Installing Andy's Intercooler - help.
#16
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 1,577
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok, this may or may not help since I was using an experimental pre-production manifold. This is how my SC was bolted, and i marked in 'red' where i think the intercooler would be bolted. Since the mounting surface of the intercooler is offset from the face of the IC, I believe that the IC should be able to clear the SC mounting bolts:
#17
Under the Lift
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Thread Starter
Mike, et al:
This is great info. I have the setup with the separate middle and top pieces. I do have the correct bottom piece for the IC, just not shown in my photo.
Yes, I can see the intercooler will allow the SC to be bolted to the top, as you show above, using short bolts instead of the long through-bolts and spacers.
The red dots are where the current 6mm bolt-spacers are. Can't I just leave them in place? I was going to remove the nuts, slip the IC over the bolt shanks and put the nuts back on to fasten the IC to the underside of the top plate. The 6mm bolt-spacers penetrate the top plate, so there is no need to use short bolts or Allens. I gather you are saying the bottom of the IC setup is a bit beefier and does not need the spacers.
This is great info. I have the setup with the separate middle and top pieces. I do have the correct bottom piece for the IC, just not shown in my photo.
Yes, I can see the intercooler will allow the SC to be bolted to the top, as you show above, using short bolts instead of the long through-bolts and spacers.
The red dots are where the current 6mm bolt-spacers are. Can't I just leave them in place? I was going to remove the nuts, slip the IC over the bolt shanks and put the nuts back on to fasten the IC to the underside of the top plate. The 6mm bolt-spacers penetrate the top plate, so there is no need to use short bolts or Allens. I gather you are saying the bottom of the IC setup is a bit beefier and does not need the spacers.
#18
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 1,577
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Bill Ball
The red dots are where the current 6mm bolt-spacers are. Can't I just leave them in place? I was going to remove the nuts, slip the IC over the bolt shanks and put the nuts back on to fasten the IC to the underside of the top plate. The 6mm bolt-spacers penetrate the top plate, so there is no need to use short bolts or Allens. I gather you are saying the bottom of the IC setup is a bit beefier and does not need the spacers.
When you say "nuts", are you referring to the spacers? The spacer setup you have is a little different than what i'm accustomed to seeing, so my logic might be off.
If you use the spacers to secure the intercooler, won't the spacers stick down lower and possibly interfere with the bottom portion of the manifold?
#19
Under the Lift
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Thread Starter
Mike:
The large spacers are coming out. Those are in the IC area. Elsewhere Andy used 6mm bolts as spacers. You can see them in the photo below circled in red. He drilled a hole in the top plate, dropped the bolt through and put a nut on it. He cut the bolt to the right length so it would make contact with the bottom plate. He put another nut on the end of the bolt. The intercooler mount holes seem to match up with at least 4 of them.
The large spacers are coming out. Those are in the IC area. Elsewhere Andy used 6mm bolts as spacers. You can see them in the photo below circled in red. He drilled a hole in the top plate, dropped the bolt through and put a nut on it. He cut the bolt to the right length so it would make contact with the bottom plate. He put another nut on the end of the bolt. The intercooler mount holes seem to match up with at least 4 of them.
#20
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 1,577
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ooooh, i get it. I wasn't even paying attention to those bolt-style spacers. Those are actually the ones i'm familiar with.
So... does that mean that you don't have enough holes drilled/tapped in the upper-portion of the manifold to full mount the intercooler, or just that 4 of those holes are shared with the spacers?
With this new perspective, i'd say there shouldn't be a problem maintaining the spacers when installing the IC... but i'm not 100% sure. If it all bolts up and fits, i'd say its fine. Make sure you use locktite on all this stuff
So... does that mean that you don't have enough holes drilled/tapped in the upper-portion of the manifold to full mount the intercooler, or just that 4 of those holes are shared with the spacers?
With this new perspective, i'd say there shouldn't be a problem maintaining the spacers when installing the IC... but i'm not 100% sure. If it all bolts up and fits, i'd say its fine. Make sure you use locktite on all this stuff
#21
Under the Lift
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Thread Starter
I can't wait to pop this in, although I don't have the radiator yet. I gather something like a Suzuki GSXR radiator would work, perhaps placed in the wheel well behind the headlight. Something with its own fan. Motorcycle salvage yard, here I come. I have the 6.5 pulley. We're talking 400 club, I believe. Anyway, need to get the car smogged in stock configuration, then reinstall.
#22
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Originally Posted by Bill Ball
I can't wait to pop this in, although I don't have the radiator yet. I gather something like a Suzuki GSXR radiator would work, perhaps placed in the wheel well behind the headlight. Something with its own fan. Motorcycle salvage yard, here I come. I have the 6.5 pulley. We're talking 400 club, I believe. Anyway, need to get the car smogged in stock configuration, then reinstall.
I used one off a ford cobra. I removed my cooling flaps to put it in. Once again, more work than just the cycle radiator most use.
The mustang guys like to upgrade to the bigger Heat exchangers so you may find one for sale in the classifieds.
I paid 100 bucks for mine.
try the usual ford mustang type forums.
svt..corral..etc
Im eventually planning on adding fans as well...simialr to the ones i think Murp uses on the back side of the radiator.
#23
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 1,577
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Bill Ball
I can't wait to pop this in, although I don't have the radiator yet. I gather something like a Suzuki GSXR radiator would work, perhaps placed in the wheel well behind the headlight. Something with its own fan. Motorcycle salvage yard, here I come. I have the 6.5 pulley. We're talking 400 club, I believe. Anyway, need to get the car smogged in stock configuration, then reinstall.
#24
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Originally Posted by mspiegle
a heater core from a minivan can be had new for relatively cheap. I was thinking of adapting one of the performance oriented ford-cobra heat exchangers, but never got around to it.
The stock one will fit, but the bigger one you see in the pic is too big if i recall.
I had the dimensions and made a card mock up...just not quite enough room.
the heater core idea is perfectly fine as well...as long as whatever you get receives airflow!
#25
Under the Lift
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Thread Starter
I was thinking a radiator from a small motorcycle, like this one from a Kawi EX250. Used for about $50 on eBay. Add a 12v 2-3 gallon/min water pump. Stick it behind the headlight. No additional reservoir.
#26
Rennlist Member
Bill, that looks like a good start -- after you've run it a bit, you can always add a reservoir later if you feel the need. I can't help but think that for your more extreme application, ORR, something with a bit more airflow might prove necessary. It's a real easy subsystem to modify and tinker with, though if you make significant changes in IC efficiency it might require tweaking your maps a bit.
#28
Under the Lift
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Thread Starter
Charley:
Probably weekend after this one. I probably won't get the car smogged until this weekend.
Dave:
I don't see how a reservoir accomplishes much. If the pump is pushing the same amount of water per minute through the IC and radiator, then wouldn't there be the same amount of heating and cooling? The reservoir is just like a capacitor, meaning that it just takes longer for the water to heat up initially.
Probably weekend after this one. I probably won't get the car smogged until this weekend.
Dave:
I don't see how a reservoir accomplishes much. If the pump is pushing the same amount of water per minute through the IC and radiator, then wouldn't there be the same amount of heating and cooling? The reservoir is just like a capacitor, meaning that it just takes longer for the water to heat up initially.
#29
Gluteus Maximus
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,365
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bill, FWIW Corky Bell (from his book, Maximum Boost) would probably disagree with your choices of:
1. No Reservoir:
2. A Big Cooler:
3. Only a 2-3 gal/min Water Pump:
Corky is a bit old-school and I disagree with a lot of what he says, but he definately has a lot of experience. Your application may be a bit different too (ie, sustained high speed runs at full boost?).
1. No Reservoir:
RESERVOIRS. The size of the reservoir is of prime importance to the efficiency of the water-based IC. Consider that most applications of boost will last only a few seconds—say, 15 as a high average. Then it is reasonable to be sure in this interval that any given piece of water will not see the IC unit twice. A pump capability of 10 gallons per minute will move 2.5 gallons in 15 seconds; thus, the ideal size of the reservoir here is 2.5 gallons. Unreasonably large, obviously, but the point is made that the bigger the reservoir, the greater the time until the water takes its second lap through the IC. It is not too difficult to see that as a larger reservoir is used, the need for a front cooler decreases. Consider that the greater the mass of water, the greater the thermal inertia.
FRONT COOLER. The front cooler is the least important part of the IC system, as it is doing most of its work when the vehicle is not operating under boost. At the start of a boost run, the entire system will be at approximately ambient temperature. As boost rises, heating the water in the main core, this heated water must get to the front core before it has any temperature difference with which to drive the heat out. This time delay can be as long as 7 or 8 seconds, depending on the size of the reservoir. That amount of time is typical of a boost application. It is clear, then, that the front cooler will do most of its work after the boost run. Since the temperature difference between the water and the front core is small compared to the temperature difference between the boost charge and the water, the time required to cool the water down is much greater than the time required to heat it up. This is another reason for running the water pumps all the time. The front core does not need to be as big as it may seem at first glance, because the relative cfm rates through the two cores will usually be heavily biased toward the front cooler. For example, a forward velocity of just 60 mph could potentially put 5280 cfm through a cooler of 1 square foot area. Surely it is another case of bigger is better, but not really enough better to get carried away with huge front coolers.
WATER PUMPS. Easily the most usable pumps are 12-volt marine bilge pumps. These can be ganged in series or parallel, depending on pressure and flow capability of the pumps. The fundamental should not be overlooked that the more water circulated, the greater the IC efficiency. Consider a water flow rate of 10 gallons per minute a reasonable minimum. There is a trade-off in pump life versus IC efficiency if the pumps are required to run all the time. With performance the focus of all this work, the answer should be that the pumps run continuously. If the pumps run continuously, the interesting thing happens that when off boost, the intake air will be cooling the water in the IC.
Wiring the pumps to a switched 12-volt source will permit an audible inspection of their function every time the ignition is turned on. The pumps should be mounted as the low points of the IC system, so that they will always be primed and thus preclude the chance of their running dry.
Wiring the pumps to a switched 12-volt source will permit an audible inspection of their function every time the ignition is turned on. The pumps should be mounted as the low points of the IC system, so that they will always be primed and thus preclude the chance of their running dry.
#30
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Edmonton, Ab
Posts: 2,286
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Tony
I used one off a ford cobra. I removed my cooling flaps to put it in. Once again, more work than just the cycle radiator most use.
The mustang guys like to upgrade to the bigger Heat exchangers so you may find one for sale in the classifieds.
The mustang guys like to upgrade to the bigger Heat exchangers so you may find one for sale in the classifieds.