cdbtx

It's not uncommon at PCA events for an instructor to sign off a driver for solo after their first run.
I can't remember a single track event where I haven't seen cars off the track
At Spokane it's rare to see more than 5 cars on the track at a time - PCA and other club events average 35+ cars.
PCA and other track events there's certainly a great deal of peer pressure to keep up with the pack.
At Spokane you're encouraged to come and go at your leisure - take a couple of laps, pull into the pits, think about it. No traffic - no peer pressure - safety.

Then the single most important point everyone seems to be missing - PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. I'm responsible for taking passengers if I choose - which I don't. I'm also responsibile if I choose to ride with someone (BTW Adam is the only driver with the exception of an instructor I've ever ridden with).

The staff at Spokane is very experienced and has a strong sense of personal responsibilty.

I've participated in well over 30 track events, test and tunes, time trials and races and the reason I go to this Spokane event is safety. I can drive and am encouraged to drive at my limits - at any time during the day I can grab an instructor, - The Spokane event lacks the peer pressure and egos of the other club events I've attended. I couldn't even begin to count the number of Ferraris and other high end street cars I've seen off the track at other club events. In fact I can't recall a single track event I've ever attended that didn't have cars off the track- PCA, BMW, Alfa Romeo, Corvette Club, IRDC, etc.

If you've attended the Spokane event - then you know that it largely consists of regulars (not all 928s) and it's a very close knit group - everyone is familiar with each others cars and skills.

If you've attended the Spokane event and drivers meetings then you're very aware of how safety is stressed and how the event is moderated.

It's not a race, doesn't resemble a race and more closely resembles a test and tune - on the track - back off the track for feedback and discussion.

Geeeeeeeeezzzz - lots of ramblings - and everyone going on with their opinions - lest we forget:

Opinion - a personal belief or judgment that is not founded on proof or certainty
Experience - something that one has done or lived through

Did I mention personal responsibility somewhere? Yeah - I know Adam if we all took personal responsibility seriously you would be out of work!


Chuck


83 Kiln Red 928S

cooleyjb

You're right, I haven't. However, my original post questioning people with 2 hours of track experience having the chance to take passengers was met with rudeness and comments about how not owning a 928 or being a Rennlist member meant that I wasn't allowed to speak up about a safety issue. That did not reflect well on the safety level or professionalism of the event. The attitude of organizers are a big part of event safety and so far, the attitude has been less than cordial the moment I questioned one of their policies.

Personal responsibilty is extremely important with howver especially over the last few years with the increase in the number of DE's and subsequently the increase in the number of on-track deaths during DE's, is it really worth it to not err on the side of safety somewhat.

BTW, who is sanctioning and insuring the event?

H2

Jim,

Be glad for the bones in your head. If you were to ever flip and end up upside down, when you release the seat belt, the bone in your head protects you from injury. Don't ask me how I know...and it wasn't at the Spokane Raceway or a track...but as a teenager trying to act like Parnelli Jones in a '50 Ford on Kidwell's Ridge road by Cherokee Lake in East Tennessee...at night. We'd turn our headlights off to see if there were lights coming from around the upcoming corners and turn the lights on and gun it on the inside of the curves. Thank goodness for today's monitored Track Attacks!

H2

atb

Get real Troll. It's not sanctioned or insured. Further, helmets, seatbelts, and any other form of safety equipment are prohibited. You must drive in your underwear. Boxers only, no briefs.

You need to get a grip Cooley, and take off your Officer Safety badge. I didn't post this invitation on the "Racers and Drivers Education" Forum as general information for a DE sign up. It is not open to the general public. It is not open to all rennlist members and users. It is posted on the 928 Forum for a reason. Mainly, any 928 owner who is legitimately interested in attending the event I am probably going to know from having talked to them before in person, via email, or on rennlist. This is an "invitation only" event for a reason. As Chuck has stated, this event works because of the close knit relationship between all of the drivers.

It is a 928 event, but we usually fill up extra spots with other makes because we do not have enough 928s locally to fill up all of the slots. My invitation was to invite other 928 owners to take up those slots that are normally filled by other makes to get a greater percentage of 928s on the track but keeping the same overall number of cars. I can honestly say that any 928 owner that responds to this post I am probably going to have had some contact with in the past. I extended an invitation to you because apparently you have enough track experience that you feel compelled to pass judgment on an event that you've never attended. Upon showing up at the track, the instructors would see how you drive the line to make the ultimate decision as to whether or not your are safe to drive on your own.

It's been obvious from your first post that this event is not for you. Why do keep beating the horse except to feed your own ego?

atb

Tom928 wrote:

Is there a particular Saturday or Sunday that works for you Tom? I'm looking at Saturday March 24th as a possible. That will give everyone enough time to order parts if needed well ahead of the event. If you have any minor stuff you want to take care of while your car is on the lift at the same time we go through it, let me know. We can handle it all then.

I'm thinking will have a local get together for brunch and then we can head on over to the shop. It will give you a chance to meet the others in the group.

cooleyjb

This is what I am talking about. I ask a simple question and I get a response I'd expect at vwvortex or honda-tech. It's a legitimate concern to me. I passed judgement by what you had said. If you had responded politely addressing my concerns instead of getting all worked up and resorting to calling me names we wouldn't be in this situation. Why must you act like your motto is Ready, Fire, Aim? I'm beating the horse because you haven't addressed my concerns until the half-hearted attempt in the last post that was surrounded by childish ranting.

Why is it important to me you ask? Maybe because my father who has been tracking 928s since the 80's is interested in coming out to the event with his track-prepped 928. Maybe because I actually do care about his safety if he were going to be one of the instructors, that is also where the insurance question comes in. Say one of the attendees is going 120+ down the straight and the trailing arm fails sending hte car into one of the berms hurting the instructor who's riding shotgun. These are LEGITIMATE concerns that you address by calling me a troll and making fun of the question. WHY MUST YOU BE SO RUDE? Why can't you address my questions in a professional manner? Please be civil that is all I ask, don't revert to calling me a troll and attempting to ridicule me and my questions while making fun of my concern for safety. That isn't nice.

So again my concerns and questions are:

1. Is it really possible that someone who is inexperienced in tracking a car be able to take passengers out once they have been solo'd on day one. Does this happen frequently. People have a habit of pushing things a bit harder when there buddy is around (even subconciously) and in my opinion when you are new to tracking it isn't time to be learning the limits of your car with a buddy in the right seat.

2. Since this is a small organization running this, is there an insurance policy covering the event?

I'd appreciate a level-headed response that isn't filled with calling me names. atb, I am not attacking you personally, please stop taking it that way. I'm asking some simple questions that I genuinely would like answered.

Tom928

My schedule is pretty flexible so March 10th, 17th and the 24th work fine for me. I am finishing up the PS pump replacement next weekend along with new fan bearings, belts and oil change. Brakes pads and sensors were done last June (with new fluid) but I want to bleed them again.

Besides any other major problems - my main concern is tires. The front are good; however, the rear are gone. Instead of buying new 15" for the rear I was going to get new 16" phone dials wheels and then put new tries on them. Problem is - I will not have the $$$ to do this before TA.

I do have a set of slotted 16" on my 84 that have new Kumho's (225's) with less than 300 miles on them and I figure I could put those on the 81 for TA. I think this will work; however, I am not sure if I need the spacers from the 84?
Anyone see any problems doing this?

A brunch before going to the shop would be great. Just let me know where and when.

atb

Cooley wrote:

Yes.

In my seven years of attending the event, I haven't seen a newbie not get signed off solo by the lunch hour.

I haven't seen this kind of behaviour at the Track Attack. This is a direct result of the people that are let into the event. I think they all know that it is a unique situation, and no one wants to be the one to mess it up for the rest by driving beyond their limits. There is a mutual respect among the participants. I don't know of anyone that attends that drives the limit with a passenger out of courtesy for their safety. I personally have run with most newbies upon their getting signed off solo. My opinion is that they actually find it more comforting to have someone else in the car rather than going out there alone. The passengers would be other participants, not the general public.

I wasn't lying when I said no.

For you, I think regarding the Track Attack as a Test and Tune will give you a better frame of reference. It doesn't sound like you would be comfortable with the parameters for this particular event (though you keep trying ). If you attend you should assume that you will have no legal or physical safeguards out there but your own ability and those of your fellow drivers. I can understand why you or anyone else may not be comfortable with that. It's your choice. The fact that the people that do attend understand this speaks highly in my opinion of their ability to safeguard their own actions, and when required, safeguard the actions of others.

Unless your Dad has had experience at SRP, or is well known by the driving coaches, I don't know that they would take him on as an instructor. But that's not my call. I can tell you this, I've asked to bring another "well-qualified" instructor at one time and was refused. So experience doesn't necessarily win the day at this event as far as instructors go.


There you go, straight and narrow.

atb

Tom928 wrote:

I've posted on the PacNW board for the 24th. If I get some conflicts I'll let you know regarding the other open dates.

I'm going to be ordering a power bleeder which hopefully we would have by the 24th. If not, it still easier to do a bleed on the lift with a couple guys, so bring your ATE or fluid of choice and we can handle at the shop.

No spacers necessary. The 16's will work fine.

I'll keep you posted on the date.

cooleyjb

atb.

Thanks, that is exactly what I was looking for.

He does have experience at SRP, I beleive he did an instructor school there. If he is able to get the engine done in time the event fits well into my schedule and I would love to make it to the event that is exclusively or nearly exclusive 928. There are a lot of fun ones in the NW that I'd love to see running.