BC

new Fuel station in San Diego. Ethanol mixed with gasoline. High octane, low specific energy content, but HP usually goes up on cars that deal with it well.

I was going to try it, and its cheaper too, by about 50 cents, it seems. Haven't gone yet.

Ethanol is more corrosive, correct?

kurtb234

The E85 will give you less power, and less gas milage. About a 40% decrease in the milage! I would NOT try it in my 928!

Loaded

it is great for cleaning your cars intake track. Use it once a year on a long trip. Most e85 vehicles get worse mileage and and less power. ETOH is a great cleaning tool for our engines. The by product of this fuel is water so be ready to change your oil after using it.

BC

I think the less gas mileage will be the issue for many.

At least when the cars are specifically tuned to be able to "switch" maps when the 02 sensor senses the parameters of the E85, there is an actual increase in power production, tested by Car and Driver in its latest issue.

I think if someone is replacing fuel line, or doing a build up of a car, they should include what is needed to run this fuel in thier plans. I will try and heed my own advice.

BC

I can do the same with my AEM or Megasquirt plans.

Here is some more info though, and it mentions aluminum. But AL is used on most heads today anyway, so...

Risks

E85 can cause damage, since prolonged exposure to high concentrations of ethanol may corrode metal and rubber parts in older engines (pre-1988) designed primarily for gasoline. The hydroxyl group on the ethanol molecule is an extremely weak acid, but it can enhance corrosion for some natural materials. For post-1988 fuel-injected engines, all the components are already designed to accommodate E10 (10% ethanol) blends through the elimination of exposed magnesium and aluminum metals and natural rubber and cork gasketed parts. Hence, there is a greater degree of flexibility in just how much more ethanol may be added without causing ethanol-induced damage, varying by automobile manufacturer. Anhydrous ethanol in the absence of direct exposure to alkali metals and bases is non-corrosive; it is only when water is mixed with the ethanol that the mixture becomes corrosive to some metals. Hence, there is no appreciable difference in the corrosive properties between E10 and a 50:50 blend of E10 gasoline and E85 (47.5% ethanol), provided there is no water present, and the engine was designed to accommodate E10. Nonetheless, operation with more than 10% ethanol has never been recommended by car manufacturers in non-FFVs.

Operation on up to 20% ethanol is generally considered safe for all post 1988 cars and trucks. This equates to running a blend of 23.5% of E85. Starting in 2013[5], at least one US state (Minnesota) already has legislatively mandated and planned to force E20 (20% ethanol) into their general gasoline fuel-distribution network. Details of how this will work for individual vehicle owners while maintaining automobile manufacturer warranties, despite exceeding the manufacturer's maximum warranted operation percentage of 10% of ethanol in fuel, are still being worked as of late-2005. However, the choice of transitioning to a 20% ethanol blend of gasoline is not without precedent; Brazil, in its conversion to an ethanol-fueled economy, determined that operation with up to 22% ethanol in gasoline was safe for the cars and trucks on the road in Brazil at the time, and the conversion to a 20% blend was accomplished with only minor issues arising for older vehicles. Recently, conversion to a 24% blend was accomplished in Brazil.

In addition to corrosion, there is also a risk of increased engine wear for non-FFV engines that are not specifically designed for operation on high levels (i.e., for greater than 10%) of ethanol. The risk primarily comes in the rare event that the E85 fuel ever becomes contaminated with water. For water levels below approximately 0.5% to 1.0% contained in the ethanol, no phase separation of gasoline and ethanol occurs. For contamination with 1% or more water in the ethanol, phase separation occurs, and the ethanol and water mixture will separate from the gasoline. This can be simply observed by pouring a mixture of suspected water-contaminated E85 fuel in a clear glass tube, waiting roughly 30 minutes for the separation to occur (if it does), and then inspecting the sample. If there is water contamination of above 1% water in the ethanol, a clear separation of alcohol (with water) and gasoline will be clearly visible, with the colored gasoline floating above the clear alcohol and water mixture.

For a badly-contaminated amount of water in the ethanol and water mixture that separates from the gasoline (i.e., approximately 11% water, 89% ethanol, equivalent to 178 proof alcohol), considerable engine wear will occur, especially during times while the engine is heating up to normal operating temperatures, as for example just after starting the engine, when low temperature partial combustion of the water-contaminated ethanol mixture is taking place. This wear, caused by water-contaminated E85, is the result of the combustion process of ethanol, water, and gasoline producing considerable amounts of formic acid (HCOOH, also known as methanoic acid, and sometimes written as CH2O2).

In addition to the production of formic acid occurring for water-contaminated E85, smaller amounts of acetaldehyde (CH3CHO) and acetic acid (C2H4O2) are also formed for water-contaminated ethanol combustion. Nonetheless, it is the formic acid that is responsible for the majority of the rapid increase in engine wear.

Engines specifically designed for FFVs employ soft nitride coatings on their internal metal parts to provide formic acid wear resistance in the event of water contamination of E85 fuel. Also, the use of lubricant oil (motor oil) containing an acid neutralizer is necessary to prevent the damage of oil-lubricated engine parts in the event of water contamination of fuel. Such lubricant oil is required by at least one manufacturer of FFVs even to this day (Chrysler).

For non-FFVs burning E85 in greater than 23.5% E85 mixtures (20% ethanol), the remedy for accidentally getting a tank of water-contaminated E85 (or gasoline) while preventing excessive engine wear is to change the motor oil as soon as possible after either burning the fuel and replacing it with non-contaminated fuel, or after immediately draining and replacing the water-contaminated fuel. The risk of burning slightly water-contaminated fuel with low percentages of water (less than 1%) on a long commute is minimal; after all, it is the low temperature combustion of water contaminated ethanol and gasoline that causes the bulk of the formic acid to form; burning a slightly-contaminated mix of water (less than 1%) and ethanol quickly, in one long commute, will not likely cause any appreciable engine wear past the first 15 miles of driving, especially once the engine warms up and high temperature combustion occurs exclusively.

BC

Max power seems to be at about 7.00 for E85 for Stoich, meaning it needs WAY more fuel - which correlates with the 30% reduction in noted fuel efficiency.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85

sweanders

Many use it in Sweden since it is commonly available and about 35% less in cost then gasoline. You can run more agressive ignition since it is almost impossible to get predetonation but you need (as other pointed out) about 30% more fuel. I believe that the only real downer is that cold start enrichment can be hard to get right any many report that their E85 converted cars runs like crap before they are up to temp.

BC

Its weird that I started a nearly identical thread more than a year ago, and I made nearly the same comments, but now with links and more info since then - and I don't even remember it!

Podguy

Ethanol is a fraud. Read the literature.

Fact is a gallon of Ethanol contains fewer BTUs than a gallon of gasoline. Until someone repeals the laws of thermodynamics less energy will result in less output.

Here we have 10% Ethanol in the gas. The Hybrid gets about 10% less mileage than using gas in Oregon and Washington. Mileage dropped from 42 in the North to well below 37 here for the same type of driving.

Without the government subsidies the price of Ethanol would be a minimum of 15% more than gasoline.

Dan the Pod Guy.

sweanders

Yes, Ethanol has less energry but also higher octane. Adding more fuel to the mixture solves the problem of less energy and the higher octane is kept intact.

Another advantage is that ethanol powered engines run cooler.

From a performance perspective ethanol has advantages. Involving politics makes it more complicated.

Niels Jørgensen

I just replaced my BMW with a Saab 9-5 BioPower which runs on E85. The Saab has a 2.3L turbo engine and automatically increases boost dep. on the amount of Ethanol in the mixture. The Saab gets 210HP when running on E85, 180 (I think) when running on gasoline because of the higher octane rating and consequently higher boost.

It does use up to 30% more E85 than gasoline per mile, but E85 is 30% cheaper, so when you add in the lower tax (eco car) and more HP it does, in my opinion, come out on top - not by a large margin, but worth it. I'd never use E85 in car not specifically designed for it though.

Diesel is still cheaper i Europe, but I wonder how long?

BC

I understand that many issues are floating around on the politics and purported positives and negatives.

But as said above, you add more fuel. Up to 40% more. Then what you have is more actual fuel in each combustion event. Higher Octane, and a lower combustion and head/piston temps.

Laugh all everyone wants, but I think 700 crank is possible with a stock but prepped block. And the exhaust gas temps and piston crown temps will be kept down by the Alchohol's characteristics.

123quattro

E85 is the high boost fuel of choice. Yes, you need giant injectors and a big fuel pump. It is corrosive, but not as bad as people assume. I have a friend running it in an 80s Saab. It's been fine for two years. Long term there will be problems, but for project cars it should be fine. Range does get decreased significantly, but that's about the only real downside. It can make more power vs gasoline, but as Podguy mentioned power per specific volume of fuel is lower (thus the decreased range).

Randy V

I heard that high-ethanol content fuel attacks the soft parts (hoses, seals, etc.) of the fuel system.

True?

BC

Mostly, but not as quickly as perceived. It will also corrode Aluminum, Brass, and uncoated Steel.

Rubber, technically, can act as a sponge. Alcohol has the ability to go into the rubber itself, and make it deteriorate.

The solution to the ethanol and alcohol (and even methanol - but its a lot more dangerous) is to simply use SS hard line, or Nickel plate anything aluminum or brass. For soft line, Teflon line is used. At that point you have a 15-20 year fuel system at worst.

The pumps can get tricky because IIRC alcohol can conduct electricity. So the flow through pumps with certain designs cannot be used.

People talk about the flex fuel cars from GM and Ford. They are flex fuel because of really four changes

1) SS or Teflon lined Gas tanks
2) SS or teflon lined Fuel Lines
3) A Fuel sensor for 0-100% ethanol
4) Compatible mapping.

Ethanol has a distinct pallor around its name because of prior experiences with gasahol, which ruined cars. It has no lubricity, which makes it a bit more challenging for the upper end of an engine. Redline makes a "4 stroke alcohol fuel lube" Which I am sure can be used once in a while so things don't get too "Clean"

And alcohol soaks up water.