Cam timing changes
03-25-2007, 11:15 PM
#1
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Cam timing changes
I searched on the subject matter and found Ken has set his cams advanced 7 degrees pass and 8 degrees drivers side (crank degrees, normaly aspirated, LHD).
Has anyone else went this far and if so what was the results?
Going in tomorrow with V1.0 Cam Timing tool.
Has anyone else went this far and if so what was the results?
Going in tomorrow with V1.0 Cam Timing tool.
03-26-2007, 12:22 AM
#2
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I found that you need at least 4° crank to be able to really feel a difference.
Remember, the factory setting on the V1 32V'r is the first hole CCW of zero or 2° crank advance on the driver's side, and 1° pass. So 4° advance would be 3 holes CCW.
Remember, the factory setting on the V1 32V'r is the first hole CCW of zero or 2° crank advance on the driver's side, and 1° pass. So 4° advance would be 3 holes CCW.
03-26-2007, 12:29 AM
#3
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Ken..........pls. clarify.
From a previous thread I read you to say that 8 degrees (crank) advance would be the 5th CCW hole on the V1.0 tool. 2 degrees being stock + 8 degrees advance hence the 5th hole/ 10 degrees in total advance. Yes?
From a previous thread I read you to say that 8 degrees (crank) advance would be the 5th CCW hole on the V1.0 tool. 2 degrees being stock + 8 degrees advance hence the 5th hole/ 10 degrees in total advance. Yes?
03-26-2007, 12:40 AM
#4
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Malcolm,
That is correct. I should have said 4° advance over stock.
The V1 tool is centered on the cam gear key, but the dial indicator method is measured with 1mm lift, which turned out to be about 2° crank advance, so I moved the V2's zero for simplicity.
That is correct. I should have said 4° advance over stock.
The V1 tool is centered on the cam gear key, but the dial indicator method is measured with 1mm lift, which turned out to be about 2° crank advance, so I moved the V2's zero for simplicity.
03-26-2007, 12:53 AM
#5
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Thx Ken.............I'll go with the 8 degree advance. 
Given that I'm replacing the t.belt as soon as the Porken tensioner arrives I want to experiment the cam timing with a well seasoned set up. I'll do the work tomorrow and hopefully be able to go for a drive............spring snows
Given that I'm replacing the t.belt as soon as the Porken tensioner arrives I want to experiment the cam timing with a well seasoned set up. I'll do the work tomorrow and hopefully be able to go for a drive............spring snows
03-29-2007, 11:42 PM
#6
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I finally got to the point of checking the cam timing with Porkens V1.0 tool. Both cams measure 4 degrees advance (crank degrees)...........anyone else seen this stock setting?
Now my issue is with the IRP set at 4 degrees do I now advance to the 5th hole? giving the total 10 degree or..............should I go 12(advance)?
Now my issue is with the IRP set at 4 degrees do I now advance to the 5th hole? giving the total 10 degree or..............should I go 12(advance)?
03-30-2007, 02:01 PM
#7
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Malcolm,
I'm going to revise the V1 manual and drop the IRP (initial reference point) language, and use the 2°/1° (L/R) as gospel instead.
It appears that your engine is 2° advanced already. (If your engine was cold, the right side {NA passenger} should be ~1° less.)
I was on the dyno, yesterday. (Clone chips, X-pipe, RMB, PKsn'r.) At 8° I managed 304rwtq, at around 4000rpm, but IIRC, HP was only ~274@5500! But, at 0°, it was very close at 297, but at 4500rpm, and rwhp was 297@5800. Unfortunately, dyno guy lost the advanced runs (
), so I don't have the curves to compare. I should start the run earlier than 2500rpm, because a lot of the action is below 3000rpm, I believe.
My point is that I think that your settings are pretty good, and maybe 8° is too much. Maybe add another 2° for a net of 4° adv. (6° total on your V1). I will probably try 4°, myself, next time.
I wish it didn't take 2 hours to adjust an '86 32V! It's about 15 minutes on my '81 (no TB covers).
I'm going to revise the V1 manual and drop the IRP (initial reference point) language, and use the 2°/1° (L/R) as gospel instead.
It appears that your engine is 2° advanced already. (If your engine was cold, the right side {NA passenger} should be ~1° less.)
I was on the dyno, yesterday. (Clone chips, X-pipe, RMB, PKsn'r.) At 8° I managed 304rwtq, at around 4000rpm, but IIRC, HP was only ~274@5500! But, at 0°, it was very close at 297, but at 4500rpm, and rwhp was 297@5800. Unfortunately, dyno guy lost the advanced runs (
), so I don't have the curves to compare. I should start the run earlier than 2500rpm, because a lot of the action is below 3000rpm, I believe.My point is that I think that your settings are pretty good, and maybe 8° is too much. Maybe add another 2° for a net of 4° adv. (6° total on your V1). I will probably try 4°, myself, next time.
I wish it didn't take 2 hours to adjust an '86 32V! It's about 15 minutes on my '81 (no TB covers).
Last edited by PorKen; 03-30-2007 at 02:41 PM.
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03-30-2007, 06:00 PM
#8
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Ken..............there's is a small difference between passenger and drivers measurements but hard to measure how much; I now realise why you went to a V2.0 with 1 .0 intervals (yes I measured cold; my large mitts wont allow TB cover removal with the rad hoses in situ.)
I'll add 2 degree advance to both sides and button her up. She'll be apart again soon enough for a t.belt change and your new tensioner.
I'll add 2 degree advance to both sides and button her up. She'll be apart again soon enough for a t.belt change and your new tensioner.
03-30-2007, 08:07 PM
#9
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Malcolm,
You can split the difference by putting two needles in the holder, side by side, and split the difference in the V for 1°.
As I was driving around in city traffic today, I could tell the difference, again. Without the advance it's a relative sissy from take-off.
Once you wind it up it's got legs, but in regular driving, you don't do that with the auto. Where's the variable timing system?!
It is a bit of an unfair comparison, as I fried my EZ-F clone chip by installing it backasswards.
Even so, with the factory chip, and the EZ-F'r switched on, it's still sluggish.
You can split the difference by putting two needles in the holder, side by side, and split the difference in the V for 1°.
As I was driving around in city traffic today, I could tell the difference, again. Without the advance it's a relative sissy from take-off.
Once you wind it up it's got legs, but in regular driving, you don't do that with the auto. Where's the variable timing system?!It is a bit of an unfair comparison, as I fried my EZ-F clone chip by installing it backasswards.
Even so, with the factory chip, and the EZ-F'r switched on, it's still sluggish.
03-30-2007, 11:18 PM
#10
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Just finished with settings at 7 and 8 degrees passenger/drivers and fired her up. Lost the light for any spirited driving but intial thoughts are free reving off idle and good grunt which would align with more torque from the advanced cams.
It was evident that the cam bolts have not been touched since the factory did so moving the cams was a little tricky. Now that I've done it once the next time will be easy.
All in all quite easy especially compared to motor mounts or suspension work...........great tool Ken.
It was evident that the cam bolts have not been touched since the factory did so moving the cams was a little tricky. Now that I've done it once the next time will be easy.
All in all quite easy especially compared to motor mounts or suspension work...........great tool Ken.
03-30-2007, 11:54 PM
#11
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It will be interesting to hear how the S4 cams react at that setting (+8° total, IE 6° actual?).
I should have said more sluggish - with part throttle driving. On the freeway, at full throttle with kickdown, the twin 300* RWs really shine.
(*OK, 290 SAE.
)
I should have said more sluggish - with part throttle driving. On the freeway, at full throttle with kickdown, the twin 300* RWs really shine.
(*OK, 290 SAE.
)
03-31-2007, 12:11 AM
#12
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Originally Posted by PorKen
It will be interesting to hear how the S4 cams react at that setting (+8° total, IE 6° actual?).
03-31-2007, 05:16 PM
#13
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1st day Driving impressions
Went for a 70 km trip today before the snow arrived (again). Very impressed by the way the car responds to the change in cam timing with power available from low down in the rev range.
I'm not sure the diff. between cam profiles between the S4 and other models (well I know the GT cams are considerabley different) but putting the advance in with the auto box and 2.20 rear sure livend up the low speed grunt of my car.
While I can appreciate that overal power has remained somewhat the same having it available further down the rev range appears more practicle especially living in the speed constrained North American highways.
I read the instructions 15 times and read all posts on the matter as I didn't want anything going wrong and having a large head, valve valve guide repair job but it's not difficult at all. For those on the fence of buying the 'tool' or worried it beyond home garage work dont be; its a very doable project.
I'm not sure the diff. between cam profiles between the S4 and other models (well I know the GT cams are considerabley different) but putting the advance in with the auto box and 2.20 rear sure livend up the low speed grunt of my car.
While I can appreciate that overal power has remained somewhat the same having it available further down the rev range appears more practicle especially living in the speed constrained North American highways.
I read the instructions 15 times and read all posts on the matter as I didn't want anything going wrong and having a large head, valve valve guide repair job but it's not difficult at all. For those on the fence of buying the 'tool' or worried it beyond home garage work dont be; its a very doable project.
Last edited by the flyin' scotsman; 03-31-2007 at 06:06 PM.
03-31-2007, 05:31 PM
#14
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Good to read your experince, Malcolm. I agree and can't wait until my new PorKen timing tool arrives. Ken has the simple instructions posted at liftbars.com I still marvel that he came up with this creative idea. I think it's more difficult to change out the PS belt than to use the PorKen tool.
Harvey
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03-31-2007, 09:23 PM
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Ken, last year or more, when I put my engine back together, I used the factory settings ie; measering the cam lift which set the cams to almost zero. I then used your tool and set both sides to zero. The car to me runs fine but maybe it's not as fine as it should. Is the reccomendation to set the PS to 7 degrees and the drivers side to 8 degrees?
Terry
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