Home DIY Alignment Master Thread
09-10-2007, 02:14 PM
#61
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Bakersfield, Ca.
Posts: 869
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Man thats great stuff!! Thanks again guys. I found the 1/4 inch refrence, and see the error of my ways there. AND I will wait a couple of days for it to settle. I lifted as well to do a spot check of the suspension.
Oops, didn't take that into consideration. Guess i'll go buy a laser level and get busy.
Some folks say you can see the toe-out or toe-in when it's off, but it would take a seriously out-of-toe condition for you to see it with a naked eye. The front fender line draws your eye crooked
09-10-2007, 04:54 PM
#62
Under the Lift
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Thread Starter
Yeah, don't use the fender lines for reference. You have to get down and look at the front wheels from the front and the rear. Without some kind of real measuring technique, like dr. bob describes or I mentioned in post #43, you are wild-guessing.
09-10-2007, 08:15 PM
#63
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Bakersfield, Ca.
Posts: 869
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey Drbob, here's a thought. Why not do the alignment clinic AT Sharktoberfest? Most everyone should already have that day set aside, and it's only 'bout a month away (plus i work saturday's, and it will be tough to get 2 days off 
). Just a thought.
). Just a thought.
09-11-2007, 01:05 AM
#64
Chronic Tool Dropper
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
I don't know Dan & Mark's program schedule or what facilities are available. A few events there have included the shop next to 928 Int'l vacant, and it was used for lunch and for showing race videos, and hosting some guest lectures. We need to have cars level at least side to side so camber adjustments are accurate, and that means we do all the checking in one fixed spot; we can'y carry lasers and levels from car to car in the lot.
And remember that we are there to socialize and visit, not spend time working on cars. It would be more than appropriate to select one car and go through a demo and explanation of the process, but a clinic there for many cars is just not practical.
Even with a clinic in Glendale, we already have more volunteer victims than we will be able to adjust in one session. It's hardly fair (whatever that is...) to check lots of cars and only adjust a few because of time limitations. At the same time, it's hardly fair to have someone like yourself drive all te way from BakersOven and find out you didn't draw one of the "full treatment" straws.
I'm due to travel the week following Sharktobrfest, and right now it's not firm on whether Sunday will be the actual travel day. My schedule is slave to maintenance efforts at power plant around the country, and I generally travel to install and commission my work in the spring and fall only. It's a somewhat narrow window of opportunity, and it too often conflicts with Sharktoberfest and other 929-centric activities.
And remember that we are there to socialize and visit, not spend time working on cars. It would be more than appropriate to select one car and go through a demo and explanation of the process, but a clinic there for many cars is just not practical.
Even with a clinic in Glendale, we already have more volunteer victims than we will be able to adjust in one session. It's hardly fair (whatever that is...) to check lots of cars and only adjust a few because of time limitations. At the same time, it's hardly fair to have someone like yourself drive all te way from BakersOven and find out you didn't draw one of the "full treatment" straws.
I'm due to travel the week following Sharktobrfest, and right now it's not firm on whether Sunday will be the actual travel day. My schedule is slave to maintenance efforts at power plant around the country, and I generally travel to install and commission my work in the spring and fall only. It's a somewhat narrow window of opportunity, and it too often conflicts with Sharktoberfest and other 929-centric activities.
09-11-2007, 02:37 AM
#65
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Bakersfield, Ca.
Posts: 869
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
from BakersOven
Ok, point well made. It was just a thought. See you in Glendale.
Who is running the MSN chat room you mentioned. It said I needed permission to post there?
09-11-2007, 11:50 AM
#66
Chronic Tool Dropper
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
You'll need a .NET passport, a simple (yeah right...) Microsoft sign-up. On the left side of the group screen there's an option to "Join Now". Follow that process and you'll be good to go. ---BE SURE TO RECORD YOUR USERNAME AND PASSWORD--. MSN has a habit of forgetting you, security software will trash your settings cookies, etc., you dog will eat your access privs. Group membership used to be subject to an approval process, where the managers would approve applicants before they could post. I received notices for a while but no longer see them, so one of us needs to check in and bless your access.
09-13-2007, 06:26 PM
#67
Chronic Tool Dropper
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Pre-alignmnet checklist
Ok, back to work here...
I may be able to do a one or two-car clinic this Saturday. Goal is to shoot a buch of pictures of the process, so make sure your car is photogenic if you are interested.
---
Prior to any alignment, theer are some things to do and to check.
1) Check for worn parts. Common wearing parts are the tie rods (inner and outer ends) and ball joints, but the list can also include upper inner control shaft bushings if the car has a lot of miles on it. The steering rack itself gets worn, symptoms same as worn inner tie rods.
2) Check for loose parts. Front wheel bearings top the list of things that wear slowly and almost unnoticed. If you can feel play in the bearing, it's too loose. Most front bearings deserve a clean and repack with new wheel seals if they are loose enough to notice. Bearings and seals are common pieces so they can be easily replaced if at all worn or damaged. Buy good quality bearings too. The cheap made-in-southeast-Asia parts don't seem to be quite as good as the OEM parts.
3) Check and adjust your ride height. The cars will sag with age, and a car that's too low is tough to keep aligned properly, especially if the shocks are tired.
4) Check and adjust your tire pressures.
5) Drive the car after you let it back down off the jacks and stands. 30-50 miles of serious thrashing, 100 touring miles may be better. The car needs to be fully settled to get good settings.
Anything beyond the tire pressures needs attention 50-100 miles before you get here. We can only check theme here --after-- the alignment is adjusted, and by then it's too late. You'd need to go rip around for an hour or two to get things back to alignable state after the car is down from the jacks.
PM me if you are interested in this Saturday morning as either a victim or an observer. I'm at the 2 and the 134 freeways in Glendale, Ca.
I may be able to do a one or two-car clinic this Saturday. Goal is to shoot a buch of pictures of the process, so make sure your car is photogenic if you are interested.
---
Prior to any alignment, theer are some things to do and to check.
1) Check for worn parts. Common wearing parts are the tie rods (inner and outer ends) and ball joints, but the list can also include upper inner control shaft bushings if the car has a lot of miles on it. The steering rack itself gets worn, symptoms same as worn inner tie rods.
2) Check for loose parts. Front wheel bearings top the list of things that wear slowly and almost unnoticed. If you can feel play in the bearing, it's too loose. Most front bearings deserve a clean and repack with new wheel seals if they are loose enough to notice. Bearings and seals are common pieces so they can be easily replaced if at all worn or damaged. Buy good quality bearings too. The cheap made-in-southeast-Asia parts don't seem to be quite as good as the OEM parts.
3) Check and adjust your ride height. The cars will sag with age, and a car that's too low is tough to keep aligned properly, especially if the shocks are tired.
4) Check and adjust your tire pressures.
5) Drive the car after you let it back down off the jacks and stands. 30-50 miles of serious thrashing, 100 touring miles may be better. The car needs to be fully settled to get good settings.
Anything beyond the tire pressures needs attention 50-100 miles before you get here. We can only check theme here --after-- the alignment is adjusted, and by then it's too late. You'd need to go rip around for an hour or two to get things back to alignable state after the car is down from the jacks.
PM me if you are interested in this Saturday morning as either a victim or an observer. I'm at the 2 and the 134 freeways in Glendale, Ca.
09-14-2007, 09:20 AM
#68
Drifting
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: an unnatural suburban habitat
Posts: 2,902
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Earl is going to disown me, but here is how mine is right now:
I have maxed out the front camber and done a string toe in check to be slightly toed in (very slight).
The threads are even side to side, with hypercoil 600# front and 400# rear springs. Normal ride height, not as low as many set theirs.
Stability is great, feel is great, and no tire squeal during even hard turn in and cornering. No complaints here.
I have maxed out the front camber and done a string toe in check to be slightly toed in (very slight).
The threads are even side to side, with hypercoil 600# front and 400# rear springs. Normal ride height, not as low as many set theirs.
Stability is great, feel is great, and no tire squeal during even hard turn in and cornering. No complaints here.
09-14-2007, 01:39 PM
#69
Chronic Tool Dropper
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Earl is going to disown me, but here is how mine is right now:
I have maxed out the front camber and done a string toe in check to be slightly toed in (very slight).
The threads are even side to side, with hypercoil 600# front and 400# rear springs. Normal ride height, not as low as many set theirs.
Stability is great, feel is great, and no tire squeal during even hard turn in and cornering. No complaints here.
I have maxed out the front camber and done a string toe in check to be slightly toed in (very slight).
The threads are even side to side, with hypercoil 600# front and 400# rear springs. Normal ride height, not as low as many set theirs.
Stability is great, feel is great, and no tire squeal during even hard turn in and cornering. No complaints here.
Using the string method is for toe is OK, so long as you can accurately read the measurements and distances from the string to the wheel faces. When you are talking about 1/16" --total-- differences, the accuracy of the string and the scale become super critical. Maybe my eyes aren't that good, plus that's about a pencil-line width. Good deal if you can get good repeatable results. In the end, if you are happy with the way the car drives and handles, and your tire wear is acceptable, you've done the job correctly.
09-14-2007, 04:24 PM
#70
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Ok, back to work here...
I may be able to do a one or two-car clinic this Saturday. Goal is to shoot a buch of pictures of the process, so make sure your car is photogenic if you are interested.
---
Prior to any alignment, theer are some things to do and to check.
1) Check for worn parts. Common wearing parts are the tie rods (inner and outer ends) and ball joints, but the list can also include upper inner control shaft bushings if the car has a lot of miles on it. The steering rack itself gets worn, symptoms same as worn inner tie rods.
2) Check for loose parts. Front wheel bearings top the list of things that wear slowly and almost unnoticed. If you can feel play in the bearing, it's too loose. Most front bearings deserve a clean and repack with new wheel seals if they are loose enough to notice. Bearings and seals are common pieces so they can be easily replaced if at all worn or damaged. Buy good quality bearings too. The cheap made-in-southeast-Asia parts don't seem to be quite as good as the OEM parts.
3) Check and adjust your ride height. The cars will sag with age, and a car that's too low is tough to keep aligned properly, especially if the shocks are tired.
4) Check and adjust your tire pressures.
5) Drive the car after you let it back down off the jacks and stands. 30-50 miles of serious thrashing, 100 touring miles may be better. The car needs to be fully settled to get good settings.
Anything beyond the tire pressures needs attention 50-100 miles before you get here. We can only check theme here --after-- the alignment is adjusted, and by then it's too late. You'd need to go rip around for an hour or two to get things back to alignable state after the car is down from the jacks.
PM me if you are interested in this Saturday morning as either a victim or an observer. I'm at the 2 and the 134 freeways in Glendale, Ca.
I may be able to do a one or two-car clinic this Saturday. Goal is to shoot a buch of pictures of the process, so make sure your car is photogenic if you are interested.
---
Prior to any alignment, theer are some things to do and to check.
1) Check for worn parts. Common wearing parts are the tie rods (inner and outer ends) and ball joints, but the list can also include upper inner control shaft bushings if the car has a lot of miles on it. The steering rack itself gets worn, symptoms same as worn inner tie rods.
2) Check for loose parts. Front wheel bearings top the list of things that wear slowly and almost unnoticed. If you can feel play in the bearing, it's too loose. Most front bearings deserve a clean and repack with new wheel seals if they are loose enough to notice. Bearings and seals are common pieces so they can be easily replaced if at all worn or damaged. Buy good quality bearings too. The cheap made-in-southeast-Asia parts don't seem to be quite as good as the OEM parts.
3) Check and adjust your ride height. The cars will sag with age, and a car that's too low is tough to keep aligned properly, especially if the shocks are tired.
4) Check and adjust your tire pressures.
5) Drive the car after you let it back down off the jacks and stands. 30-50 miles of serious thrashing, 100 touring miles may be better. The car needs to be fully settled to get good settings.
Anything beyond the tire pressures needs attention 50-100 miles before you get here. We can only check theme here --after-- the alignment is adjusted, and by then it's too late. You'd need to go rip around for an hour or two to get things back to alignable state after the car is down from the jacks.
PM me if you are interested in this Saturday morning as either a victim or an observer. I'm at the 2 and the 134 freeways in Glendale, Ca.
09-14-2007, 06:29 PM
#71
Chronic Tool Dropper
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Make sure you drive it enough to settle it again before it gets here. Peter undoubtedly wanted to look at the compressor from underneath, so it's likely he raised the car a bit while he worked on it. Come on over by way of Ojai and it should be back down.
09-14-2007, 07:31 PM
#72
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
09-15-2007, 12:18 AM
#73
Chronic Tool Dropper
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Got her home yet? I spent some minutes on the phone with Peter again around dinnertime, and it didn't sound instantly promising. Inquiring minds want to know!
---
Got the office window open, and the breeze is just right, blowing the marching band music up the hill from the game a couple miles away. Too far to pick out the players with the telescope on a summer evening in SoCal though.
See you in the morning.
09-15-2007, 07:56 PM
#74
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Dr. Bob,
Thanks for the alignment clinic. Rolf confirmed that his alignment guy did a good job, and I found a piece of my car that was missing ($6.00)
Thanks for the alignment clinic. Rolf confirmed that his alignment guy did a good job, and I found a piece of my car that was missing ($6.00)
09-15-2007, 08:19 PM
#75
Chronic Tool Dropper
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
We had an interesting clinic here this morning. Rolf had his car aligned Tuesday at a local place, and had driven it enough before and after that to make sure the car was settled adequately. We stuck the DIY laser fixtures on the car to see what differences we might see. Results were that the RF camber was alittle light; Rolf mentioned that tire pressure was off a little on that side, so we brought all the tires up to his target numbers. Problem solved.
Then on to the toe-in measurement. The guests confirmed to me verbally that they have forgotten a lot of the math required, so I explained what we were doing while setting up the fixtures. Our goal is to bring the procedure into the reality that most folks would need a bit of a trig tutorial if they had to do the math from scratch. We did the measuring on the floor with masking-tape markers, a carpenter's square, and a tape measure. There were good questions about the numbers and why we see what we see, and those will be incorporated into the instruction FAQ section. I think the method is pretty good, and we'll have another mini-clinic soon with new 'victims' to prove the value of the improved manual and instruction.
Oh yeah, the results...
Rolf's toe setting was a total of 20 minutes of toe in, or 1/3 of a degree. This fits nicely with the factory spec of 15 minutes +5 minutes allowable. I'm very comfortable that he has good settings.
-----
We spent some time looking at a few other things. Rolf's car suffered from Magic Blower Syndrome, so he had a new resistor pack installed. New pack is high blower speed all the time. So we tested the wiring from the switch with the ohm meter, the internal paths in the resistor pack with the ohm meter, and found that the thermal switch in the pack is closed all the time. That causes the fan to run at full speed whenever the bottom slider is in anything other than the full-left everything-off position. It's magic blower sysndrome but all the time.
Larry's car was missing the shield over the jumpstart terminal, and I still had the one I bought fro Tim Delarm's car several years ago now, so that was Larry's big $6 investment. Both car got a little strip of electrical tape along the fenderedge where the shield sits, so it won't mar the paint there. I forgot to take pictures of this simple mod but will sometime later.
So it was a good fun morning visit! Next clinic one will be Sept 29 or in early October, before Sharktoberfest, to get some novice hands familiar with the camber and toe-in adjustment process de dr bob.
Then on to the toe-in measurement. The guests confirmed to me verbally that they have forgotten a lot of the math required, so I explained what we were doing while setting up the fixtures. Our goal is to bring the procedure into the reality that most folks would need a bit of a trig tutorial if they had to do the math from scratch. We did the measuring on the floor with masking-tape markers, a carpenter's square, and a tape measure. There were good questions about the numbers and why we see what we see, and those will be incorporated into the instruction FAQ section. I think the method is pretty good, and we'll have another mini-clinic soon with new 'victims' to prove the value of the improved manual and instruction.
Oh yeah, the results...
Rolf's toe setting was a total of 20 minutes of toe in, or 1/3 of a degree. This fits nicely with the factory spec of 15 minutes +5 minutes allowable. I'm very comfortable that he has good settings.
-----
We spent some time looking at a few other things. Rolf's car suffered from Magic Blower Syndrome, so he had a new resistor pack installed. New pack is high blower speed all the time. So we tested the wiring from the switch with the ohm meter, the internal paths in the resistor pack with the ohm meter, and found that the thermal switch in the pack is closed all the time. That causes the fan to run at full speed whenever the bottom slider is in anything other than the full-left everything-off position. It's magic blower sysndrome but all the time.
Larry's car was missing the shield over the jumpstart terminal, and I still had the one I bought fro Tim Delarm's car several years ago now, so that was Larry's big $6 investment. Both car got a little strip of electrical tape along the fenderedge where the shield sits, so it won't mar the paint there. I forgot to take pictures of this simple mod but will sometime later.
So it was a good fun morning visit! Next clinic one will be Sept 29 or in early October, before Sharktoberfest, to get some novice hands familiar with the camber and toe-in adjustment process de dr bob.