... anyway I bet it's on a need-to-know basis, right Mark? 
Lest we forget what a 928 was...
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 453
Likes: 0
Lest we forget what a 928 was...
The photos of the maybe-will-be Panamera - really sharp - remind us what a 928 Porsche was built to be - and actually still is.
The Panamera is along the lines of current popular design - sharp, sporty, but also reserved and conservative - no wings, no radical flairs, no scoops, and even probably 4 doors. The Panmera is to be a luxurious, elegant, luxury performance touring car.
So, too, the 928.
Those of us who lament that the 928 is "a bit on the heavy side" or "a bit lacking in power", are forgetting what a 928 was built to be. Had it been built as an all out and out drag racing street warrior, it would have come with forged internal motor components, limited slip (not in early models), and about 200 to 300 pounds less in luxury items - from the interior to sound deadening...
A performance chip and a Bola exhaust in later models puts the S4 and GT well into the league of current GTs. If in near restoration condition, other than all wheel drive, there is little the Panamera can do that a 928 can not - with maybe a 5 percent difference in performance. That extra 5% would cost you 10 times as much to have.
While the 928 can be made into a race car or street warrior, the cost of doing so is fairly higher than doing the same to a Chevy - and at the farthest ends the components do not really exist for the 928. But the 928 is road car, not a bracket racer. It is to easy to forget the luxury of the ride and the extreme handling ability that otherwise would contradict comfort that the 928 offers. And with 500 hp well within the range of the 928 if boosted, with a turbo or SC kit, you match the Panamera in power - and do so without any internal motor or drivetrain modificaions - just a bolt on kit.
I do not think it is either weight or lack of power that is pulling our cars down. Rather, it is the deteriorating conditions of the interiors probably more than any other reason. Even if well preserved, they have lost their crisp, tight appearance. And the interiors are dated in design.
Though there are many a sharp customized 928 out there (though less and less being done), a true adventure would be to design a new dash layout for the 928 - in the current wrap-around cockpit design.
Anyway, the photos of the Panamera remind what the Porsche 928 was "back then".
If what makes this no longer so is what bothers you? All you need is add an SC or turbo kit, spring for that new paint job, and have a shop sew you up new front leather seats... add 18 inch wheels with appropriate tires, and you still have an incredibly fast, wonderfully agile, very comfortable, and eye catching exotic luxury GT touring car that approaches 200 mph, will kill and Vette, and reduce Boxsters and even most Carreras to lesser machines.
It is easy to forget - probably because our motors sound and look so bad-*** - that the 928 was not built to be a race car, but rather a very high performance sport luxury touring car.
Mark O
The Panamera is along the lines of current popular design - sharp, sporty, but also reserved and conservative - no wings, no radical flairs, no scoops, and even probably 4 doors. The Panmera is to be a luxurious, elegant, luxury performance touring car.
So, too, the 928.
Those of us who lament that the 928 is "a bit on the heavy side" or "a bit lacking in power", are forgetting what a 928 was built to be. Had it been built as an all out and out drag racing street warrior, it would have come with forged internal motor components, limited slip (not in early models), and about 200 to 300 pounds less in luxury items - from the interior to sound deadening...
A performance chip and a Bola exhaust in later models puts the S4 and GT well into the league of current GTs. If in near restoration condition, other than all wheel drive, there is little the Panamera can do that a 928 can not - with maybe a 5 percent difference in performance. That extra 5% would cost you 10 times as much to have.
While the 928 can be made into a race car or street warrior, the cost of doing so is fairly higher than doing the same to a Chevy - and at the farthest ends the components do not really exist for the 928. But the 928 is road car, not a bracket racer. It is to easy to forget the luxury of the ride and the extreme handling ability that otherwise would contradict comfort that the 928 offers. And with 500 hp well within the range of the 928 if boosted, with a turbo or SC kit, you match the Panamera in power - and do so without any internal motor or drivetrain modificaions - just a bolt on kit.
I do not think it is either weight or lack of power that is pulling our cars down. Rather, it is the deteriorating conditions of the interiors probably more than any other reason. Even if well preserved, they have lost their crisp, tight appearance. And the interiors are dated in design.
Though there are many a sharp customized 928 out there (though less and less being done), a true adventure would be to design a new dash layout for the 928 - in the current wrap-around cockpit design.
Anyway, the photos of the Panamera remind what the Porsche 928 was "back then".
If what makes this no longer so is what bothers you? All you need is add an SC or turbo kit, spring for that new paint job, and have a shop sew you up new front leather seats... add 18 inch wheels with appropriate tires, and you still have an incredibly fast, wonderfully agile, very comfortable, and eye catching exotic luxury GT touring car that approaches 200 mph, will kill and Vette, and reduce Boxsters and even most Carreras to lesser machines.
It is easy to forget - probably because our motors sound and look so bad-*** - that the 928 was not built to be a race car, but rather a very high performance sport luxury touring car.
Mark O
928 Barrister
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 4,772
Likes: 6
From: Sunnyvale, CA
I must agree with much of what you say, but must take issue with the dash. I think the 928 interior is so outrageously great and well done, it is hard to imagine anything else to do to it. The current crop of 911s starting from the 996 onward "try too hard" to outdo the earlier cars and cater to the whims of trendiness. Too much bling, too much forced form and less function. The 928 is understated and functional in the extreme. Proof of the axiom less is more. The centrally located window switches, the adjustable pod/wheel, the seating position, the elbow room as a product of the width of the simply formed body, the honest forms, the shape of the console and its perfect ergonomics, the subtle positioning of the major ***** disguised and hidden from view by the steering wheel, the almost perfect functional relationship of the interior components like the sun visors and stalks and seats. Good design functions best when you are least aware of it. And it grows on you in time, not fades into disfavor with disappointment over time. The 928 grows on me more and more with every use, but then I am Le Corbusier's "ideal man" in size: 6'-0" and perhaps that accounts for my "fit". It is the interior in the envelope that grew from that interior that is the 928's greatest forte. The only criticisms I have are two: the position of the shifter in the manual cars, and the position of the throttle pedal. I would prefer an adjustment of the shifter, but it is a moot point for me because I only want an automatic car. I will someday adjust the pedal. And the seat padding in the driver's bottom section under my legs could use more thickness to support my underthighs more. I shall someday remedy that fault by increasing the size of the padding.
My love and lust for the 911 is rapidly waning as I use my 928. And the factory's attempt to cater to trendy interior and exterior fads and preconceptions is an increasing disappointment for me. Even the door latches on the later cars make me nauseated with disappointment: close the door of an early 911 or 928 and listen to the latch. Then try it with the later cars. Ugh! May as well have GM do it. Junk.
Elegance? Not there like the early 911s and the 928. I see rice all over the later cars. And from what I've heard, it is all over the interior fittings and build details also. Maybe I should look for a large piece of Nori sea vegetable and wrap it around a new 997 and I would then have a large sushi.
I'll keep my 928 thank you. Some forms in life are timeless. The Ise Shrine. The Parthenon. A bird's egg. The form of a predatory cat or shark or bird. And a 928 shark also. A functional artform, fit for its intended function, which as has been stated, is not a dragster, but a high speed grand touring machine, that, because if its interior also allows trips to the supermarket and camping or the concert hall. What a success. It incites jealousy and resentment in the eyes of others. May they eat their insecure and immature hearts out.
My love and lust for the 911 is rapidly waning as I use my 928. And the factory's attempt to cater to trendy interior and exterior fads and preconceptions is an increasing disappointment for me. Even the door latches on the later cars make me nauseated with disappointment: close the door of an early 911 or 928 and listen to the latch. Then try it with the later cars. Ugh! May as well have GM do it. Junk.
Elegance? Not there like the early 911s and the 928. I see rice all over the later cars. And from what I've heard, it is all over the interior fittings and build details also. Maybe I should look for a large piece of Nori sea vegetable and wrap it around a new 997 and I would then have a large sushi.
I'll keep my 928 thank you. Some forms in life are timeless. The Ise Shrine. The Parthenon. A bird's egg. The form of a predatory cat or shark or bird. And a 928 shark also. A functional artform, fit for its intended function, which as has been stated, is not a dragster, but a high speed grand touring machine, that, because if its interior also allows trips to the supermarket and camping or the concert hall. What a success. It incites jealousy and resentment in the eyes of others. May they eat their insecure and immature hearts out.
Rennlist Member
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 29,828
Likes: 218
From: saratoga, ca
Is there any car in the world that is over 10 years old that can be minor modded like the holbert car and be anywhere NEAR as fast?? Nope! plus the holbert car is over 20 years old!
I have less bolt ons than a common mustang at a highschool near you. street sport suspension, wheels and tires and a set of headers! 1:47.9 at sears point. 1:40.2 at laguna seca, running top 10 Speedvision GT times at sears or laguna in 1999 or 2000!
no substitute........not even a 911T
all of the guys i compete against have had to have their chassis stiffened, cage needs to used to do this. suspension points completely altered, chips, ecu's, bigger brakes added, fenders modifed , CF hoods, bumpers, doors . when guys look at my car at the races, and ive done NOTHING to it except some minor mods, they just shake their heads. my 928 is just gutted, with minor mods. No other car can do this! now, start looking at new vipers, vets, etc, then you got a chance. but 10 years old, for get it . Porsche did this one RIGHT!
(talk about cheap.... total race car conversion is headers, wheels tires, and cage with the normal safety equip) 75 race days later, only amzoil oil changes and i think plugs , caps and rotors a couple of years ago! and that alignment?? oh yeah, that was 5 years ago. ha ha.
MK
I have less bolt ons than a common mustang at a highschool near you. street sport suspension, wheels and tires and a set of headers! 1:47.9 at sears point. 1:40.2 at laguna seca, running top 10 Speedvision GT times at sears or laguna in 1999 or 2000!
no substitute........not even a 911T
all of the guys i compete against have had to have their chassis stiffened, cage needs to used to do this. suspension points completely altered, chips, ecu's, bigger brakes added, fenders modifed , CF hoods, bumpers, doors . when guys look at my car at the races, and ive done NOTHING to it except some minor mods, they just shake their heads. my 928 is just gutted, with minor mods. No other car can do this! now, start looking at new vipers, vets, etc, then you got a chance. but 10 years old, for get it . Porsche did this one RIGHT!
(talk about cheap.... total race car conversion is headers, wheels tires, and cage with the normal safety equip) 75 race days later, only amzoil oil changes and i think plugs , caps and rotors a couple of years ago! and that alignment?? oh yeah, that was 5 years ago. ha ha.
MK
Burning Brakes
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 819
Likes: 0
From: Staffordshire United Kingdom
[QUOTE=DFWX]
It is easy to forget - probably because our motors sound and look so bad-*** - that the 928 was not built to be a race car, but rather a very high performance sport luxury touring car.
Mark O[/QUOTE
Couldn't have put it better myself!
It is easy to forget - probably because our motors sound and look so bad-*** - that the 928 was not built to be a race car, but rather a very high performance sport luxury touring car.
Mark O[/QUOTE
Couldn't have put it better myself!
928 Collector
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,270
Likes: 5
From: Seattle
Personally I think the 928 was built, and continue to evolve, as a massive ERECTOR SET .... it is so versatile as to be everything to every owner. If you desire a racecar it is that. If you desire a luxury cruiser it is that. If you desire a fun little runabout or a powerhaus ballbuster streetrod ... it's that.
Trending Topics
Rennlist Stories
The Best Porsche Posts for Porsche Enthusiasts
9 Features and Characteristics That Only Porsche People Understand
Verdad Gallardo
I've Written 500 Rennlist Articles: Here's How Porsche Has Changed Along the Way
Joe Kucinski
10 Most Unnecessary Porsches Ever Built (And Why We Love Them)
Verdad Gallardo
Porsche 911 GT3 S/C vs 718 Spyder RS: 10 Categories, One Winner
Joe Kucinski
This Builder Is Turning Heads With Its Slantnose 911 Creation
Verdad Gallardo
Porsche 911 GT3 Artisan Edition Pays Homage to Japanese Culture
Verdad Gallardo
Porsche Reveals Coupe Variant of the Electric Cayenne With a Fresh Look
Verdad Gallardo
10 Porsche Colors That Have More Personality Than Most People
Verdad Gallardo
Guntherwerks' Final Speedster Creation Is the Ultimate Porsche Restomod
Verdad Gallardo
Banned
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 9,700
Likes: 147
From: https://rlsafespace.com/
Originally Posted by John Veninger
The most famous quote about the 928 from Excellence mag. back in 1990.
"The throne for the gods"
"The throne for the gods"
hmmm, so does this imply we are all gods? HA! I KNEW IT!!! excuse me, I hafta go smite some folks.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 453
Likes: 0
Of my comments concerning the dash/interior... The 928 interior also is an element that was radically different from any previous Porsche - among the many, many radical differences. I agree in the sense that the 928 came with an interior oozing with elegance, well-laid out, and vast other compliments. It was clear that Porsche wanted to pre-empt any of "a bit to spartan" interiors as was often the critic of Prosche and other German cars.
It is very difficult to keep leather looking new and crisp - not just not torn. Most our 928s that still do not have split dashes have ones where the leather is pulling away from the vents. The interors, even most well preserved ones, have many, many taletell signs of age. It is hard, therefore, for me to fully appreciate the 928 interior.
My 1986.5 is a TOTAL interior restoration or redo - whichever I pick. While I could put in another very clean interior off a likely later model (not cheap), this will not give it a new interior, but rather one likely to clearly look like a well cared for old one.
I do not see my 928s as antiques, vintage collectables or dated machines. Their styling is not outdated. Their appearance under the hood certainly does not look outdated, nor is their suspension or drivetrain (other than all wheel drive is now the super car standard). So I wish not to have an interior that looks old, even if well preserved.
As I now actually am doing and pursuing then near endless list of needs and decisions for this 928, there are also questions of the interior. Do I keep it all leather, for example. If not, do I try to blend in some of the components - such as having the dash flow into the center console as though appearing 1 piece, rather than various pieces put together as they are? Things of that nature.
The drivetrain limitations prevent it from being built into an ultimate road warrior in terms of performance, though it certain will be no slouch by any measure. Still, there is a significant difference between 450 horsepower and 750 horsepower.
So, in the alternative, I am pursuing a mildly customed exterior to enhance curb appeal and ponder of the interior in terms of it appearing to be a particularly clean, late model exotic high speed luxury performance cruiser - for which for the dollar I can not think of another car on earth that offers as much. For around $25K total outlay including the car and such that came with it, I should have a truly beautiful, head turning exotic cruiser that will do high 12s in the quarter, top out in the 175-180 range, can withstand notable g-forces in the turns enough to fully panic a passenger, and can carry me a thousand miles for which the fatigue factor is so low I'll probably drive around the block a couple times before stopping.
What I do not want as a result of this project is the perception of others that it is an outstanding old car.
I intent to eliminate "old" from any non-Porsche knowledgeable onlooker.
Since it appears that I can not go battling Mustany 5.0s and Cameros with Eatons on top and an NOS bottle in the trunk down at the local 1/8rh mile track due to drivetrain limitations, then the importance of other factors increases.
Mark O
It is very difficult to keep leather looking new and crisp - not just not torn. Most our 928s that still do not have split dashes have ones where the leather is pulling away from the vents. The interors, even most well preserved ones, have many, many taletell signs of age. It is hard, therefore, for me to fully appreciate the 928 interior.
My 1986.5 is a TOTAL interior restoration or redo - whichever I pick. While I could put in another very clean interior off a likely later model (not cheap), this will not give it a new interior, but rather one likely to clearly look like a well cared for old one.
I do not see my 928s as antiques, vintage collectables or dated machines. Their styling is not outdated. Their appearance under the hood certainly does not look outdated, nor is their suspension or drivetrain (other than all wheel drive is now the super car standard). So I wish not to have an interior that looks old, even if well preserved.
As I now actually am doing and pursuing then near endless list of needs and decisions for this 928, there are also questions of the interior. Do I keep it all leather, for example. If not, do I try to blend in some of the components - such as having the dash flow into the center console as though appearing 1 piece, rather than various pieces put together as they are? Things of that nature.
The drivetrain limitations prevent it from being built into an ultimate road warrior in terms of performance, though it certain will be no slouch by any measure. Still, there is a significant difference between 450 horsepower and 750 horsepower.
So, in the alternative, I am pursuing a mildly customed exterior to enhance curb appeal and ponder of the interior in terms of it appearing to be a particularly clean, late model exotic high speed luxury performance cruiser - for which for the dollar I can not think of another car on earth that offers as much. For around $25K total outlay including the car and such that came with it, I should have a truly beautiful, head turning exotic cruiser that will do high 12s in the quarter, top out in the 175-180 range, can withstand notable g-forces in the turns enough to fully panic a passenger, and can carry me a thousand miles for which the fatigue factor is so low I'll probably drive around the block a couple times before stopping.
What I do not want as a result of this project is the perception of others that it is an outstanding old car.
I intent to eliminate "old" from any non-Porsche knowledgeable onlooker.
Since it appears that I can not go battling Mustany 5.0s and Cameros with Eatons on top and an NOS bottle in the trunk down at the local 1/8rh mile track due to drivetrain limitations, then the importance of other factors increases.
Mark O
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 16,271
Likes: 82
From: Stockton, CA
Mark O
I still like the interior design of the 928.....to me it still looks modern...with its gauges pivoting with the steering wheel (think 350Z)...& easy to reach controls for just about everything....nothing really is a stretch to reach (at least for me)....good ergonomics never go out of style!!! Also a well maintained 928 interior or a restored one....will look brand new....plus the seats are nothing short of amazingly comfortable!!
Your also quite right about making a 928 perform better for really not much $$$$, in comparsions to modern sports car of similar (or worse) performance......really for less than $10-15K for a S/C or turbo (one day) you'll have a 400-450+whp engine added to an upgraded suspension (think similar to Kiborts) with money leftover for bigger 18-19" wheels with serious rubber then you have a 928 that will beat most other "supercars" that cost 10x as much.....a low 12 second car that will cruise 200mph & still drive all day without being fatigued!! I almost forgot the timeless styling that never looks dated!
I still like the interior design of the 928.....to me it still looks modern...with its gauges pivoting with the steering wheel (think 350Z)...& easy to reach controls for just about everything....nothing really is a stretch to reach (at least for me)....good ergonomics never go out of style!!! Also a well maintained 928 interior or a restored one....will look brand new....plus the seats are nothing short of amazingly comfortable!!
Your also quite right about making a 928 perform better for really not much $$$$, in comparsions to modern sports car of similar (or worse) performance......really for less than $10-15K for a S/C or turbo (one day) you'll have a 400-450+whp engine added to an upgraded suspension (think similar to Kiborts) with money leftover for bigger 18-19" wheels with serious rubber then you have a 928 that will beat most other "supercars" that cost 10x as much.....a low 12 second car that will cruise 200mph & still drive all day without being fatigued!! I almost forgot the timeless styling that never looks dated!
Pro
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 598
Likes: 0
From: New Hampshire
Hmmmm, I have an all tan european leather interior with sports seats, that with the exception of a little wear on the drivers seats, is as pristine as the day it came from the factory, save the dash which I am now recovering in leather. Ad a few tasteful embellishments from Jager, and I think I will have a real eye popper. Not to shabby for a twenty year old car that's had its share of miles and still gets thumbs up and comments from passer bys.
My only wish is for improved padding in the door and center console arm rests. After a full day of driving it can get a mighty sore on my boney elbows. Maybe a good suggestion for Jager.
Gordon
My only wish is for improved padding in the door and center console arm rests. After a full day of driving it can get a mighty sore on my boney elbows. Maybe a good suggestion for Jager.
Gordon
Former Vendor
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 2,260
Likes: 1
From: Corpus Christi
The 928 interior design as a timeless quality that makes it the perfect platform for any level of restoration.
The way the dash flows into the doors and center console is already better than anything currently offered from Aston Martin and most of the other high end manufacturers. It is certainly better integrated than most of the new Porsche models.
Very little as to be done to update the look. I am working on a set of seats that will keep the original design but will replace the piping with contrasting French seams, like most of the contemporary supercars.
I already offer a set of leather pads for the armrests that adds comfort to an already perfectly designed door panel.
I am hard at work on a couple of full interiors, one of which, while true to the original design, will offer quite a few comtemporary touches.
Paul
The way the dash flows into the doors and center console is already better than anything currently offered from Aston Martin and most of the other high end manufacturers. It is certainly better integrated than most of the new Porsche models.
Very little as to be done to update the look. I am working on a set of seats that will keep the original design but will replace the piping with contrasting French seams, like most of the contemporary supercars.
I already offer a set of leather pads for the armrests that adds comfort to an already perfectly designed door panel.
I am hard at work on a couple of full interiors, one of which, while true to the original design, will offer quite a few comtemporary touches.
Paul
Burning Brakes
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,003
Likes: 1
From: Nashua New hampshire.
Not a word spoken here do i dissagree with!!!!.. Yes the interior is a great design...but from a novices eye when you come apon this seemlees shark shape ''they ''think what a modern look'' , its the interior that kills the highend look......DONT GET ME WRONG!!! for an old car its the best!!! but they are not new and the complexity of what it took to make the interior shows (because all the seems have shrunk) Iv look at over 10 928's (to purchase) and the down side was ALWAYS the condition of the interior!!! As a designer iv been looking to redesign the interior for years, and thier is plenty that could be done and still look like a 928.... no pimp my ride ****!!! The interior should of
came much smoother (less seems and crevasas) AND THIERS HOPE!!! with so many SHARK lovers , and 2 to 3 Master leather workers just waiting for the right design and the funds, anythings possible.
came much smoother (less seems and crevasas) AND THIERS HOPE!!! with so many SHARK lovers , and 2 to 3 Master leather workers just waiting for the right design and the funds, anythings possible.
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 17,292
Likes: 2,159
From: Gone. On the Open Road
I have to agree that the interiors of most modern cars just suck. The newer Porsches' interiors don't do anything for me. I'm not a fan of the monolithic vertical dash stack that we now see in everything. I love the 'cockpit design' of the 928's center stack and how all of the lines flow around the driver.
The only thing that dates the 928's interior (besides wear) is the 'slider' type HVAC controls. Personally, I like slider controls, big *****, and controls that have distinct 'feels' to them: you can operate them without taking your eyes off the road.
Most newer cars have buttons that are all the same shape and size. Many controls offer no tactile feedback and you have to look at them or a display to figure out what you've done. And don't even get me started on LCD displays (PCM, Nav systems, I-Drive, etc.) that require you to look away from the road for every adjustment whether its climate control, seat position, or radio station. I will not buy a car with an LCD screen in it. (The new Ferrari's with an aircraft quality LCD display instead of analog gauges behind the steering wheel is another matter.)
Having to bury your head in the dash to raise your seat or adjust the HVAC is not luxury. Being able to adjust every system unerringly by touch is.
The only thing that dates the 928's interior (besides wear) is the 'slider' type HVAC controls. Personally, I like slider controls, big *****, and controls that have distinct 'feels' to them: you can operate them without taking your eyes off the road.
Most newer cars have buttons that are all the same shape and size. Many controls offer no tactile feedback and you have to look at them or a display to figure out what you've done. And don't even get me started on LCD displays (PCM, Nav systems, I-Drive, etc.) that require you to look away from the road for every adjustment whether its climate control, seat position, or radio station. I will not buy a car with an LCD screen in it. (The new Ferrari's with an aircraft quality LCD display instead of analog gauges behind the steering wheel is another matter.)
Having to bury your head in the dash to raise your seat or adjust the HVAC is not luxury. Being able to adjust every system unerringly by touch is.