How do you like your tires? Suggestions?
03-01-2003, 08:34 PM
#46
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VU- me and several other on various posts have talked about the limitations of the Porsche 928 in wet conditions...
I'm an airline pilot. We spend MONTHS in training, studying our operating manual and verbally memorizing our "limitations" section of the infamous "book". It has detailed instructions about what we can do and what we CANNOT-
And it deals with situations. You encountered a bad condition with the wet road- if there was a "Porsche 928 part 121 manual", it would tell you to drive like a grandmother in the wet or snow! Do us all a favor and BE CAREFULL- drive your car like a Ford F350 [not a 150 or 250] pickup truck or some pathetic old Cadillac when the road gets wet...
N~~
I'm an airline pilot. We spend MONTHS in training, studying our operating manual and verbally memorizing our "limitations" section of the infamous "book". It has detailed instructions about what we can do and what we CANNOT-
And it deals with situations. You encountered a bad condition with the wet road- if there was a "Porsche 928 part 121 manual", it would tell you to drive like a grandmother in the wet or snow! Do us all a favor and BE CAREFULL- drive your car like a Ford F350 [not a 150 or 250] pickup truck or some pathetic old Cadillac when the road gets wet...
N~~
03-01-2003, 08:57 PM
#47
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Rufus Sanders:
<strong>Granted the Kumhos may have only 30K miles in them, but the way our cars have been know to devour front tires (for well known, but very common reasons) why put out more cash than needed? - Ruf</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">When you say our cars are known to devour front tires, do you go through front tires before the rears?
I have only gotten about 10k miles out of my rear Continentals and the front tires look as good as new.
In any case I guess I would not expect any tire to last much past 20k miles while driven "sporty" on a 928.
My tires wear out completely even all around, just the rears don't seem to like the massive torque the shark puts out...
regards,
Sab.
<strong>Granted the Kumhos may have only 30K miles in them, but the way our cars have been know to devour front tires (for well known, but very common reasons) why put out more cash than needed? - Ruf</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">When you say our cars are known to devour front tires, do you go through front tires before the rears?
I have only gotten about 10k miles out of my rear Continentals and the front tires look as good as new.
In any case I guess I would not expect any tire to last much past 20k miles while driven "sporty" on a 928.
My tires wear out completely even all around, just the rears don't seem to like the massive torque the shark puts out...
regards,
Sab.
03-01-2003, 09:02 PM
#48
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Rufus Sanders:
<strong>Granted the Kumhos may have only 30K miles in them, but the way our cars have been know to devour front tires (for well known, but very common reasons) why put out more cash than needed? - Ruf</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">a) Get a proper alignment [1] and you'll be fine.
b) Here's another vote for the Bridgestone S-03: I have them on my GT. Great dry grip and handling, great in the wet, even standing water.
[1] Search for alignment advice on this board if you don't understand what a proper alignment for a 928 is. It's important that it be done right.
<strong>Granted the Kumhos may have only 30K miles in them, but the way our cars have been know to devour front tires (for well known, but very common reasons) why put out more cash than needed? - Ruf</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">a) Get a proper alignment [1] and you'll be fine.
b) Here's another vote for the Bridgestone S-03: I have them on my GT. Great dry grip and handling, great in the wet, even standing water.
[1] Search for alignment advice on this board if you don't understand what a proper alignment for a 928 is. It's important that it be done right.
03-01-2003, 09:59 PM
#49
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I am running Kumho Ecsta 225/40/18 on the fronts and 265/35/18 on the Rears with Italia Riva rims. Good grip on dry and wet pavement. No noise, tracks straight at 120MPH with no vibration. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
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03-02-2003, 01:48 AM
#50
Nordschleife Master
Normy, thats the thing that bugs me, the road wasn't wet!!!
There was a hint of mositure on some graval beside the road, but your realy couldn't see any, or feel any on the road. There was no oil, or grease on the road eighter. I know I checked after the fact.
When I first got the car, I got myself on a back road, one wet day, and started playing around, just to see how she'd react. Since, as you say, there is no mannual for the car for wet conditions, there's only one way to figure out how the car reacts to them. I was careful, and upped the hazard of the event slowly. Just, so I'd know when I got into a real life situation.
I had a new set of Komos on the frount, and a weird lookin set on the rear. I found that with the old set of tires, I could bearly make the rear wheels "chirp", even in wet conditions. There was a bit of fish tailing, when trying curves. It was controlable. Once I got enough to scare me, I quite that test. There was a firghting ease to lock up the frount wheels when brakeing. I take care to make sure that doesn't happen. I NEVER had trouble with the rear wheels comeing lose on a straite line acceleration. She was highly predicatable, and pretty nice actualy.
I'm guessing the new set of cheap Sumitomo's have too hard a rubber compound, and too wide cuts in the tread. It sure wider than anything else I've played with before. I know under dry conditions they don't seem to grip nearly as well.
Maybe the more expensive Suitomo's are better. I looked up what the PO had on the car, according to his records, it was a set of $140 Suitomos. That tire looks and feels compleatly diffrent from what I've got now. I have one of the tires in storage, waiting for need. I'll pull it out, and double check the records. That tire was a NICE tire! Maybe not a raceing tire, but a good tire.
Anyways, be safe, I was trying too, but well, that apperently wasn't happen.
There was a hint of mositure on some graval beside the road, but your realy couldn't see any, or feel any on the road. There was no oil, or grease on the road eighter. I know I checked after the fact.
When I first got the car, I got myself on a back road, one wet day, and started playing around, just to see how she'd react. Since, as you say, there is no mannual for the car for wet conditions, there's only one way to figure out how the car reacts to them. I was careful, and upped the hazard of the event slowly. Just, so I'd know when I got into a real life situation.
I had a new set of Komos on the frount, and a weird lookin set on the rear. I found that with the old set of tires, I could bearly make the rear wheels "chirp", even in wet conditions. There was a bit of fish tailing, when trying curves. It was controlable. Once I got enough to scare me, I quite that test. There was a firghting ease to lock up the frount wheels when brakeing. I take care to make sure that doesn't happen. I NEVER had trouble with the rear wheels comeing lose on a straite line acceleration. She was highly predicatable, and pretty nice actualy.
I'm guessing the new set of cheap Sumitomo's have too hard a rubber compound, and too wide cuts in the tread. It sure wider than anything else I've played with before. I know under dry conditions they don't seem to grip nearly as well.
Maybe the more expensive Suitomo's are better. I looked up what the PO had on the car, according to his records, it was a set of $140 Suitomos. That tire looks and feels compleatly diffrent from what I've got now. I have one of the tires in storage, waiting for need. I'll pull it out, and double check the records. That tire was a NICE tire! Maybe not a raceing tire, but a good tire.
Anyways, be safe, I was trying too, but well, that apperently wasn't happen.
03-02-2003, 04:15 AM
#51
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Viribus,
Sorry to bring this up, but your situation might not have been related to tires........
I wonder if you have something loose, bent or damaged in your rear suspension? That is very strange behaviour for a car going in a straight line.
I know if you get into the throttle hard enough with slippery conditions, the rear will step out. If however, you have a loose shock mount or suspension part, something bent or moving around in your rear suspension that should not be, it could cause the sudden, erratic behaviour you described.
Search for the Don Hanson race report where he reported spinning a couple of times on a dry track because of a rear suspension problem.
Perhaps I am being an alarmist, but I would check the suspension and rear alignment before I just put a new set of tires on the rear and went blissfully on my way assuming everything was fine.
I would like to keep you with us, and if you don't check, the next time the result might not be so positive. You said it yourself, "Be Safe"
Good luck,
Joe
Sorry to bring this up, but your situation might not have been related to tires........
I wonder if you have something loose, bent or damaged in your rear suspension? That is very strange behaviour for a car going in a straight line.
I know if you get into the throttle hard enough with slippery conditions, the rear will step out. If however, you have a loose shock mount or suspension part, something bent or moving around in your rear suspension that should not be, it could cause the sudden, erratic behaviour you described.
Search for the Don Hanson race report where he reported spinning a couple of times on a dry track because of a rear suspension problem.
Perhaps I am being an alarmist, but I would check the suspension and rear alignment before I just put a new set of tires on the rear and went blissfully on my way assuming everything was fine.
I would like to keep you with us, and if you don't check, the next time the result might not be so positive. You said it yourself, "Be Safe"
Good luck,
Joe
03-02-2003, 05:55 AM
#52
But Normy.....
Other than the on ramp cloverleafs and darn few of them the only curves(sic) we have in this part of Texas are ones where you can see the beginning and end of the curve(sic). The distance from beginnning to end of the curves are read on the odometer and can reach over a mile. These kinds of curves are driven thru much like a straight section of highway with very little steering input.
Now if the lost bunch of souls that gathered in shARKANSAS last year end up in the same general area, I can assure you they have curves that will either excite you or give you gray hairs.
Those roads seemed for the most part to be a series of curves put togther in order to maximize the mileage between two points.
Flat curves,increasing and decreasing radius, flat uphill and downhill, curves with rises and drops in the middle, off-camber and banked curves,
switchbacks with all of the above in 1/8 of a mile. Then you reach the end of the motel parking lot and hit that two lane blacktop with signs everywhere warning you about the 10 and 15 mph dangerous curves ahead...sHARk country!
Now there, You and I would both spend a few Guilders, or Kroner on a good set of tires.
John S.
Other than the on ramp cloverleafs and darn few of them the only curves(sic) we have in this part of Texas are ones where you can see the beginning and end of the curve(sic). The distance from beginnning to end of the curves are read on the odometer and can reach over a mile. These kinds of curves are driven thru much like a straight section of highway with very little steering input.
Now if the lost bunch of souls that gathered in shARKANSAS last year end up in the same general area, I can assure you they have curves that will either excite you or give you gray hairs.
Those roads seemed for the most part to be a series of curves put togther in order to maximize the mileage between two points.
Flat curves,increasing and decreasing radius, flat uphill and downhill, curves with rises and drops in the middle, off-camber and banked curves,
switchbacks with all of the above in 1/8 of a mile. Then you reach the end of the motel parking lot and hit that two lane blacktop with signs everywhere warning you about the 10 and 15 mph dangerous curves ahead...sHARk country!
Now there, You and I would both spend a few Guilders, or Kroner on a good set of tires.
John S.
03-02-2003, 11:27 AM
#53
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Yeah John,
I can't wait to see what Jay cooks up for route(s) THIS year!
Are you going to make it to SITM this year? I've heard the take-off point is to be 45 miles away from last year's point, so may include new routes as well? Hope to see Pattycakes there some year....
Now, if you really want to see CURVES, there is a road, not at all far from the Holiday Inn that most people were staying at, for last year's SITM, where bikes must use 1st gear on! Scenic as all get-out, but DON'T take your eyes off the road!!!!! The last time up it with the bike club I'm with, that has their meet down there, one fellow had an encounter with a van! Put a damper on everyone's mood, and that person quit riding for the rest of the weekend. Not good....
Be neat to take you on the curvy roads I grew up with, in SoCal some time too..... Learning on them, in my Dad's '56....
<img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" />
Answering this tire question, Kaamacat, my car came to us, with Uniroyal GTV4's on it, no idea how many miles were on them prior to our owning them, 18k since we bought the car, two years ago come May. Had a lifted alignment done, so can't really say how much longer these skins should have lasted. I liked them well enough.
I got lucky, as I was looking at tires when Tire Rack was clearing out their old stock of Yokohama Intermediate tires. Bought 245/45-16's (AV1-45i's)for $59 each, and 225/50-16's (AV1-50i's)for $60 each. These will be going on shortly, once the winter weather decides to finally VAMOOSE! April 6th is a month away, and I want to go down to the N.C. Charlotte area event.
I'll stay with the stock 16's myself. The tires are expensive enough, ordinarily, thank you! And especially after all the stories I've heard from other owner's, who have bought 17's and 18's, then had encounters with potholes and other solid objects in what should have been smooth roadways (never are all the time, right?) <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" /> and heard the prices of replacement rims! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
I'm lucky enough to be able to afford one of our Sharks, luckier still to have a "rev limiter" who buys me one! I'll personally not abuse the privilege of both, and just use the available funds to keep the car physically fit and ready to go on the events I can logically make it to, SITM, SITO, FRENZY, Hershey, and some or all of the eastern Porsche oriented and interested club meets, shows, rides, and other events I wish to attend. I LIKE driving my car too much to lay it up for "upgrades". Some people like to and can afford to upgrade their cars, to find the upper limits and beyond, some like to race, I like to see what could be done, and watch other's success' and know I could do the same..... I just like driving my car. It is QUITE fast enough for me. <img border="0" alt="[blabla]" title="" src="graemlins/a_smil17.gif" />
May all of you be "Sharking" for years to come! <img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" />
I can't wait to see what Jay cooks up for route(s) THIS year!
Are you going to make it to SITM this year? I've heard the take-off point is to be 45 miles away from last year's point, so may include new routes as well? Hope to see Pattycakes there some year....
Now, if you really want to see CURVES, there is a road, not at all far from the Holiday Inn that most people were staying at, for last year's SITM, where bikes must use 1st gear on! Scenic as all get-out, but DON'T take your eyes off the road!!!!! The last time up it with the bike club I'm with, that has their meet down there, one fellow had an encounter with a van! Put a damper on everyone's mood, and that person quit riding for the rest of the weekend. Not good....
Be neat to take you on the curvy roads I grew up with, in SoCal some time too..... Learning on them, in my Dad's '56....
<img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" /> Answering this tire question, Kaamacat, my car came to us, with Uniroyal GTV4's on it, no idea how many miles were on them prior to our owning them, 18k since we bought the car, two years ago come May. Had a lifted alignment done, so can't really say how much longer these skins should have lasted. I liked them well enough.
I got lucky, as I was looking at tires when Tire Rack was clearing out their old stock of Yokohama Intermediate tires. Bought 245/45-16's (AV1-45i's)for $59 each, and 225/50-16's (AV1-50i's)for $60 each. These will be going on shortly, once the winter weather decides to finally VAMOOSE! April 6th is a month away, and I want to go down to the N.C. Charlotte area event.
I'll stay with the stock 16's myself. The tires are expensive enough, ordinarily, thank you! And especially after all the stories I've heard from other owner's, who have bought 17's and 18's, then had encounters with potholes and other solid objects in what should have been smooth roadways (never are all the time, right?) <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" /> and heard the prices of replacement rims! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
I'm lucky enough to be able to afford one of our Sharks, luckier still to have a "rev limiter" who buys me one! I'll personally not abuse the privilege of both, and just use the available funds to keep the car physically fit and ready to go on the events I can logically make it to, SITM, SITO, FRENZY, Hershey, and some or all of the eastern Porsche oriented and interested club meets, shows, rides, and other events I wish to attend. I LIKE driving my car too much to lay it up for "upgrades". Some people like to and can afford to upgrade their cars, to find the upper limits and beyond, some like to race, I like to see what could be done, and watch other's success' and know I could do the same..... I just like driving my car. It is QUITE fast enough for me. <img border="0" alt="[blabla]" title="" src="graemlins/a_smil17.gif" />
May all of you be "Sharking" for years to come! <img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" />
03-02-2003, 02:48 PM
#54
Nordschleife Master
Thanks, Joe, that never realy occured to me. I always kinda figured if the car didn't pull, and there were no funny noises, everything was fine. I'll give it a look, see if I can find anything. The car still runs straite as an arrow at speed, even after the spin. I haven't noticed any strange noises, and I'm paranoid about that.
I have Sumitomo HTR+ on the rear. IIRC, I got them for $110 a peice, plus mounting and ballanceing. According to the PO's records, the old tires were Sumitomo HTR Z II. They look, and feel, very diffrent. On the road they sound very diffrent. The HRT Z II were quiter. I belive the HRT+ have much less grip, even in dry conditions. I was unable to see now long the HTR Z II would have lasted, as the passanger's side picked up a screw in the side wall shortly after I got the car. Not repairable, so I had to buy a new set of tires. They still had the colored markings on the groves in the thread. I've got nothing bad to say about them, other than I couldn't find just 1 tire, and I rember the price being a bit steep for me. Typicaly anything over $110 is a bit steep. I don't rember how steep.
Thinking back, I rember the officer saying something about there is a slight dip there, and you don't see it untill your on it or something. I didn't see it when I drove over it, nor when I went back and looked. It could be there, as I wasn't realy looking for something so slight.
That would explain how the Ford also had a problem, on the same exact stretch of road, and ending up in the same exact resting place. The other wreck couldn't have been a week old. The cuts it to the grass had yet to start healing.
Well, it could have been a mix of conditions. Dip in the road, hard tire compound, and a touch of moisture conspired aginst me, so when I switched gears, that was the end of it. If I add possible suspension problems, that could more than explain what happened.
I have Sumitomo HTR+ on the rear. IIRC, I got them for $110 a peice, plus mounting and ballanceing. According to the PO's records, the old tires were Sumitomo HTR Z II. They look, and feel, very diffrent. On the road they sound very diffrent. The HRT Z II were quiter. I belive the HRT+ have much less grip, even in dry conditions. I was unable to see now long the HTR Z II would have lasted, as the passanger's side picked up a screw in the side wall shortly after I got the car. Not repairable, so I had to buy a new set of tires. They still had the colored markings on the groves in the thread. I've got nothing bad to say about them, other than I couldn't find just 1 tire, and I rember the price being a bit steep for me. Typicaly anything over $110 is a bit steep. I don't rember how steep.
Thinking back, I rember the officer saying something about there is a slight dip there, and you don't see it untill your on it or something. I didn't see it when I drove over it, nor when I went back and looked. It could be there, as I wasn't realy looking for something so slight.
That would explain how the Ford also had a problem, on the same exact stretch of road, and ending up in the same exact resting place. The other wreck couldn't have been a week old. The cuts it to the grass had yet to start healing.
Well, it could have been a mix of conditions. Dip in the road, hard tire compound, and a touch of moisture conspired aginst me, so when I switched gears, that was the end of it. If I add possible suspension problems, that could more than explain what happened.
03-02-2003, 04:35 PM
#55
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Erik, Yeah a Kia would cost 1/3 as much as a newer 928. Mine is 20 yrs old, cost me 7K and is the cheapest car I've ever owned. so I guess I should put Bridgstones on a Kia ans keep the Kumhos on the 928! Just kidding. The 928 is a fun toy for me, especially in our 5 mo. Minnesota driving season. Keeping it inexpensive is a must.
And yes it does need an alignment which it will get, but the tires are actually cheaper than the alignment...in the short term. Not a solution really.
Sab, 928s have to be aligned w/o raising the car off the ground. My last alignment in June was done "high" and the tires show the classic inner edge wear on the fronts after 15K mi. The rears look good, and would go another 15K mi.
Regular rotations are a must I've learned, and with them, I'd expect 30K out of Kumhos for anyone.
Tires are always a hot topic so please fire away if anyone else hss input on my comments. - Ruf
And yes it does need an alignment which it will get, but the tires are actually cheaper than the alignment...in the short term. Not a solution really.
Sab, 928s have to be aligned w/o raising the car off the ground. My last alignment in June was done "high" and the tires show the classic inner edge wear on the fronts after 15K mi. The rears look good, and would go another 15K mi.
Regular rotations are a must I've learned, and with them, I'd expect 30K out of Kumhos for anyone.
Tires are always a hot topic so please fire away if anyone else hss input on my comments. - Ruf
03-02-2003, 06:48 PM
#56
Drifting
I installed another new set of RE730's last Sept. when I had a good alignment done. I think that they are great tires, limited traction in the wet but overall the best that I've run. I am on my 3rd set of rears and second set of fronts, my problem is wear. My latest fronts are in great shape but my rears are due for replacement again. Less than 8k miles, only 1 track day. I do drive agressively, but I think that they should last longer than that.
BTW, the car is an auto and never sits and spins. I know, keep my foot out of it and they will last longer. Sorry but that ain't gonna happen.
I am also thinking about trying the Yoko AVS ES100's. I didn't have too bad of an experience with the Yoko A520's but the 730's were much better. If the 100's are close to as good as the 730's, I'll be happy. They are priced right and have a "W" speed rating and at the rate that I use them, price matters.
Dave
BTW, the car is an auto and never sits and spins. I know, keep my foot out of it and they will last longer. Sorry but that ain't gonna happen.
I am also thinking about trying the Yoko AVS ES100's. I didn't have too bad of an experience with the Yoko A520's but the 730's were much better. If the 100's are close to as good as the 730's, I'll be happy. They are priced right and have a "W" speed rating and at the rate that I use them, price matters.
Dave
03-03-2003, 05:29 AM
#57
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A few days ago I had a set of 4 Hankook K102 fitted to my car...Front 225/50/16" and Rear 245/45/16".
So far handling confort and road holing in the wet has been exceptional.
One negative....over 40mhp I start geting a wheel bearing type sound....except its not bearings ,as they were recently replaced. They cost me $A900 about $US540 for the set with a 4 wheel alignment.
So far handling confort and road holing in the wet has been exceptional.
One negative....over 40mhp I start geting a wheel bearing type sound....except its not bearings ,as they were recently replaced. They cost me $A900 about $US540 for the set with a 4 wheel alignment.
03-03-2003, 07:53 AM
#58
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Erik, I totally agree with you, but the thing is that I only use the 928 to travel and in the weekends, never in city traffic or workdays. Kumhos are the worst thing I've ever seen, like hankooks. If you go in Spain to the MOT or in Germany to the TUV, with a car rated w,y or zr with that tyres they will fail you, and I understand. It doesn't matter how cheap can be a 928 now, (I only paid 3000 Eur) but it's a car that it was designed with high specs, so it must have a high performance tyres.
I bought four bridgestone so1 N2. Good tyres overall, that's why porsche approved it, I suppose......
I prefer to have a safe tyres than a good looking 18" alloys...
I bought four bridgestone so1 N2. Good tyres overall, that's why porsche approved it, I suppose......
I prefer to have a safe tyres than a good looking 18" alloys...
03-03-2003, 10:15 AM
#60
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Rufus Sanders:
<strong>And yes it does need an alignment which it will get, but the tires are actually cheaper than the alignment...in the short term. Not a solution really.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Rufus,
Look at 929 Forum issue # 4 (will come in two months time) I wrote an article regarding DIY
alignment - Then when you safe these money by DIY, please promise me, to buy quality tires
Max,
Yes you are right in Europe we cannot get the car approved without having tires approved for the max possible speed of the car - I.e. Z code I.e. > 240 Km/h = > 150 Miles/h - Only winter tires may be less - I.e. H code = Max 210 Km/h = 130 Miles/h, but then (acc. to law) we must have a sign (label) telling this, placed close to the Speedo!!
Salute for the good taste <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
<strong>And yes it does need an alignment which it will get, but the tires are actually cheaper than the alignment...in the short term. Not a solution really.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Rufus,
Look at 929 Forum issue # 4 (will come in two months time) I wrote an article regarding DIY
alignment - Then when you safe these money by DIY, please promise me, to buy quality tires
Max,
Yes you are right in Europe we cannot get the car approved without having tires approved for the max possible speed of the car - I.e. Z code I.e. > 240 Km/h = > 150 Miles/h - Only winter tires may be less - I.e. H code = Max 210 Km/h = 130 Miles/h, but then (acc. to law) we must have a sign (label) telling this, placed close to the Speedo!!
Salute for the good taste <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />