Mark

FINALLY - the definitive answer!!!

kary4th

I seek permission from no one but my wife.

Formula94lt1

Well I just purchased an 80 5-spd euro with the peice of the block that designated the engine broken off...???????????? how the hell that happened I do not have a fathomable clue. Is there any other way to tell if the car is an "S" other than the code on the engine block?

FlyingDog

Compression test could give you an indication. ~10:1 for Euro/ROW S versus ~8.2:1 for 80 US. Multiply by 18-20 (20 is standard for new engines, 18 seems to work out right for our engines) and that should be near your warm compression numbers.

Also, assuming the block hasn't been swapped....
Larger intake runners
K-jet CIS instead of L-jet injection
larger throttle body
big valve heads (you can see the valves if you take an intake runner off)

I'd be more concerned with how somebody smashed the block plate off than whether or not the engine is truly an S.

Formula94lt1

Oh I am, I just thought I would ask for another form of identification, lol. I thought maybe they smashed it off because they did swap it and didnt want it to be readily identified as a something not supposed ot be there... Ill see, its certainly a euro car but if its not an "S" how do I tell if its a swapped in US motor or the basic Euro engine?

BTW, it is a CIS fuel injection car, but I dont think that would diferentiate a standard euro from a euro s, Ill have to check the runners and compare them to the ones off the us car intake I have... assuming the standared euro runners are the same as the us model...

Jim bailey - 928 International

Or the engine might be from a stolen car... Because so many 911 cars were stolen and many "used " engines bought and sold. Porsche made all the engine numbers available to law enforcement so they could check the numbers during normal traffic stops... In California , Porsche engines with no numbers are assumed to be stolen ! The local auto theft squad will periodically conduct "inspections" where 10-12 officers decend on a shop or Junkyard and the check all the numbers those engines with ground off missing numbers get confiscated (they attempt to raise numbers using acid ) but if they can not determine then they CRUSH the engine. And Yes they have been here and no we had no problems perhaps because we submit all the paperwork which is legally required to the DMV for all the cars we take apart. Mark did find one stolen car that way where the window vin had been MOVED , he also bought some parts from a guy who LATER tried to tell his insurance company that the car was stolen ! Some people get very creative

karl ruiter

I think your best bet is to look at the casting numbers on the heads:
There are basically five things you are after: heads, cams, intake runners, throttle body, 4.7l high compression lower ends. You cannot always trust the engine number. I bought a euro S motor that had a non S engine number. I have verified that the all the above items are euro S parts but the engine number says it is a 4.5l non S. My theory is that the number was ground off and re-stamped when the car was federalized, but who knows? There are so may possibilites of parts being swapped around that it is hard to know unless you check the casting number on the specific parts. Pretty much all you can see without doing disassembly is the intake runners and the head casting numbers so (if you really want to be sure) I would start there.

Quote:
As said before the engine is the reason most want a Euro S. Check the block M28/11,12 or 21,22, heads (104.348) and even TB (110.99) and intake runners. (110.295-298). If it matches top to bottom go for it.

Vilhuer

Having seen one S4 block renumber attempt to make it look like GTS engine I'd say good quality forgery is much harder than it sounds.

FlyingDog

Even if the block was swapped (hopefully legally) the engine could still be functionally a Euro/ROW S if the correct pistons were used.

Vilhuer

True but unlikely as bore increase from 95mm to 97mm costs more than buing usable correct style block.

Jim bailey - 928 International

We have over the last nearly 20 years sold USA engines or short blocks to people with Euro S cars who " just want to get it running" same with camshafts instead of Euro cams they might swap in much easier to find USA cams after they break one . The Euro CIS 4.7 used a ignition rotor with the RPM cutout. That rotor was hard to get and much more expensive (now NLA) so the engine with a US rotor has no rev limiter! hold the gas pedal down and it would go to 7,500 or so...

RicerSchnitzzle

The Euro 4.5 also has the rev limiting rotor. Based on it's VIN I think it's a standard Euro not an S. The 13th digit is normaly a "4" for "S" models, this one is a "2", seems most non S cars had a "2" or "0".

If the block number is missing, only way to tell the block size would be to pull the head and measure. As mentioned above, any bottom end can be made to work with an early top end fairly easily. No telling what bottom is on there.

You could also borrow someone's GTech. Assuming the car is runnning fairly well, there is a sizable difference in HP that the Gtech will catch. On a non "S" Euro expect Gtech numbers around 180HP, on a true "S" expect around 250HP.

Vilhuer

IIRR 4.5L ROW should always be "0". "2" is US model which is obviously always 4.5L before '83 MY.

RicerSchnitzzle

I was thinking the same thing but was not 100% sure. Just know the S is a 4. I almost bought a shark before the one I did get that had different vins on the body and window. Vin plate near the hood catch was removed. Obviously stolen at one point. The title and Vin matched a 1980, the body and engine matched a 1985.

Could be his has a little "history" as he does have the side markers and a couple other Euro tell tale signs.

Charley B

Actually, all the more funny, 'cause he made it up.