get a paycheck and move on. they don't get residuals for writing for their employer. <hr></blockquote>
Most software writers who work for large companies only get paid once for their work on a given product and then move on to the next product just like you outlined above. Does that mean we should never pay for software either?
<hr></blockquote>
Apples to Oranges. I am pretty sure you do not have copyright on your thrust reverser testing.
However, being a frequent flyer I greatly appreciate your excellent work!
[quote]this isn't software, it's a manual written for a porsche product, written by people who work for porsche. it's not "intellectual property", they get a paycheck and move on. they don't get residuals for writing for their employer. <hr></blockquote>
Most software writers who work for large companies only get paid once for their work on a given product and then move on to the next product just like you outlined above. Does that mean we should never pay for software either?
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06-03-2002, 09:36 AM
#9
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Okay. Okay! I have been resisting posting anyting about this here publicly, but I have a fully scanned version of the gray manuals. Not the crappy scanned version of the fische. All 9 volumes of the gray set fit on to one CD, all in pdf format - including the wiring diagrams for all model years. I'm not looking to make any money off of it - just recoup. I'm offering the CD for $20 - includes postage. As a special note though - THIS SHOULD ONLY BE USED AS A BACKUP FOR YOUR OWN SET OF MANUALS. <img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" />
If you're interested, I'd be happy to send you a sample of the quality (it rocks!). Email me directly: andrewolson@directvinternet.com
82 928 5 Speed
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
If you're interested, I'd be happy to send you a sample of the quality (it rocks!). Email me directly: andrewolson@directvinternet.com
82 928 5 Speed
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
06-03-2002, 11:33 AM
#10
Burning Brakes
Copyright law is quite clear. Making more than one backup copy of the Service Manual, or buying a copy of it when you don't already own an original, is against the law. Whether or not you agree with the law is not the issue. The law says you're stealing. If you defend the right to steal something, then you're as bad as the the thief. <img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" />
Let's face some facts. The 928 was never a cheap car. (You may have bought yours for near bargain-basement prices, but for that you should consider yourself lucky to find such a great car for so little. Thank Porsche for its dismal maketing of the 928.)
The systems on a 928 are rather complex and extensive. Even with 9 volumes, not all that makes a 928 "tick" is in the full set. If you just were to pay a copy center $0.25 per page, the cost of a copy would be nearly as much as the amount asked by Porsche for an original. Although you may disagree (thus my YMMV comment) the cost for the full set of manuals is probably still a bargain at $400. (Please note that none of the Big Three can keep them in stock at that price.)
You had the desire and funds to buy (argueably) the best GT ever made. Coming up with another $400 for a full set of manuals should not be a problem. If it is, you bought the wrong car. YMMV.
Let's face some facts. The 928 was never a cheap car. (You may have bought yours for near bargain-basement prices, but for that you should consider yourself lucky to find such a great car for so little. Thank Porsche for its dismal maketing of the 928.)
The systems on a 928 are rather complex and extensive. Even with 9 volumes, not all that makes a 928 "tick" is in the full set. If you just were to pay a copy center $0.25 per page, the cost of a copy would be nearly as much as the amount asked by Porsche for an original. Although you may disagree (thus my YMMV comment) the cost for the full set of manuals is probably still a bargain at $400. (Please note that none of the Big Three can keep them in stock at that price.)
You had the desire and funds to buy (argueably) the best GT ever made. Coming up with another $400 for a full set of manuals should not be a problem. If it is, you bought the wrong car. YMMV.
06-03-2002, 03:30 PM
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I agree with Ed. Stealing is stealing. That is why I say you must have a set of manuals. I did this so that I would:
1. Have a backup.
2. have a version that's transportable.
3. Have a copy I don;t have to worry about.
It took me the better part of a week to scan these all in. Since I went throught this pain and missery, I thought I'd spare the rest of you from it. Making a photo copy would cost as much if not more than the actual manuals. So Ed's right in that you should just buy the manuls. With that said, if you screw them up & if you are allowed to make one legal copy, there's no reason you should have to buy it again. At $20, I think this is the most economical piece of insurance you can have for a $400 set of manuals. But if you're getting it to avoid the $400 then you do have the wrong car. Sell it to me and buy a Miata!
1. Have a backup.
2. have a version that's transportable.
3. Have a copy I don;t have to worry about.
It took me the better part of a week to scan these all in. Since I went throught this pain and missery, I thought I'd spare the rest of you from it. Making a photo copy would cost as much if not more than the actual manuals. So Ed's right in that you should just buy the manuls. With that said, if you screw them up & if you are allowed to make one legal copy, there's no reason you should have to buy it again. At $20, I think this is the most economical piece of insurance you can have for a $400 set of manuals. But if you're getting it to avoid the $400 then you do have the wrong car. Sell it to me and buy a Miata!
06-03-2002, 05:25 PM
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I am not even going to bother saying how I get almost all of my music and software. I hate the RIAA so i refuse to pay for music. Those people have millions of dollars, and then some, and then alot more. Do think it would actually matter if a few hundred people had some free copied manuals? With a new porsche selling around 100k? I dont think so. Porsche probably sells them for about 120-200dollars for the manuals. And no I dont need to sell my car because I can't afford the manuals right now. Knowing my luck I am probably the youngest person on this board.
Well my sensless ranting is done now.
Well my sensless ranting is done now.
06-03-2002, 07:10 PM
#13
Burning Brakes
Dear Lobis:
If you are downloading music without paying for it, then you're a thief, pure and simple. Intillectual property is still property, and taking it without the owner's permission is stealing. If this concept is too hard to understand, then you need a lesson in morality and ethics. If your parents are still alive, ask them if it's OK to take something that's not yours.
Let me put it another way. How would you react to someone stealing your property? It does not matter that your property is something tangible, or something you thought of and had copyrighted. It also doesn't matter how rich or poor you are. Stealing from a rich person is still stealing. Just consider this part of your lesson in morality and ethics and be glad that your not in front of a judge using your pretty lame excuses to justify your actions.
Lastly, you only need to follow one basic rule - Treat others as you would have them treat you.
If you are downloading music without paying for it, then you're a thief, pure and simple. Intillectual property is still property, and taking it without the owner's permission is stealing. If this concept is too hard to understand, then you need a lesson in morality and ethics. If your parents are still alive, ask them if it's OK to take something that's not yours.
Let me put it another way. How would you react to someone stealing your property? It does not matter that your property is something tangible, or something you thought of and had copyrighted. It also doesn't matter how rich or poor you are. Stealing from a rich person is still stealing. Just consider this part of your lesson in morality and ethics and be glad that your not in front of a judge using your pretty lame excuses to justify your actions.
Lastly, you only need to follow one basic rule - Treat others as you would have them treat you.
06-03-2002, 07:10 PM
#14
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Having created IP, I have 5 US patents and 3 EPO design patents, I am very sensitive to copyright infringement, and think that the Napsters of the world should be put out of business. Oh, wait a minute, they are out of business!
If you do not like the paying for the music, go make some of your own, or just do not buy it.
I still do not see anywhere in our constitution the right to use other peoples property without their permission, nor do I see any text stating that they cannot charge for what they create.
Ethics.....where have they gone.
If you do not like the paying for the music, go make some of your own, or just do not buy it.
I still do not see anywhere in our constitution the right to use other peoples property without their permission, nor do I see any text stating that they cannot charge for what they create.
Ethics.....where have they gone.
06-03-2002, 07:30 PM
#15
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Good points Marc. What is 'IP' that you have patents for?
Looks like you are still having problems getting your sig link to act as an active URL to your website. Let me know if you need further assistance on that.
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