My Flexplate - Crank Endplay Check Pictorial
08-12-2007, 03:03 PM
#61
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Rog,
You are a believer and user of loctite to stop driveshaft migration. I am not for reasons already discussed and which I firmly believe in from the research conducted. I noticed you mentioned the heating part, but how about the banging part associated with disengaging the driveshaft from the clamp? It's been a bit different for other people who have tried this and things did not go so smoothly.
As far as costs, the cost of our front flexplate clamp is still $380.00. This is much cheaper than your aluminized steel X pipe you sell for 928ers, which if one were resourceful, could have made at their local muffler shop cheaper using their stock cat section. Please do not cast stones about costs.
The clamp is a bargian for what one gets and for what it can potentially stop from happening. It will last the life of the car and is easily unclamped when needed. We have sold 18 clamps worldwide, a fact I'm personally very proud of and getting ready to order another (third!) set from the manufacturer. All by word of mouth really through the Rennlist.
I am certain you have done a lot of good for many 928 owners and are trying to build your business. We too are trying to do the same and to develop other high quality products for others who are as crazy for the 928 as we. We look forward to becoming a Rennlist sponsor as soon as our new products are through testing and can be made available to the public.
Good luck with your business,
Constantine
[QUOTE=ROG100]
1) On all my Auto cars and similar customer cars I use Loctite (penetrating) on the splines and Loctite on the bolt. So far no movement at all on the cars I have done and had back for checking. I highly recommend this method. Even better is Constantines new clamp but the cost is very high when compared to $15 for the Loctite. I also had the opportunity to watch a TT being removed from one of my cars where the splines were Loctited in place. Heat was applied to the splines and the shaft parted company very easily. So the Loctite is not such a NO NO for future disassembly.
You are a believer and user of loctite to stop driveshaft migration. I am not for reasons already discussed and which I firmly believe in from the research conducted. I noticed you mentioned the heating part, but how about the banging part associated with disengaging the driveshaft from the clamp? It's been a bit different for other people who have tried this and things did not go so smoothly.
As far as costs, the cost of our front flexplate clamp is still $380.00. This is much cheaper than your aluminized steel X pipe you sell for 928ers, which if one were resourceful, could have made at their local muffler shop cheaper using their stock cat section. Please do not cast stones about costs.
The clamp is a bargian for what one gets and for what it can potentially stop from happening. It will last the life of the car and is easily unclamped when needed. We have sold 18 clamps worldwide, a fact I'm personally very proud of and getting ready to order another (third!) set from the manufacturer. All by word of mouth really through the Rennlist.
I am certain you have done a lot of good for many 928 owners and are trying to build your business. We too are trying to do the same and to develop other high quality products for others who are as crazy for the 928 as we. We look forward to becoming a Rennlist sponsor as soon as our new products are through testing and can be made available to the public.
Good luck with your business,
Constantine
[QUOTE=ROG100]
1) On all my Auto cars and similar customer cars I use Loctite (penetrating) on the splines and Loctite on the bolt. So far no movement at all on the cars I have done and had back for checking. I highly recommend this method. Even better is Constantines new clamp but the cost is very high when compared to $15 for the Loctite. I also had the opportunity to watch a TT being removed from one of my cars where the splines were Loctited in place. Heat was applied to the splines and the shaft parted company very easily. So the Loctite is not such a NO NO for future disassembly.
08-12-2007, 03:27 PM
#62
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Constantine,
Don't be so touchy - I said and I quote "Even better is Constantine's new clamp".
I think it is the best out there and will always say so. And having seen it first hand the engineering is excellent.
On a cost basis though there are other alternatives available to the 928 community, the cheapest being Bills writeup - do it and check it for movement every year. I personally prefer the method I have adopted (originally Earle G & Gary K) but was concerned about the Loctite relative to future removal. I just wanted to state, that for me personally, it was not such a big issue when I finally had to have it dealt with.
I fail to understand your cost comparison v an X pipe. I do not think Dave Lomas, who spent thousands of $ and hours of time to perfect his rendition, would agree with your negative comment.
I do not see any of my local muffler shops being able to emulate an X pipe of that caliber.
That's the wonderful concept of this forum - we can all come up with theory's and ideas however individuals will make there own decisions based on the information found. We vote with our Dollars.
Maybe I need to buy one of your clamps and try it out - please put me down for one and PM me payment details. I will put it on my daily driver GTS.
Best regards,
Roger
Don't be so touchy - I said and I quote "Even better is Constantine's new clamp".
I think it is the best out there and will always say so. And having seen it first hand the engineering is excellent.
On a cost basis though there are other alternatives available to the 928 community, the cheapest being Bills writeup - do it and check it for movement every year. I personally prefer the method I have adopted (originally Earle G & Gary K) but was concerned about the Loctite relative to future removal. I just wanted to state, that for me personally, it was not such a big issue when I finally had to have it dealt with.
I fail to understand your cost comparison v an X pipe. I do not think Dave Lomas, who spent thousands of $ and hours of time to perfect his rendition, would agree with your negative comment.
I do not see any of my local muffler shops being able to emulate an X pipe of that caliber.
That's the wonderful concept of this forum - we can all come up with theory's and ideas however individuals will make there own decisions based on the information found. We vote with our Dollars.
Maybe I need to buy one of your clamps and try it out - please put me down for one and PM me payment details. I will put it on my daily driver GTS.
Best regards,
Roger
__________________
Does it have the "Do It Yourself" manual transmission, or the superior "Fully Equipped by Porsche" Automatic Transmission?
George Layton March 2014
928 Owners are ".....a secret sect of quietly assured Porsche pragmatists who in near anonymity appreciate the prodigious, easy going prowess of the 928."
Does it have the "Do It Yourself" manual transmission, or the superior "Fully Equipped by Porsche" Automatic Transmission?
George Layton March 2014928 Owners are ".....a secret sect of quietly assured Porsche pragmatists who in near anonymity appreciate the prodigious, easy going prowess of the 928."
08-12-2007, 05:08 PM
#63
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Originally Posted by bwoyat
Great writeup on this topic. Will be getting under the car tomorrow to perform the procedure. One silly question? Is there a torque value for the bell housing bolts when buttoning up? Can't seem to find it anywhere.
Brent
89 S4
Brent
89 S4
08-12-2007, 05:18 PM
#64
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The Loctite method, Constantine's superclamp and the use of a shimmed -85MY shaft assume that the only cause for loading of the flexplate is slipping of the clamp. Granted, slipping of the clamp probably is the pimary issue, if not the only issue, sans improper transmission installation, as Porsche seems to blame. So, checking for clamp movement by painting the exposed shaft splines behind the clamp and observing for exposure of any unpainted area is good. However, it would be good to include a check of the flexplate for flatness when examining the clamp per chance that torque converter blooming/bearing wear or some other factor affecting the shaft geometry is contributing.
Last edited by Bill Ball; 08-12-2007 at 05:44 PM.
08-12-2007, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by ROG100
Constantine,
Don't be so touchy - I said and I quote "Even better is Constantine's new clamp".
I think it is the best out there and will always say so. And having seen it first hand the engineering is excellent.
Thank you for the compliments. It was your other statement about cost that caused my "touchiness."
On a cost basis though there are other alternatives available to the 928 community, the cheapest being Bills writeup - do it and check it for movement every year. I personally prefer the method I have adopted (originally Earle G & Gary K) but was concerned about the Loctite relative to future removal. I just wanted to state, that for me personally, it was not such a big issue when I finally had to have it dealt with.
I fail to understand your cost comparison v an X pipe. I do not think Dave Lomas, who spent thousands of $ and hours of time to perfect his rendition, would agree with your negative comment.
I do not see any of my local muffler shops being able to emulate an X pipe of that caliber.
Bingo! You've stated my point exactly. This clamp did not suddenly materialize out of thin air. Lots of time, thousands of $ and testing went into it before we felt comfortable offering it for sale to others. We are just covering costs at the moment and purposefully kept our price at $380.00 to make them available to 928ers. So comparing the clamp to a tube of loctite, which, although cheaper, is an inferior way to stop the problem IMO, is what I was trying to illustrate with the given example. By your comments it seems to have worked. No negativity meant.
That's the wonderful concept of this forum - we can all come up with theory's and ideas however individuals will make there own decisions based on the information found. We vote with our Dollars.
Maybe I need to buy one of your clamps and try it out - please put me down for one and PM me payment details. I will put it on my daily driver GTS.
Best regards,
Roger
Don't be so touchy - I said and I quote "Even better is Constantine's new clamp".
I think it is the best out there and will always say so. And having seen it first hand the engineering is excellent.
Thank you for the compliments. It was your other statement about cost that caused my "touchiness."
On a cost basis though there are other alternatives available to the 928 community, the cheapest being Bills writeup - do it and check it for movement every year. I personally prefer the method I have adopted (originally Earle G & Gary K) but was concerned about the Loctite relative to future removal. I just wanted to state, that for me personally, it was not such a big issue when I finally had to have it dealt with.
I fail to understand your cost comparison v an X pipe. I do not think Dave Lomas, who spent thousands of $ and hours of time to perfect his rendition, would agree with your negative comment.
I do not see any of my local muffler shops being able to emulate an X pipe of that caliber.
Bingo! You've stated my point exactly. This clamp did not suddenly materialize out of thin air. Lots of time, thousands of $ and testing went into it before we felt comfortable offering it for sale to others. We are just covering costs at the moment and purposefully kept our price at $380.00 to make them available to 928ers. So comparing the clamp to a tube of loctite, which, although cheaper, is an inferior way to stop the problem IMO, is what I was trying to illustrate with the given example. By your comments it seems to have worked. No negativity meant.
That's the wonderful concept of this forum - we can all come up with theory's and ideas however individuals will make there own decisions based on the information found. We vote with our Dollars.
Maybe I need to buy one of your clamps and try it out - please put me down for one and PM me payment details. I will put it on my daily driver GTS.
Best regards,
Roger
Have a great day,
Constantine
08-12-2007, 06:45 PM
#66
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IIRC what Vilhuer said about this...
In '85 the factory stopped installing the clip and shims, but the shaft is still machined for them up until it was changed to 28mm.
5. When the TT needs rebuilding or replacing, use a | MY '83 ('84 ROW) - '87, 25mm shaft | rebuilt TT with front end shims and shim retainer.
In '85 the factory stopped installing the clip and shims, but the shaft is still machined for them up until it was changed to 28mm.
Originally Posted by Bill Ball
5. When the TT needs rebuiildig or replacing, use an -85MY rebuilt TT with front end shims and shim retainer.
08-12-2007, 07:01 PM
#67
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Right, Ken. 85 was the official stop date for the shims but the groove was still present for a while. So, was 88 the first year for 28mm? I wasn't sure what year exactly.
08-13-2007, 12:00 AM
#69
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All they ever said after bagging the shims was that adjustment was no longer necessary. This is before the 28mm shaft. They have never admitted to any problem whatsoever with the flexplate preload and thrustbearing failure except as caused by improper transmission installation, yet we have seen numerous problems here. You and others have felt it necessary to devise other means to prevent excessive flexplate preload, a problem which Porsche thinks we don't have. The early shaft with shims and retainers seems to work well too.
Last edited by Bill Ball; 08-13-2007 at 12:39 AM.
08-13-2007, 05:57 AM
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Hi Bill,
The shims, circlip, and bearing were stopped with no real reason given, as you've said. What we do know is Porsche did send out one of their driveline engineers to give presentations to Porsche mechanics in the field on how to properly set the needed clearances after a torque tube change. This meant there were problems being seen in this area by Porsche of 928 cars after being serviced. One has to wonder what those problems were, TBF'd engines is our informed guess since they also issued a bullentin about improperly installed transmissions causing TBF not being a warranty item.
In our discussions with this same engineer, it was learned the larger 28 mm driveshaft was made to handle the increased torque of the 32 valve engines. It is our opinion that when Porsche increased the size of the driveshaft they should have also beefed up the clamp at the front flexplate.
As we've said before, if the circlip, washer, bearing is to be used as a means of stopping driveshaft pullout, the 928 Manual section for setting the correct distances and preload between the flywheel and flexplate must be followed to a T. Yes it can be done and it should work, but it was stopped by Porsche for a reason. I recall that you've done this as a means of stopping the pullout.
Constantine
The shims, circlip, and bearing were stopped with no real reason given, as you've said. What we do know is Porsche did send out one of their driveline engineers to give presentations to Porsche mechanics in the field on how to properly set the needed clearances after a torque tube change. This meant there were problems being seen in this area by Porsche of 928 cars after being serviced. One has to wonder what those problems were, TBF'd engines is our informed guess since they also issued a bullentin about improperly installed transmissions causing TBF not being a warranty item.
In our discussions with this same engineer, it was learned the larger 28 mm driveshaft was made to handle the increased torque of the 32 valve engines. It is our opinion that when Porsche increased the size of the driveshaft they should have also beefed up the clamp at the front flexplate.
As we've said before, if the circlip, washer, bearing is to be used as a means of stopping driveshaft pullout, the 928 Manual section for setting the correct distances and preload between the flywheel and flexplate must be followed to a T. Yes it can be done and it should work, but it was stopped by Porsche for a reason. I recall that you've done this as a means of stopping the pullout.
Constantine
08-13-2007, 11:15 AM
#71
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Bill & Constantine,
Please enlighten me more about the correct proceedure for the setup of a new TT install.
I am in the middle of one at the moment and do not see any requirement for shims between the TT and Transmission or TT and front flexplate. Am I missing something or was that appropriate to the earlier pre 88 cars with the smaller diameter shaft and circlip. Of to read the WSM.
I am working on an 89 Auto.
Roger
Please enlighten me more about the correct proceedure for the setup of a new TT install.
I am in the middle of one at the moment and do not see any requirement for shims between the TT and Transmission or TT and front flexplate. Am I missing something or was that appropriate to the earlier pre 88 cars with the smaller diameter shaft and circlip. Of to read the WSM.
I am working on an 89 Auto.
Roger
09-20-2007, 09:45 PM
#72
Bill;
I'm setting up to check the crank end-play on my car for the first time. Great, great write up. This is one more thing that is straight-forward enough only because someone took time to document their process. You had mentioned that some cut the rear cover plate bolts off with a sawsall. Any downsides to this if the bolts are not to be re-inserted? Is the process to loosen the bolts enough that some shaft is exposed for the sawsall to bite into?
Thanks
Mike
I'm setting up to check the crank end-play on my car for the first time. Great, great write up. This is one more thing that is straight-forward enough only because someone took time to document their process. You had mentioned that some cut the rear cover plate bolts off with a sawsall. Any downsides to this if the bolts are not to be re-inserted? Is the process to loosen the bolts enough that some shaft is exposed for the sawsall to bite into?
Thanks
Mike
09-20-2007, 10:09 PM
#73
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I don't see why you'd purposely cut the bolts off. I dropped my exhaust to access the bolts. I snapped two of the exhaust bolts, but no big deal. I put new ones in with anti-seize. Some leave the rear bolts off after removing them.
If you cut the bolts off, IMO you've devalued your car for no reason.
If you cut the bolts off, IMO you've devalued your car for no reason.
09-20-2007, 10:28 PM
#74
09-20-2007, 10:37 PM
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It's been a while since I was down there, but if I remember right, there are maybe two cover bolts that are too long to remove completely without dropping the exhaust. They're too long to be able to unscrew them far enough to get them all the way out. Unscrew them as far as possible, then cut the top portion off. You'll then be able to remove the part that's left and still partially screwed in. When it's time to put the cover back on, just use new bolts in those locations which are a little bit shorter than the original ones were. They're still plenty long enough, but short enough so that you can get them in and out in the future.