VehiGAZ

Hello shark fans,

I've been searching for my first 928 for almost a year now, and I'm considering the 1990 GT listed in the Rennlist classifieds. I saw it last weekend - it is in superb cosmetic condition inside and out, it appears to be well maintained (new t-belt, clutch), but of course it drives like a 17 year old car - a coarse vibration in the shifter, a little looseness in drivetrain, and your typical cabin panel shaking. Still a ton of fun, though!!

More pics and info on this GT from when it was last for sale down in Naples, FL are listed on 928registry-dot-org as 1990 GT #0100 (Sorry - can't post the url yet as a new user)

After doing some more research, I realized this car has a GTS rear body panel, a funky 928GT badge, and the muffler has been replaced. I'm suspicious that the car was rear-ended and fixed up this way, but that is not my main concern... although I am willing to pay the extra money for a GT over an S4 5-speed for the collectibility and resale factors, I'm concerned that the non-original back end may mean this car isn't worth GT pricing.

Also, the owner bought it around May 2006 and is selling already, which I also find surprising. He said he is selling it because the garage (behind a friend's business) where he keeps it is for sale, so he needs to clear out. Maybe that's 100% true, maybe he just needs the money, or maybe he is trying to unload a big ugly problem...

Any thoughts? Anyone know anything more about this particular 928? Any help would be appreciated!! Thanks!

George

Bill Ball

"but of course it drives like a 17 year old car - a coarse vibration in the shifter, a little looseness in drivetrain, and your typical cabin panel shaking."

This does not sound typical to me. There are some things that need attention, maybe serious attention. Most 928s I ride in are smooth and tight and rattles are rare. I'd be worried by these observations.

danglerb

928's require a thorough PPI, carfax, etc. People buy these cars cheaply and resell them all the time, fully half or more of the cars you will find forsale are from owners that have had the car less than 6 months.

Have the car inspected, typical cost is $300 or less, and then you know what its worth.

Giovanni

Is that the white GT? At that price, it should be a perfect example.

IMO paying anyone to do a PPI is money wasted. You get no guarantee and no warranty. The thing can disintegrate the next day and then what?

blown 87

You are kidding right?

bd0nalds0n

shaking and vibrations are red flags.

Jim bailey - 928 International

Gio correct there is no warranty but it might be nice to know that 1/4 of the car was not poorly spot welded back into place ,That the engine block is not cracked from bottoming out the A/C compressor, That the gas tank does not have a big lump of J B weld trying to stop the leak, that the car has good compression on all 8 cylinders, that the brake pad sensor wires are not twisted together because the pads and rotors ar shot. That the new timing belt is not 1/2 as wide as it should be and any 32 valve auto needs a thrust bearing crank end play test...... A good PPI can not tell you what might go wrong in the future but can at least give someone some Idea of what IS WRONG NOW and possibly what has been poorly done in the past. There are a lot of people who may not have the experience knowledge to determine much more than .." It sure is pretty ". Plus the desire to own one is emotional the mechanic doing a PPI has no such attachment...

VehiGAZ

Carfax indicated no problems and consistent mileage - it was a Florida car until last year. The seller showed me an inspection report that another buyer paid to have done, and the car was rated as essentially perfect (the seller then wanted to only about $20k, which was no doubt declined more graciously than it was offered). The body & interior are about the best I've seen - my only real concern is the vibration in the shifter. I can deal with new mounts if that's the cause, but I'm concerned if it's because of something more sinister. As for the body panel shakes and shivers, Bill Ball, I envy you - every 928 I've test driven has had some rattles.

I understand Giovanni's point of view, though - a PPI is only as deep as the mechanic's look at the car. He's probably won't take anything apart to see what's going on inside, and so the only problems he'll find will be skin-deep. A mechanic that routinely works on a lot of 928s will probably do a better job, but how many of those are there? Anyway, I think his main point is that if the inspection doesn't find a certain problem that blossoms in your driveway, who ya gonna call? You are still stuck holding the bag and payign for the repair.

Jim Bailey, I don't think the inspection that was done was that intensive mechanically.

The seller is a guy named Tom Burdge, and I believe he also owns a 911, and he races 914s in SCCA. I don't think he bought this car speculatively, though.

Any thoughts on my main concern about the non-original back end and the car's value?

ErnestSw

Is that the red GT with the GTS rear? ALL later 928s have collapsed motor mounts until proven otherwise. Where are you located?

VehiGAZ

No, the white one with the GTS rear. Listed on 12/25 for $26,500.

Bill Ball

Vibration in the shifter -- if someone could remove the lower bellhousing cover and stick a straightened cut piece of coat hanger down inside the end of the TT, I think you will find the front bearing has migrated rearward. Anything more than 10 inches is abnormal and will lead to vibration pretty much throughout the entire RPM range. Add one TT to the repair list.

It might be something else, but this is likely the cause. Bad MMs vibrate mostly under 2K RPM, where as a bad TT gets worse or is at least quite prominent at higher RPM. Also, it's very easy to spot bad MMs during a PPI by looking at them and the lack of a gap between the oil pan and the crossmember.

Charley B

Sounds like he had the right day (12/25) to come up with that price.

danglerb

The PPI isn't insurance, its prudence, due diligence, to reduce risk, not eliminate it. PPI is also the best tool for working out a fair price.

The less you know yourself, the more you need a PPI. Anybody should be able to learn and perform about half of a PPI themselves, but the other half needs someone experienced with the 928 to drive it, check compression, and put it on a lift. You don't need to spend a lot on PPI's, set a limit on total repair cost and walk away as soon as anything pokes at that limit. Everybody I talked to doing PPI's works that way, if nasty things pop up in 15 minutes of test drive and up on the lift, the cost is little or nothing.

If you plan to do the work on the car yourself you need to learn it, otherwise finding a good mechanic is the first job with a 928 anyway, why not use the PPI to see how you like the way they work?

Most of us experienced or not could use somebody independent to whack us on the head when we get too excited about a 928.

It would be nice if instead of a PPI you could just ask, how much for a 1 year bumper to bumper warranty? Gotta try that on the next guy that says it just needs a recharge and tuneup.

nosnow

Myself I can push all the buttons, verify warning lights, climate control operation, and oil leaks. If the car passes those inspections then I move onto my next list of items.

Chasis
- Check carfax to see title history & in CA I have been successful in verifying mileage as it is required at every smog check
- Pull up the the carpet in the trunk, look under the spare, get into the battery tray. If the seems are not factory you will be able to tell and if you can't generally the repair job is high end.
- Look at the sheet metal under the tool kit to verify it is straight
- Check the alignment of doors & hatch
- Look at the hinges and door latches to see if the paint is uniform or if they have been moved lately
- Check the interior trim panels for consistancy, they may need clips
- Depending on model year verify the VIN tag is on each body panel

Under the Hood
- Look for leaks and verify that all fluids are full and clean
- Scrutinize the firewall & frame rails from above & below. If the paint is cracked, flaking or newly undercoated there is possible frame damage.

Test Driving
- Brakes
- Drivetrain noises
- Rattles

If you do go with the PPI inspection make sure that they check the key items for the year. You may just want to have them inspect those points and negotiate down the inspection costs. Also, with an extensive look over by yourself you can speak to the mechanic about things you notice.

VehiGAZ

So many questions...

I am near New Haven, CT, and the car is about 2:15 away in NJ, so he's not going to let me bring it up here to my local garage. (I actually have two local garages to choose from that work primarily on Porsches, Ferraris, BMWs, MBs, etc., but each has only one or two 928s that they work on regularly. I can do plenty myself, but the big things I'll leave to the pros.) I would probably have him bring it to a dealer near him.

As for buyer excitement, I got over that quick - the first car I saw was a POS and immediately reminded me that used-car-shopping is an unpleasant chore.

I saw the battery tray and rear sheetmetal behind the tools, and nothing looked amiss (but I'll grant that I was not looking specifically for rear end body damage). I am not worried about frame damage on this car.

I think the price is not too far off the mark - the few GTs for sale that I've come across in the last year or so have all been priced in the $25k to $30k range. But if anyone has a better deal for me... :-)

So uh... how much should a TT adjustment run?