Early Z06 gets eaten up by Twin Screwed 928
07-15-2006, 05:51 PM
#136
928 Barrister
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I'll try again to clarify. Please excuse me if it is a bit verbose. The MUTCD Federal Edition defines the format of the signs used on the nation's highways. It also defines what is required to be performed prior to posting those signs.
Ohio's signs do not conform to this standard contrary to Federal law. If there has been no valid engineering study performed to justify the number posted on those signs, that further aggravates the violation by the state. Don't waste your time trying to lure me into an argument over this fact. Citations must be founded on a legal notice. This notice is not legal. If in fact a proper engineering study supports the use of the numbers, it is still not legal if it does not conform to MUTCD standards. There are obvious reasons for such standards. One is interstate commerce, most notably by truckers, but also by interstate travelers and company employees who must travel the interstate highway system. Challenge the legality of the sign and what it implys. It is an arbitrary sign with an arbitrary number on it. That should be a no brainer. Please also don't try to preach to me about how we all should "obey the law" and worship our oppressors who are "trying to help us". And don't waste my time trying to convince me that our interest is at heart in the actions of the state. I know better and so does the state. I won't respnd. And don't tell me that it would be impossible to do, and if not, everyone would be doing it. Have you done it or attempted to do it? Are you prepared for a fight through the Appeals Courts? If a petitioner was granted relief on the grounds given at a lower court, do you think it likely that the cash cow system that sign represents would then voluntarily dismantle the sign and all others like it, and immediately begin complying with the federal law? Sure. Guess again. I know that it wouldn't happen from personal experience. Why would the state allow a successful appeal at the State Appeals court? It would be killed at a lower court. Doesn't change the illegality of the sign and enforcement based on it. Not until more of you decide it is time to stop allowing such an insult to your intelligence. I made the statement. I am out of here. Unless you have proof that it is legal, There is a way to establish its legality, but that is another argument. Fear that argument, for it is coming to a town and state near you soon. Your rights and health will be threatened by it. It isn't here yet.
This question has come up previously on this forum. I do not wish to debate it again. Search the archives please. If you are from California and have some desire to challenge this situation in that state, I do want to hear from you. Many people prefer to accept the regulation, however unjustified or unsupported or threatening it is to your freedom; many people don't want to take any personal responsibilty at all for their whole life. I don't want to hear from you, please. I won't answer. If you disagree with the assertions of illegality, it is your right to do so. What do I know, right? There....you win....I lose. Now you should be happy. Keep your checkbooks and a first aid kit handy as you drive the nation's highways.
The fact is that if that sign, (or others like it that do conform to the MUTCD) was dismantled and removed, the majority of drivers would drive not too much faster than the number you see posted there. Probably no more than 20 or 25 mph faster. They will only drive where they feel comfortable and safe, sign or no sign, and studies have proven by the amount I stated. Some would drive significantly faster, and those would suffer the least injuries and accidents. And as driver and vehicle competence improved, the average speeds would increase....safely. These are facts that are proven scientifically. The sign is arbitrary and capricious and self serving to your detriment.
Ohio's signs do not conform to this standard contrary to Federal law. If there has been no valid engineering study performed to justify the number posted on those signs, that further aggravates the violation by the state. Don't waste your time trying to lure me into an argument over this fact. Citations must be founded on a legal notice. This notice is not legal. If in fact a proper engineering study supports the use of the numbers, it is still not legal if it does not conform to MUTCD standards. There are obvious reasons for such standards. One is interstate commerce, most notably by truckers, but also by interstate travelers and company employees who must travel the interstate highway system. Challenge the legality of the sign and what it implys. It is an arbitrary sign with an arbitrary number on it. That should be a no brainer. Please also don't try to preach to me about how we all should "obey the law" and worship our oppressors who are "trying to help us". And don't waste my time trying to convince me that our interest is at heart in the actions of the state. I know better and so does the state. I won't respnd. And don't tell me that it would be impossible to do, and if not, everyone would be doing it. Have you done it or attempted to do it? Are you prepared for a fight through the Appeals Courts? If a petitioner was granted relief on the grounds given at a lower court, do you think it likely that the cash cow system that sign represents would then voluntarily dismantle the sign and all others like it, and immediately begin complying with the federal law? Sure. Guess again. I know that it wouldn't happen from personal experience. Why would the state allow a successful appeal at the State Appeals court? It would be killed at a lower court. Doesn't change the illegality of the sign and enforcement based on it. Not until more of you decide it is time to stop allowing such an insult to your intelligence. I made the statement. I am out of here. Unless you have proof that it is legal, There is a way to establish its legality, but that is another argument. Fear that argument, for it is coming to a town and state near you soon. Your rights and health will be threatened by it. It isn't here yet.
This question has come up previously on this forum. I do not wish to debate it again. Search the archives please. If you are from California and have some desire to challenge this situation in that state, I do want to hear from you. Many people prefer to accept the regulation, however unjustified or unsupported or threatening it is to your freedom; many people don't want to take any personal responsibilty at all for their whole life. I don't want to hear from you, please. I won't answer. If you disagree with the assertions of illegality, it is your right to do so. What do I know, right? There....you win....I lose. Now you should be happy. Keep your checkbooks and a first aid kit handy as you drive the nation's highways.
The fact is that if that sign, (or others like it that do conform to the MUTCD) was dismantled and removed, the majority of drivers would drive not too much faster than the number you see posted there. Probably no more than 20 or 25 mph faster. They will only drive where they feel comfortable and safe, sign or no sign, and studies have proven by the amount I stated. Some would drive significantly faster, and those would suffer the least injuries and accidents. And as driver and vehicle competence improved, the average speeds would increase....safely. These are facts that are proven scientifically. The sign is arbitrary and capricious and self serving to your detriment.
Last edited by Ron_H; 07-15-2006 at 06:25 PM.
07-16-2006, 11:45 AM
#137
Racer
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I really dislike the COPS shows in which they portray citizens as laughably stupid.
Of the high speed chase videos, usually it is a drunk in a pickup truck or 23 year old sedan.
A person can not out run a radio. But it also is extreme difficult to figure a ticket on a high speed car that is only caught miles down the road parked, with two people of it sitting inside a restaurant who then both take the 5th.
I set a rule that I would never run from red lights behind me for rather obvious reasons.
In my life I have twice, in a sense, run for police. Once was such an odd situation it really was not about police, but about some guys in a 300 turbo Z with a gun and I with my family - us in a Maserati BiTurbo truly out in the middle of nowhere. We were moving so fast there was no opportunity on the hilly road
for redlights to be behind and we were just gone at around 160ish - covering each mile in under 20 seconds.
The other time was urban in a Lincoln Mark VII, but did not know it was police and no red lights were turned on. After a night time road rage situation, a car started pursuing me for which I made a run for it - from what I thought was the maniac - and not knowing it was police. After about a 10 minute NASCAR/stock car type street race, I got alway. Only later did I learn it was the police - who acknowledged no red lights had been turned and and therefore I could not have known it was a police cruiser giving chase. The reason the officer gave for giving chase was he suspected mine might have been a stolen car.
The seriousness now of the offense of evading or fleeing the police is so great that it never makes sense.
Mark O
Of the high speed chase videos, usually it is a drunk in a pickup truck or 23 year old sedan.
A person can not out run a radio. But it also is extreme difficult to figure a ticket on a high speed car that is only caught miles down the road parked, with two people of it sitting inside a restaurant who then both take the 5th.
I set a rule that I would never run from red lights behind me for rather obvious reasons.
In my life I have twice, in a sense, run for police. Once was such an odd situation it really was not about police, but about some guys in a 300 turbo Z with a gun and I with my family - us in a Maserati BiTurbo truly out in the middle of nowhere. We were moving so fast there was no opportunity on the hilly road
for redlights to be behind and we were just gone at around 160ish - covering each mile in under 20 seconds.
The other time was urban in a Lincoln Mark VII, but did not know it was police and no red lights were turned on. After a night time road rage situation, a car started pursuing me for which I made a run for it - from what I thought was the maniac - and not knowing it was police. After about a 10 minute NASCAR/stock car type street race, I got alway. Only later did I learn it was the police - who acknowledged no red lights had been turned and and therefore I could not have known it was a police cruiser giving chase. The reason the officer gave for giving chase was he suspected mine might have been a stolen car.
The seriousness now of the offense of evading or fleeing the police is so great that it never makes sense.
Mark O
07-16-2006, 02:58 PM
#138
Road Warrior
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
good point mark! course, the old "someone was chasing me w/a gun" is a useful classic and much easier/more useful than the old "my wife is having a baby" - especially in the LA area cause it's so common/believable. and they have to prove intent too - so if they start chasing far enough behind and you go so fast they can't catch up - it can be argued you didn't see them (from a jail cell though)... course, if they are on your bumper or set up a roadblock....duh, the party is over!
07-16-2006, 04:11 PM
#139
928 Barrister
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I did it too. I didn't know there was policeman behind me on a Harley. I found out later at a Porsche Club meeting where he came to give a speech. Later he asked who I was and I came forward. He said he couldn't catch me with his Hog. I told him I didn't know he was trying, I was just exercising the 911 
He was mostly pissed because it happened in front of him. He made me promise not to ever do that again, and gave me some good advice on how to avoid such a situation in the future. I won't share what he said. We made friends. I like the guy.
He was mostly pissed because it happened in front of him. He made me promise not to ever do that again, and gave me some good advice on how to avoid such a situation in the future. I won't share what he said. We made friends. I like the guy.