Podguy

Bob,

As I understand it, R12 is no longer manufactured. Sales are either from reclaimed or old stock. Am I wrong on this? I recently bought 12 cans for $200. Not sure this was a good deal or not, but I did not have any trouble getting it and the guy had as much as I wanted to buy. Do you know of a cheaper source?

Dan the Pod Guy

joejoe

$16.60 per can is a good price, you did well there. Is that a local source or will your guy ship?

dr bob

Dan--

Either there was a lot of "inventory" of R-12 at Dupont, or they are still in the biz. You can drive across the border to Mexico and buy cylinders of brand new Dupont de Mexico R-12 for about the same price as R-134a. Hard to believe that in 15 years the "old inventory" hasn't been long used up. Ten years ago in southeast Asia, it was selling locally for literally pennies a pound after the currencies there were revalued. Plenty in the market in other places in the world, and plenty available here too. In Jakarta, I had a Mitsu mini-van for transport. It had two completely separate AC systems, R-12, because of the local heat and humidity. The rear system would blow an icy fog within minutes of engine start. Looked funny in the back, like a horror movie set. My driver and I came to a truce on temp settings-- He started bringing a jacket so we could set the temp below 80 in the forward cabin. We weren't allowed to drive, and he wasn't used to having his passengers in the front seat. Anyway, R-12 is still plentiful and cheap everywhere but here and in a few US slave territories. I just couldn't bring a pallet of compressed gas cylinders onto the plane as luggage.

Podguy

I found him on Craig's list. He shipped via UPS but labeled the package something else - I forget which. He had no reason to see my certificate.

You might look there.

Dan the Pod Guy.

Podguy

Bob,

Thanks for the run down.

Dan

underdog928

I just bought 5 cans of R12 on eBay for $100.00 ($20/can). Not as good a deal as Dan's, but this stuff is readily available and much better for the OB's than R-134a.

http://motors.search.ebay.com/?from=...ow-Best+Offer+

Look for the sellers that don't require you to have an EPA cert. (FYI)

mj1pate

Gotcha...are there suppliers that we have confidence are not suppliying us with something other than R12 in the R12 can?

Mike

morganabowen

Like Dr. Bob said, the 12 ounce cans in Mexico are under $8.00. This should be of particular interest to those that live close to the Mexican border

Podguy

Here is an interesting link to the decision now to do away with both R12 and R134a. Convenient how this agreement comes 20 years after the decision to phase out R12.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20925073/

More interesting is the patent application for R134a.

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/66...scription.html

Note the declaration that R134a has no inpact in the ozone layer. Yet the new conference explicitly lists the threat to the ozone layer as the reason for phasing out R134a.

I was always a little suspicious when both Thacher and Reagan suddenly became envirnomentalists.

It looks like shortly we will be forced to make another refrigerant change.

Dan the Pod Guy

dr bob

Dan--

That application is interesting. It's for a drop-in R-12 replacement that blends R-134a and a hydrocarbon, solely to have the hydrocarbon available to carry the existing R-12-compatible hydrocarbon-based oil around the system. The hydrocarbons chose for the blends are also quite interesting, in that they prefer iso-pentane over normal pentane, mention normal butane but ignore iso-butane. Iso-butane and then normal pentane would be the preferred hydrocarbons if you actually want to have the hydrocarbon participate in the heat transfer process most effectively. The application also shows some concern for the uneven depletion of the HC in the blend, though they mention at the beginning that they intend this as a "top off" option for existing in-service R-12 systems. If the reason you need to "top off" an in-service system is because of a leak (and most fall into that description) then the concern for uneven fractionation of the blen is very well founded. Usingthis blend is the service they describe dooms your system to time-bomb status-- when the hydrocarbon fraction has leaked out, circulation of lubricatant wil diminish. possibly to the point where compressor failure is inevitable. Because the HC fraction is so small (1-5% by weight in the top-off gas) you probably wouldn't notice the reduction of cooling efficiency before the compressor starts to self-destruct.

JKelly

Has anyone used a product called Freeze 12. It is supposed to be a non-flammable drop in replacement for R-12. It sells for about $10 a can at our local pep-boys.

Bill Ball

Never used Freeze 12. It is a mixture of 80% R-134a and 20% R-142b. It's an approved retrofit.

j.kenzie@sbcglobal.net

I had it for a year or so and it worked fine. I changed to R134 because I was afraid I would not find any shop to service my system with Freeze 12 in it. I've been happy with R134 and I also rewired my condenser fan to come on with the compressor.

Mark Stahl

Well, I guess all of us scientists with peer-reviewed articles containing results and methodology confirmed across multiple disciplines, who openly publish our results supported by reams of data had better watch out, since 'dr' bob on the internet is keeping a *list* of things he arbitrarily disagrees with! Golly gee, dr bob, I sure hope you can point us all to the enlightened, non-wild, substantiated explanations some time soon!

In the meantime, can someone advise me on what the current refrigeration recommendation would be if one had to change hoses and O-rings (but not compressor) anyway? It would be nice if an A/C shop would still work on it, although I'm fine with purchasing my own refrigerant for top-offs and such. It's been so long since I've been to an A/C shop I don't know how they regard R12 systems even...

(as I plot how to temporarily abscond with a vacuum pump.... )

ROG100

I have plenty of R12 at $20 a can. Comes from Brazil and they are new cans. Not stuff that has sat around on shelves with rusty tops.