4.5L sleeved to 106mm?
04-03-2003, 09:50 PM
#1
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4.5L sleeved to 106mm?
I have been made aware that a 4.5 block may not be able to be bored and sleeved to 106mm.
What is the different between a 4.5 and a 5.0 block? Are the bore walls just thicker? Or are the spaced differently? I would not assume so, as the crank is the same, right? Was more material simply bored from the 4.5 to make it a 4.7 and 5.0? Or were other structural changes made?
I ask this because I wish to get my 4.5 sleeved to a 106, and use everything else again, rods, crank, heads (custom pistons) - but if I can't, then I may as well just get a 5.0 for the same work. But I WOULD like to keep the cost down.
Brendan
What is the different between a 4.5 and a 5.0 block? Are the bore walls just thicker? Or are the spaced differently? I would not assume so, as the crank is the same, right? Was more material simply bored from the 4.5 to make it a 4.7 and 5.0? Or were other structural changes made?
I ask this because I wish to get my 4.5 sleeved to a 106, and use everything else again, rods, crank, heads (custom pistons) - but if I can't, then I may as well just get a 5.0 for the same work. But I WOULD like to keep the cost down.
Brendan
04-04-2003, 02:41 AM
#2
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This is a question for Marc at Devek, but I was told that 4.7 or 4.5 liter engines can only be taken to 6.0 liters...the 6.4's with the bigger bores are only for the 4 valve blocks.
N!
'85 S2 5 Speed
N!
'85 S2 5 Speed
04-04-2003, 03:56 AM
#3
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by BrendanCampion:
<strong>I have been made aware that a 4.5 block may not be able to be bored and sleeved to 106mm...
Brendan</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">106! my God man, a 106mm bore and a 78.9mm stroke. Is that what you are saying? I thought at 95, 97 or 100/78.9 our V8's were already "very" over square. Well, you'll have lots of leeway to deshroud valves.
As far as overboring, I've been told 95 to 97 is pretty safe. 97 to 100 is pretty safe. But the bottom line is to physically measure the cylinder wall thickness to make sure you have enough material left after overboring. So, I'd say you measure before buying. Or you ship it off to your engine builder and leave it to him.
How much wall thickness is safe? Well, that's like asking some people to give up there livelyhoods. I don't expect you to get an answer.
<strong>I have been made aware that a 4.5 block may not be able to be bored and sleeved to 106mm...
Brendan</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">106! my God man, a 106mm bore and a 78.9mm stroke. Is that what you are saying? I thought at 95, 97 or 100/78.9 our V8's were already "very" over square. Well, you'll have lots of leeway to deshroud valves.
As far as overboring, I've been told 95 to 97 is pretty safe. 97 to 100 is pretty safe. But the bottom line is to physically measure the cylinder wall thickness to make sure you have enough material left after overboring. So, I'd say you measure before buying. Or you ship it off to your engine builder and leave it to him.
How much wall thickness is safe? Well, that's like asking some people to give up there livelyhoods. I don't expect you to get an answer.
04-04-2003, 10:46 PM
#4
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Well, yes, I do expect that there will be a thin wall, but that is what the sleeve is for.
The 78.9 stroke was kept until the GTS was stroked. It's "cheaper" and it gives me what I want - set it and forget it engine that will have "good" power. I don't want to change too much on this car. Well, jeez, a 4spd auto grafted to an 81 is bad enough, with S4 brakes when I upgrade my 89. Open up the current intake, MAY do some computer changes, but that is it. I need to pull the engine soon anyway....
The 78.9 stroke was kept until the GTS was stroked. It's "cheaper" and it gives me what I want - set it and forget it engine that will have "good" power. I don't want to change too much on this car. Well, jeez, a 4spd auto grafted to an 81 is bad enough, with S4 brakes when I upgrade my 89. Open up the current intake, MAY do some computer changes, but that is it. I need to pull the engine soon anyway....
04-04-2003, 10:53 PM
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So you are not stroking it?
Just increasing bore?
Is this cheaper?
What would the displacement be?
And will it just give you more of the same kind of power we now have?
And if you are pulling the engine, and doing all this machine work, why not stroke it, etc?
Just increasing bore?
Is this cheaper?
What would the displacement be?
And will it just give you more of the same kind of power we now have?
And if you are pulling the engine, and doing all this machine work, why not stroke it, etc?
04-05-2003, 12:06 AM
#6
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BC (My initials are BC, this could get confusing) -
I want more bore. That will be less than 2500 for block work, hopefully much less. Pistons - well, any sort I wish, in any compression. - Maybe 1000?
ONE crank is 3000. Then I need 8 chevy rods. AND custom pistons. AND THEN I have to figure out about the coatings.
This is my wife's daily driver. I am pulling the engine, and was thinking some stuff through. It not going to be as serious as my 89, in which I will also be boring, but also getting different RODS and pistons. AND supercharging.
Stroking is something I had always planned on, but I am now leaning towards big bore+boost and a 7500rpm redline.
I have torque. By Boring, I will not lose any. On my 89, which I will also bore, I will have BOOST. Which will give me enough torque.
I am really concerned about the rod ratio on a stroked engine that will get boost (89), and on the 81, I just want a reasonable increase in power, without boost, and without a 3000 dollar crank.
I will of course get the crank DRILLED, but I see no reason for more stroke. A bored 928 engine will have plenty of torque at 2k to rip a TT apart. I want insane power from 3000-7500.
I want more bore. That will be less than 2500 for block work, hopefully much less. Pistons - well, any sort I wish, in any compression. - Maybe 1000?
ONE crank is 3000. Then I need 8 chevy rods. AND custom pistons. AND THEN I have to figure out about the coatings.
This is my wife's daily driver. I am pulling the engine, and was thinking some stuff through. It not going to be as serious as my 89, in which I will also be boring, but also getting different RODS and pistons. AND supercharging.
Stroking is something I had always planned on, but I am now leaning towards big bore+boost and a 7500rpm redline.
I have torque. By Boring, I will not lose any. On my 89, which I will also bore, I will have BOOST. Which will give me enough torque.
I am really concerned about the rod ratio on a stroked engine that will get boost (89), and on the 81, I just want a reasonable increase in power, without boost, and without a 3000 dollar crank.
I will of course get the crank DRILLED, but I see no reason for more stroke. A bored 928 engine will have plenty of torque at 2k to rip a TT apart. I want insane power from 3000-7500.
04-06-2003, 03:46 PM
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So anybody know about this?
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04-06-2003, 03:47 PM
#8
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Looks like once again, I hit uncharted territory.
Not hard in a 928.
Not hard in a 928.
04-06-2003, 05:01 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by BrendanCampion:
<strong>Looks like once again, I hit uncharted territory.
Not hard in a 928.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">BC, I don't think you're hitting uncharted "928" territory, just maybe something that this doesn't sound like its done much, not in a 928 or anything. Sleeves need some material to insert into. I don't think there will be much left of the cylinder tower (if anything) after you hog it out enough to press in a cast iron sleeve with an INSIDE diameter of 106mm!
As far as the stroke to rod ratio, even with a stroker, you're in good shape unless you want 9,000 rpm or so.
If you want to turbocharge or supercharge, I'd leave the bore alone.
<strong>Looks like once again, I hit uncharted territory.
Not hard in a 928.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">BC, I don't think you're hitting uncharted "928" territory, just maybe something that this doesn't sound like its done much, not in a 928 or anything. Sleeves need some material to insert into. I don't think there will be much left of the cylinder tower (if anything) after you hog it out enough to press in a cast iron sleeve with an INSIDE diameter of 106mm!
As far as the stroke to rod ratio, even with a stroker, you're in good shape unless you want 9,000 rpm or so.
If you want to turbocharge or supercharge, I'd leave the bore alone.
04-06-2003, 09:00 PM
#11
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The 4.5L has some kind of difference, but it could not be much, as the same crank is used in a 5.0 I believe. So bore spacing is not used. If the OUTSIDE diameter of the tower is different, then fine, but if its the same? I could just use my 4.5L block.
Dan - The sleeve of which I speak is not cast iron. It is Chromoly, and is used currently in 2.5L 944 engines that get big bores.
I want 7500rpm. This plan is for my 81 auto, which is my wife's car. I want to keep the coast down, and I would like to ge more power without the use of SCing as I will be with my 89.
Dan - The sleeve of which I speak is not cast iron. It is Chromoly, and is used currently in 2.5L 944 engines that get big bores.
I want 7500rpm. This plan is for my 81 auto, which is my wife's car. I want to keep the coast down, and I would like to ge more power without the use of SCing as I will be with my 89.
04-06-2003, 10:24 PM
#12
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I do not know about uncharted thing...but Bob DeVore used steel sleeves in the 4.200"+ bore range over 15 years ago in early blocks...they just cracked alot! I have a steel sleeved block that can be bored to that plus some.......might use it for a race only engine someday.
Good luck.
Marc
DEVEK
Good luck.
Marc
DEVEK
04-07-2003, 01:48 PM
#13
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FYI...im not a traitor or anything HAHA but in the last issue of 5.0Mustang they had an article on an engine they sleeved and the sleeving process. Actually its pretty good little mag for any ,stang owners out there. Plus you get a an idea of the power numbers some of the newer cars make. Just dont go looking for the price of engine parts, strokers etc etc, it will make you cry! <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
04-07-2003, 01:53 PM
#14
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I considered sleeving my 4.5 liter block....no way...too much risk in finding a shop I believed I could trust. Some of the sleeve manufacturers only hold +/- 0.005"....that is crap by todays standards.
For a race engine, sleeving is probably alright, but for a street car, I would not risk it. maybe if the deck was thicker it would be alright.
You won't need that much displacement if you run manifold pressure. 5.0 liters and 1 bar of boost, should make 600 HP, more than you'll ever need.
For a race engine, sleeving is probably alright, but for a street car, I would not risk it. maybe if the deck was thicker it would be alright.
You won't need that much displacement if you run manifold pressure. 5.0 liters and 1 bar of boost, should make 600 HP, more than you'll ever need.
04-08-2003, 12:36 AM
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Wow. Okay. Now we are getting somewhere.
The sleeving process I would be using is pretty solid. It does not use the normal sleeving tactics, but actually puts a sleeve in compression with the original bore and the head when cranked down. It has been used in 500hp 944 turbos, as well as 14:1CR NA 944 engines.
Marc/John - I have found a shop that uses 106mm chromoly sleeves. They are tapered, and it is a place I can trust. I have learned that the OD of the 4.5L block bore tower is around 109. That makes 106 not even remotely feasible. The sleeves do come in smaller sizes however, and this is a "cheap" way for me to get a higher compression motor with a bit more zip.
Sleeving, in the old way, is what everybody is so scared of. This, I believe, is different.
John - Manifold pressure is obviously an option for me, but this is for my wife's car. I need to be able to set it and forget it. I don't want to have to change the electronics and wiring, though, as that is what I have to do on my 89. I just want more power out of the 81. If when I take the 4.5L and compression test it the correct way, and find good compression, then I may just pull it and reseal it, and put a cheap SC on. BUt if its not as tight as a 250k mile engine could be, then I need these other options.
John - Did you find out if (IF) your engine was okay, taht you could just rering it when apart? Or did people say that was a nono?
The sleeving process I would be using is pretty solid. It does not use the normal sleeving tactics, but actually puts a sleeve in compression with the original bore and the head when cranked down. It has been used in 500hp 944 turbos, as well as 14:1CR NA 944 engines.
Marc/John - I have found a shop that uses 106mm chromoly sleeves. They are tapered, and it is a place I can trust. I have learned that the OD of the 4.5L block bore tower is around 109. That makes 106 not even remotely feasible. The sleeves do come in smaller sizes however, and this is a "cheap" way for me to get a higher compression motor with a bit more zip.
Sleeving, in the old way, is what everybody is so scared of. This, I believe, is different.
John - Manifold pressure is obviously an option for me, but this is for my wife's car. I need to be able to set it and forget it. I don't want to have to change the electronics and wiring, though, as that is what I have to do on my 89. I just want more power out of the 81. If when I take the 4.5L and compression test it the correct way, and find good compression, then I may just pull it and reseal it, and put a cheap SC on. BUt if its not as tight as a 250k mile engine could be, then I need these other options.
John - Did you find out if (IF) your engine was okay, taht you could just rering it when apart? Or did people say that was a nono?