Looking up all the 928 by VIN
03-22-2007, 06:10 PM
#31
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Erkka - Yes the VIN check digit is used only to try to prevent transcription errors in VIN's and is implemented purely mechanically with not context checking of the other digit values.
I'm sure the validation sequence in Carfax is simply - validate the check digit, then match to an actual VIN record (or not).
Most of the encodings in the VDS & VIS sections are manufacturer specific - even those that have a clear recommended usage are in practice somewhat variable..
It would be reasonable for Carfax to validate at least the WMI codes actually exist but I suspect it doesn't bother - since you'd just get a miss on the VIN record match anyway and if this was due to a transcription error you'd have to have made at least 2 character errors to not have check digit mismatch (in which case you must be an idiot anyway!).
I created an article on Porsche 928 VIN formats and an Excel sheet for VIN check digit calculation several year ago -it was published in 928 Forum magazine. Zip of both attached.
Alan
I'm sure the validation sequence in Carfax is simply - validate the check digit, then match to an actual VIN record (or not).
Most of the encodings in the VDS & VIS sections are manufacturer specific - even those that have a clear recommended usage are in practice somewhat variable..
It would be reasonable for Carfax to validate at least the WMI codes actually exist but I suspect it doesn't bother - since you'd just get a miss on the VIN record match anyway and if this was due to a transcription error you'd have to have made at least 2 character errors to not have check digit mismatch (in which case you must be an idiot anyway!).
I created an article on Porsche 928 VIN formats and an Excel sheet for VIN check digit calculation several year ago -it was published in 928 Forum magazine. Zip of both attached.
Alan
03-26-2007, 01:45 PM
#32
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Data mining code finished up over the weekend and now results are sorted.
I made list of VIN ranges to all model years from '81 to '95 for code to check based on Jörg Austen book numbers. Lower end of range was always 1 and upper end what ever number Austen gave + 100 cars. Extra 100 just to make sure there aren't any cars hiding little above max number Austen gives.
Along with normal set for each model year also added few special sets in hopes for finding elusive two '88 US Club Sports, two '90 non airbag cars and possible true '92 MY VIN US GTS.
For each VIN, result looks like this:
So I now have checked close to 30000 VIN's if Carfax has records for them. Surprisingly many VIN's which are in correct range do have records. Results in compressed format look like this:
For comparison I have added both Austen VIN ranges and smallest and largest VIN number in 928 Registry to the table. Also added total count from Austen book for comparing it to cound based on range of VIN's which have records.
Few comments:
'81 and '82 both have almost all numbers with data starting from 0011 ('81) and 0051 ('82). I think this means that these cars are not factory prototypes or special cars as Austen says 0001-0060 should be but normal production models. For some reason Porsche started production model VIN's from these numbers. Since Carfax is not complete list of all made cars its impossible to say for sure if these two are infact lowest normal VIN's for they MY or not. I suspect they are as so few cars seem to be missing from Carfax. This means its data can be used in saying what is correct VIN range for US models within few VIN numbers.
'90 MY is instenteresting. Austen says there were two non airbag cars made for North America and gives VIN's 9061 and 9062. Boith of these have records in Carfax. 928 Registry lists data for GT in Canada with VIN 0061 while Carfax doesn't have records to it. Also check digit 7 is wrong in registry as it should be 6 if 0061 were correct. 7 is right check digit for 9061. This leads me to believe this GT is one in Carfax. So I quess this means Carfax data for Canadian cars also. Can't check it to be sure without paying for access. I also think 0063 being first to have records in 00xx set is not coincidence and 0061 and 0062 were not made at all for '90 MY.
For all other years I have presumed in here VIN range starts from 61 if actual first car with records has higher VIN. This applies to '83 MY where first record is 0063. On all other years expect those mentioned above first car to show records is 0061 or in case of early '93 MY, VIN 5061. This most likely mean if Porsche did US model prototypes or special cars they did not import them into USA or Canada.
Carfax upper end of VIN range is VIN which is highest one that has records. Austen numbers were accurate enough that I didn't have to extend search on any years.
There are few years in Austen upper limit VIN's which do not make sense. '85 VIN table is one. It appers to be copy of '84 MY table. Missing data is noted with 1) in above table. I expect correct upper limit to be very close to 2279 found as highest VIN with records in Carfax.
'86 MY VIN range is probably largest find in entire data mining operation. Upper end isn't anyting out of the ordinary. Real interesting data is that there isn't single record for VIN'n 0938-1000. Since Chuck's site do not either list records for these cars I strongly suspect there were not made at all. This would mean Porsche decided to start fresh when they introduced '86.5 with better brakes etc. Maybe they didn't know exactly how much they had old stock parts until they ran out and they decided simply to make large enough gap un VIN's so that there would be enough empty space in between. Reason why I believe some 60 VIN's were skipped over is that on all other ranges having more than two consecutive 0 records is rare. Where there are 60+, most of these cars almost certainly were not made.
In all VIN ranges I found there are total of 21161 cars. This number included those which have 0 records but VIN is in middle on range of VIN's. Only 1121 of these have 0 records. This means Carfax has over 20000 US model VIN's that have at least one record in the system. On last years there are very few 0 record cars..
Austen number of cars made for '90 MY is one single number like for all other years. If it contains 2 non airbag cars and 457 with airbag number is still off 2. This is noted as 3) in above table. Some years Austen groups Japanise cars also to same single total. This makes his totals less useful in this context.
Fourth note 4) concerns Austens misleading GTS total for '92 and '93. I have written previously in other threads about this. He groups both early and late '93 into same single total yet gives early VIN's in '92 MY pages. Austen's '93 US VIN range is obviously wrong but I have included it to above table regardless.
I was hoping this entire digging operation would reveal possible GTS prototypes made several months before. Obviously at least one car with US sidemarkers exists as such GTS was used in summer '91 to make first GTS brochure and marketing video. It was most likely prototype which was never imported to North America. As search didn't earth any more US model GTS this means there are only 406 cars to choose from for US buyers unless they import ROW model. Some of the 406 have even left the country making possible choices even smaller.
Above table also shows very clearly how small minority nineties cars are. '90-95 total is less than half of single large years like '84 and '86 MY.
Results didn't bring out mcuh totally new information but I think time spend on this was well worth it.
I made list of VIN ranges to all model years from '81 to '95 for code to check based on Jörg Austen book numbers. Lower end of range was always 1 and upper end what ever number Austen gave + 100 cars. Extra 100 just to make sure there aren't any cars hiding little above max number Austen gives.
Along with normal set for each model year also added few special sets in hopes for finding elusive two '88 US Club Sports, two '90 non airbag cars and possible true '92 MY VIN US GTS.
For each VIN, result looks like this:
Code:
VIN Year, Make and Model Results WP0JA0929BS820011 1981 PORSCHE 928 9 WP0JA0920BS820012 1981 PORSCHE 928 2 WP0JA0922BS820013 1981 PORSCHE 928 3 . . . . . . . . . WP0AA2920SS820135 1995 PORSCHE 928 GTS 7 WP0AA2922SS820136 1995 PORSCHE 928 GTS 6 WP0AA2924SS820137 1995 PORSCHE 928 GTS 7
Code:
VIN RANGE TOTAL MADE CARFAX RECORDS YEAR CARFAX AUSTEN 928REG CARFAX AUSTEN MIN AVG MAX ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 1981 0011-1668 0061-1667 0085-1650 1658 1764 0 6.1 29 1982 0051-2700 0061-2701 0057-2613 2650 2761 0 6.7 36 1983 0063-2145 0061-2145 0092-2122 2083 2087 0 7.3 31 1984 0061-3067 0061-3067 0108-3026 3007 3067 0 7.8 30 1985 0061-2279 0061-? 1) 0152-2251 2219 2292 0 7.9 35 1986 0061-0937 0061-? 2) 0087-0931 877 ? 2) 0 9.1 35 1986.5 1001-3010 ? 2)-3010 1002-2999 2010 2881 0 9.0 35 1987 0061-2481 0061-2481 0075-2466 2421 2648 0 9.5 31 1988 0061-1852 0061-1852 0081-1850 1792 2061 0 10.0 40 1989 0061-1250 0061-1250 0063-1244 1190 2059 0 10.8 34 1990 9061-9062 9061-9062 9061 2 ? 3) 7 8.0 9 1990.A 0063-0517 0061-0517 0066-0502 455 459 0 11.2 38 1991 0061-0447 0061-0447 0056-0447 387 387 0 12.2 38 1992 5061-5148 0061-5148 5061-5148 88 ? 4) 0 11.9 38 1993 0061-0162 0061-0680 0061-0162 102 190 0 12.5 24 1994 0061-0199 0061-0199 0061-0199 139 139 0 13.3 27 1995 0061-0137 0061-0137 0061-0137 77 78 2 12.3 28 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ TOTAL 21161 0 8.5 40
Few comments:
'81 and '82 both have almost all numbers with data starting from 0011 ('81) and 0051 ('82). I think this means that these cars are not factory prototypes or special cars as Austen says 0001-0060 should be but normal production models. For some reason Porsche started production model VIN's from these numbers. Since Carfax is not complete list of all made cars its impossible to say for sure if these two are infact lowest normal VIN's for they MY or not. I suspect they are as so few cars seem to be missing from Carfax. This means its data can be used in saying what is correct VIN range for US models within few VIN numbers.
'90 MY is instenteresting. Austen says there were two non airbag cars made for North America and gives VIN's 9061 and 9062. Boith of these have records in Carfax. 928 Registry lists data for GT in Canada with VIN 0061 while Carfax doesn't have records to it. Also check digit 7 is wrong in registry as it should be 6 if 0061 were correct. 7 is right check digit for 9061. This leads me to believe this GT is one in Carfax. So I quess this means Carfax data for Canadian cars also. Can't check it to be sure without paying for access. I also think 0063 being first to have records in 00xx set is not coincidence and 0061 and 0062 were not made at all for '90 MY.
For all other years I have presumed in here VIN range starts from 61 if actual first car with records has higher VIN. This applies to '83 MY where first record is 0063. On all other years expect those mentioned above first car to show records is 0061 or in case of early '93 MY, VIN 5061. This most likely mean if Porsche did US model prototypes or special cars they did not import them into USA or Canada.
Carfax upper end of VIN range is VIN which is highest one that has records. Austen numbers were accurate enough that I didn't have to extend search on any years.
There are few years in Austen upper limit VIN's which do not make sense. '85 VIN table is one. It appers to be copy of '84 MY table. Missing data is noted with 1) in above table. I expect correct upper limit to be very close to 2279 found as highest VIN with records in Carfax.
'86 MY VIN range is probably largest find in entire data mining operation. Upper end isn't anyting out of the ordinary. Real interesting data is that there isn't single record for VIN'n 0938-1000. Since Chuck's site do not either list records for these cars I strongly suspect there were not made at all. This would mean Porsche decided to start fresh when they introduced '86.5 with better brakes etc. Maybe they didn't know exactly how much they had old stock parts until they ran out and they decided simply to make large enough gap un VIN's so that there would be enough empty space in between. Reason why I believe some 60 VIN's were skipped over is that on all other ranges having more than two consecutive 0 records is rare. Where there are 60+, most of these cars almost certainly were not made.
In all VIN ranges I found there are total of 21161 cars. This number included those which have 0 records but VIN is in middle on range of VIN's. Only 1121 of these have 0 records. This means Carfax has over 20000 US model VIN's that have at least one record in the system. On last years there are very few 0 record cars..
Austen number of cars made for '90 MY is one single number like for all other years. If it contains 2 non airbag cars and 457 with airbag number is still off 2. This is noted as 3) in above table. Some years Austen groups Japanise cars also to same single total. This makes his totals less useful in this context.
Fourth note 4) concerns Austens misleading GTS total for '92 and '93. I have written previously in other threads about this. He groups both early and late '93 into same single total yet gives early VIN's in '92 MY pages. Austen's '93 US VIN range is obviously wrong but I have included it to above table regardless.
I was hoping this entire digging operation would reveal possible GTS prototypes made several months before. Obviously at least one car with US sidemarkers exists as such GTS was used in summer '91 to make first GTS brochure and marketing video. It was most likely prototype which was never imported to North America. As search didn't earth any more US model GTS this means there are only 406 cars to choose from for US buyers unless they import ROW model. Some of the 406 have even left the country making possible choices even smaller.
Above table also shows very clearly how small minority nineties cars are. '90-95 total is less than half of single large years like '84 and '86 MY.
Results didn't bring out mcuh totally new information but I think time spend on this was well worth it.
03-26-2007, 03:04 PM
#33
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Fascinating information Erkka! Nice bit of research. A year or 2 back I had put together a spreadsheet of the global 928 production and U.S. Sales from some of my sources here at work. My sales information lists the number of units sold in a calendar year. When I sum up 1981-1996 (incl. tourist deliveries), I get 20,684. Pretty close to what you have, but as you deduce, your numbers may include some canadian cars.
Anyway, great information! Thanks for doing this..
Anyway, great information! Thanks for doing this..
03-26-2007, 03:27 PM
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Interesting project, confirms my GTS info(error in my count 
will be fixed - 406 is the right number[edit - fixed count on early 93s, 88 is the correct number, the rest of my GTS numbers are/were correct]). Any of it I can use on my website (with proper credit of course)?
will be fixed - 406 is the right number[edit - fixed count on early 93s, 88 is the correct number, the rest of my GTS numbers are/were correct]). Any of it I can use on my website (with proper credit of course)?
Last edited by Chuck Z; 03-26-2007 at 04:14 PM.
03-26-2007, 03:46 PM
#35
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Erkka,
Great job, I know not so much startling new news but you did find some anomalies. We have a clearer picture now, and some theories blown.
Seems this is the best record yet!
Alan
Great job, I know not so much startling new news but you did find some anomalies. We have a clearer picture now, and some theories blown.
Seems this is the best record yet!
Alan
03-26-2007, 05:17 PM
#36
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Andrew, if some 35-40% of 1980 sales of 1,468 cars is included into 20,684 two totals are even closer. These early '81 MY cars were sold before December 31st 1980. Counting them takes total within few 100. Global production, 5sp and sunroof numbers are way off for some years though.
Chuck, email send.
Chuck, email send.
03-26-2007, 06:30 PM
#37
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Originally Posted by Vilhuer
Chuck, email send.
03-26-2007, 06:31 PM
#38
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Originally Posted by Andrew Olson
Fascinating information Erkka! Nice bit of research. A year or 2 back I had put together a spreadsheet of the global 928 production and U.S. Sales from some of my sources here at work. My sales information lists the number of units sold in a calendar year. When I sum up 1981-1996 (incl. tourist deliveries), I get 20,684. Pretty close to what you have, but as you deduce, your numbers may include some canadian cars.
Anyway, great information! Thanks for doing this..
Anyway, great information! Thanks for doing this..
03-28-2007, 02:08 AM
#39
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YOU WANT NUMBERS???
I am JUST the messenger here, but . . . YEOWZZA! 
SULTAN'S 928 COLLECTION. . . Just posted on LANDSHARKOZ:
As per title, can not verify details;
Here is the alleged list of the Sultan's 928 collection. I can not verify details.
POR 928 S4 BP2282 WPOZZZ92ZHS842022
POR 928 GTS BP2829 WPOZZZ92ZNS800486
POR 928 S4 BP2899 WPOZZZ92ZKS840224
POR 928 S4 BP2898 WPOZZZ92ZKS841579
POR 928 S4 BP2819 WPOZZZ92ZMS801603
POR 928 GTS BP2822 WPOZZZ92ZLS842002
POR 928 S4 BQ9843 WPOZZZ92ZLS842103
POR 928 S4 BP2289 WPOZZZ92ZHS840401
POR 928 S4 BH928 WPOZZZ92ZLS841269
POR 928 GTS BN9998 WPOZZZ92ZNS800492
POR 928 GTS BP2889 WPOZZZ92ZNS800982
POR 928 S4 BJ7959 WPOZZZ92ZHS840281
POR 928 S4 B9899 WPOZZZ92ZLS840831
POR 928 GTS BL9959 WPOZZZ92ZNS800680
POR 928 GTS BN928 WPOZZZ92ZR5800419
POR 928 S4 BJ9797 WPOZZZ92ZKS841232
POR 928 GTS BK8577 WPOZZZ9Z7NS801606
POR 928 GTS BK8198 WPOZZZ92ZLS842006
POR 928 BP2219 WPOZZZ92ZES841071
POR 928 S4 BP2820 WPOZZZ92ZJ5841944
POR 928 S4 BJ9753 WPOZZZ92ZKS842378
POR 928 S2 BJ7000 WPOZZZ92ZJS840532
POR 928 S KF8917 WPOZZZ92ZF3841333
POR 928 S4 BP2332 WPOZZZ92ZMS800489
POR 928 S4 BP2772 WPOZZZ92ZLS842418
POR 928 S4 BP2552 WPOZZZ92ZMS800396
POR 928 BP2838 WPOZZZ92ZMS800754
POR 928 GTS BN1030 WPOZZZ92ZRS800334
POR 928 S4 BP2328 WPOZZZ92ZKS842280
POR 928 GTS BN1022 WPOZZZ92ZRS800324
POR 928 S BH3751 WPOZZZ92ZFS840648
POR 928 GTS BP2298 WPOZZZ92ZNS808626
POR 928 GTS BN2888 WPOZZZ92ZSS800340
POR 928 S4 DPD WPOZZZ92ZLS840365
POR 928 GTS BL9289 WPOZZZ92ZNS800621
POR 928 GTS BK8118 WPOZZZ92ZLS841528
POR 928 S BL37 WPOZZZ92ZM5801301
POR 928 GTS KE9919 WPOZZZ9RZN5800989
POR 928 S BL2 WPOZZZ92ZMS800515
POR 928 GTS KE9917 WPOZZZ92ZPS800106
POR 928 S4 KE9988 WPOZZZ92ZKS840970
POR 928 GTS KE9916 WPOZZZ92ZPS800148
POR 928 S4 BJ928 WPOZZZ92ZHS841488
POR 928 GTS KE9918 WPOZZZ92ZNS800927
POR 928 S4 BH9573 WPOZZZ92ZGS841865
POR 928 S4 BL5512 WPOZZZ92ZLS841284
POR 928 BN978 WPOZZZ92ZJS840931
POR 928 BP2818 WPOZZZ92ZLS842013
POR 928 S 928S WPOZZZ92ZHS840295
POR 928 BN6188 WPOZZZ92ZJS840999
POR 928 GTS BM928 WP0ZZZ92ZNS000817
POR 928 S BM7480 WPOZZZ92ZLS842420
POR 928 S4 BL15 WPOZZZ92ZKS842470
POR 928 S4 KE1 POZZ2922HS841953
POR 928 S4 KE7925 WPO777922LS842409
SULTAN'S 928 COLLECTION. . . Just posted on LANDSHARKOZ:
As per title, can not verify details;
Here is the alleged list of the Sultan's 928 collection. I can not verify details.
POR 928 S4 BP2282 WPOZZZ92ZHS842022
POR 928 GTS BP2829 WPOZZZ92ZNS800486
POR 928 S4 BP2899 WPOZZZ92ZKS840224
POR 928 S4 BP2898 WPOZZZ92ZKS841579
POR 928 S4 BP2819 WPOZZZ92ZMS801603
POR 928 GTS BP2822 WPOZZZ92ZLS842002
POR 928 S4 BQ9843 WPOZZZ92ZLS842103
POR 928 S4 BP2289 WPOZZZ92ZHS840401
POR 928 S4 BH928 WPOZZZ92ZLS841269
POR 928 GTS BN9998 WPOZZZ92ZNS800492
POR 928 GTS BP2889 WPOZZZ92ZNS800982
POR 928 S4 BJ7959 WPOZZZ92ZHS840281
POR 928 S4 B9899 WPOZZZ92ZLS840831
POR 928 GTS BL9959 WPOZZZ92ZNS800680
POR 928 GTS BN928 WPOZZZ92ZR5800419
POR 928 S4 BJ9797 WPOZZZ92ZKS841232
POR 928 GTS BK8577 WPOZZZ9Z7NS801606
POR 928 GTS BK8198 WPOZZZ92ZLS842006
POR 928 BP2219 WPOZZZ92ZES841071
POR 928 S4 BP2820 WPOZZZ92ZJ5841944
POR 928 S4 BJ9753 WPOZZZ92ZKS842378
POR 928 S2 BJ7000 WPOZZZ92ZJS840532
POR 928 S KF8917 WPOZZZ92ZF3841333
POR 928 S4 BP2332 WPOZZZ92ZMS800489
POR 928 S4 BP2772 WPOZZZ92ZLS842418
POR 928 S4 BP2552 WPOZZZ92ZMS800396
POR 928 BP2838 WPOZZZ92ZMS800754
POR 928 GTS BN1030 WPOZZZ92ZRS800334
POR 928 S4 BP2328 WPOZZZ92ZKS842280
POR 928 GTS BN1022 WPOZZZ92ZRS800324
POR 928 S BH3751 WPOZZZ92ZFS840648
POR 928 GTS BP2298 WPOZZZ92ZNS808626
POR 928 GTS BN2888 WPOZZZ92ZSS800340
POR 928 S4 DPD WPOZZZ92ZLS840365
POR 928 GTS BL9289 WPOZZZ92ZNS800621
POR 928 GTS BK8118 WPOZZZ92ZLS841528
POR 928 S BL37 WPOZZZ92ZM5801301
POR 928 GTS KE9919 WPOZZZ9RZN5800989
POR 928 S BL2 WPOZZZ92ZMS800515
POR 928 GTS KE9917 WPOZZZ92ZPS800106
POR 928 S4 KE9988 WPOZZZ92ZKS840970
POR 928 GTS KE9916 WPOZZZ92ZPS800148
POR 928 S4 BJ928 WPOZZZ92ZHS841488
POR 928 GTS KE9918 WPOZZZ92ZNS800927
POR 928 S4 BH9573 WPOZZZ92ZGS841865
POR 928 S4 BL5512 WPOZZZ92ZLS841284
POR 928 BN978 WPOZZZ92ZJS840931
POR 928 BP2818 WPOZZZ92ZLS842013
POR 928 S 928S WPOZZZ92ZHS840295
POR 928 BN6188 WPOZZZ92ZJS840999
POR 928 GTS BM928 WP0ZZZ92ZNS000817
POR 928 S BM7480 WPOZZZ92ZLS842420
POR 928 S4 BL15 WPOZZZ92ZKS842470
POR 928 S4 KE1 POZZ2922HS841953
POR 928 S4 KE7925 WPO777922LS842409
03-28-2007, 04:42 AM
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11-24-2013, 09:42 PM
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This is all great information. Thanks for the spreadsheets and posts!
But I'm still having a hard time understanding how to tell a '77 car from a '78 based on VIN. It looks like they are both the same. Is it the title that is the definitive word? I read another post about at '77 928 and people commented that maybe it was a '78 titled as a '77. How could that happen?
But I'm still having a hard time understanding how to tell a '77 car from a '78 based on VIN. It looks like they are both the same. Is it the title that is the definitive word? I read another post about at '77 928 and people commented that maybe it was a '78 titled as a '77. How could that happen?
11-25-2013, 08:06 AM
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Usually next calendar year production starts right after summer vacation during which factory is shut down for few weeks all necessary changes are made into production line for next MY production. In '78 MY ROW market production was started earlier as it was first MY. Thats why there are early cars that were registered much earlier than in normal years. First cars made in spring 1977 were already '78 MY. They were just registered almost year ahead of calendar year change.
For example first ROW pre production cars like 9288100016 were done already in February 1977. US model production start was later and done at about same time as normally. 9288200016 in August 1977. '77 MY 928 do not exist.
Title and first registration is meaningless as car can stay unregistered for years after it was done. Last brand new GTS were registered in December 1996 in some countries even though they had been made already in summer 1995 some 18 months before.
For example first ROW pre production cars like 9288100016 were done already in February 1977. US model production start was later and done at about same time as normally. 9288200016 in August 1977. '77 MY 928 do not exist.
Title and first registration is meaningless as car can stay unregistered for years after it was done. Last brand new GTS were registered in December 1996 in some countries even though they had been made already in summer 1995 some 18 months before.
11-25-2013, 01:32 PM
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Because they are just showing how many were made and/or registered in each calendar year. They don't tell anything about what MY those cars were. MY specific info is now known much better than six years ago.
https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...in-thread.html
https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...in-thread.html
