oil foaming
05-26-2006, 04:43 PM
#1
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
oil foaming
Silicon is a common anti foaming agent added to oils but too much silicon increases oil foaming.
AVISTAR / INTERNATIONAL DIESEL engines with Hydraulic Electronic Unit Injectors, used in Ford pickups, vans and school buses, sometimes suffer drivability problems due to oil foaming. Leaching of RTV silicone from the oil pan gasket into the oil causes the foaming.
The ASTM D 892 Foam Test, Sequences 2 and 4, are used to evaluate diesel oils on their foaming characteristics relevant to this engine.
According to test results, AMSOIL Synthetic 15W-40 Heavy Duty Diesel and Marine Oil (AME) and AMSOIL Series 2000 Synthetic 5W-30 Heavy Duty Diesel Oil (HDD) are clearly not prone to foaming or contributory to the foam-caused drivability problems of the IH engine.
The test also shows AME and HDD dissipate foam more quickly than Rotella T, a popular diesel oil often recommended by Ford. Faster foam dissipation means reduced foam related drivability problems.
You should know that silicone leaching diminishes with increased engine mileage, and in the meantime the solution to foam-induced drivability problems, regardless of oil brand in use, is an oil change.
All quality oils contain antifoam agents, usually silicone compounds. Silicone, in small quantities, is an excellent foam suppressant. Unfortunately, larger quantities actually contribute to the foam problem. AMSOIL uses the ideal quantity in the diesel oil. In fact, when test comparisons are made between AMSOIL 5W-30 or 15W-40 and Shell Rotella T 15W-40, both AMSOIL oils better controlled foam than the Rotella T.
Additional silicone can be introduced to the oil via the RTV Silicone used as a gasket and seal material that has been over-applied and has seeped out from between the sealing surfaces. This exposed RTV Silicone can produce leaching that occurs over time at a relatively constant rate. This means that an oil exposed to this added silicone for a longer time/mileage is more likely to experience this phenomena.
AVISTAR / INTERNATIONAL DIESEL engines with Hydraulic Electronic Unit Injectors, used in Ford pickups, vans and school buses, sometimes suffer drivability problems due to oil foaming. Leaching of RTV silicone from the oil pan gasket into the oil causes the foaming.
The ASTM D 892 Foam Test, Sequences 2 and 4, are used to evaluate diesel oils on their foaming characteristics relevant to this engine.
According to test results, AMSOIL Synthetic 15W-40 Heavy Duty Diesel and Marine Oil (AME) and AMSOIL Series 2000 Synthetic 5W-30 Heavy Duty Diesel Oil (HDD) are clearly not prone to foaming or contributory to the foam-caused drivability problems of the IH engine.
The test also shows AME and HDD dissipate foam more quickly than Rotella T, a popular diesel oil often recommended by Ford. Faster foam dissipation means reduced foam related drivability problems.
You should know that silicone leaching diminishes with increased engine mileage, and in the meantime the solution to foam-induced drivability problems, regardless of oil brand in use, is an oil change.
All quality oils contain antifoam agents, usually silicone compounds. Silicone, in small quantities, is an excellent foam suppressant. Unfortunately, larger quantities actually contribute to the foam problem. AMSOIL uses the ideal quantity in the diesel oil. In fact, when test comparisons are made between AMSOIL 5W-30 or 15W-40 and Shell Rotella T 15W-40, both AMSOIL oils better controlled foam than the Rotella T.
Additional silicone can be introduced to the oil via the RTV Silicone used as a gasket and seal material that has been over-applied and has seeped out from between the sealing surfaces. This exposed RTV Silicone can produce leaching that occurs over time at a relatively constant rate. This means that an oil exposed to this added silicone for a longer time/mileage is more likely to experience this phenomena.
05-26-2006, 11:05 PM
#5
Drifting
Trending Topics
05-27-2006, 12:14 PM
#8
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Glen,
One of the reasons I posted was to see if any who had experienced the 2/6 failure had used silicone sealant. Mark K uses Amsoil without bearing failure. I wonder if you could put oil in a blender to see how it foams. Why don't you try with your wife's blender?
One of the reasons I posted was to see if any who had experienced the 2/6 failure had used silicone sealant. Mark K uses Amsoil without bearing failure. I wonder if you could put oil in a blender to see how it foams. Why don't you try with your wife's blender?
05-27-2006, 02:47 PM
#9
Nordschleife Master
Rick,
Don't think I haven't thought of it! Besides it's my blender. Got it as a college sophomore.
Could be a fun demonstration/test to do at a 928 gathering. Mobil1 vs. Amsoil TRO2000 vs. Royal Purple vs Redline.
Note to the group: 3 parts tequila, 2 parts frozen limeade and 1 part tripe sec. A squirt of fresh lime juice. Add ice and blend smooth. Salted glass rims are optional. (Guess I gotta cross-post this now.)
Don't think I haven't thought of it! Besides it's my blender. Got it as a college sophomore.
Could be a fun demonstration/test to do at a 928 gathering. Mobil1 vs. Amsoil TRO2000 vs. Royal Purple vs Redline.
Note to the group: 3 parts tequila, 2 parts frozen limeade and 1 part tripe sec. A squirt of fresh lime juice. Add ice and blend smooth. Salted glass rims are optional. (Guess I gotta cross-post this now.)
05-27-2006, 11:15 PM
#11
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Dec 2002
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Hi,
Glen I love your brew - much better than engine oils!
Rick - the following is as requested and has a "general" flavour. Please do not view my comments about Amsoil as negative - just MHO
Tests that are carried out by an Oil Company (or blender in the case of Amsoil) tend to give skewed results. This is simply a case in point!
Silicon leaching from sealants has long (last 15years or so) been shown to skew Used Oil Analysis (UOA) results. It been the cause of unnecessary engine tear downs and the like. For at least the last decade I have worked with a number of Oil Company Labs and Technicians in order to ensure that an engine "history" is known before a major tear down is recommended with an excessive and sudden silicon "show". Using a silicon sealant on any gasket or surface with an oil flow around it will skew the results! This is now well known in Tribology circles
Heavy Duty Engine Oils (HDEO) have long been the subject of much dilemma for engine builders. Rick, this engine is much of the same!!
This is really because until recently the engine makers were not directly involved in determining oil quality standards with the API
The diesel engine manufacturers in that last several years were involved with the API as prime movers in formulating a new quality standard for their engines. They have all learned very hard lessons during the last 15 years or so!
Since the mid 1980s Unit Injectors in various configurations have been used in high speed heavy diesel engines. My experience has been with the two US majors - Cummins and Detroit Diesel (DD)! I was involved with the very first export DD engines (two strokes) into Australia in 1987-88. And with Cummins a little earlier (L10 and M11 engines). These primarily and initially caused high camshaft lobe wear and resulted in a rapid upgrading of the API's quality ratings
CF came first (Caterpillar 1M-PC0, then CF-4 (caterpillar 1K). Then came CG-4 (caterpillar !n, Mack EO-L) which started to address foaming, CH-4 from 1998 (low sulphur fuels) and now we are jumping over CI-4 plus! Since about 1996 the engine manufacturers have been increasingly involved in formulating the APIs diesel oil quality standards
The L10 and M11 Cummins engines are legendary in trucker's circles for various oil related issues. It would take all day to document these! The M11 engine test forms part of the API and ACEA quality test sequences (black sludge/economy (thickening)) for petrol engines
With diesel engines the soot induced wear test is M11 based!
In fact the ACEA's anti foaming test standards under ASTMD892 are the same for high performance petrol engines and high speed heavy diesel engines
When the Euro Vehicle makers started ACEA (1994) in "competition" to the API the standards for engine oils took a new direction. Euro diesel engine makers had a lot of experience with low emission high speed diesels - and how to achieve maximum fuel economy
The ACEA quality standards use diesel engine test sequences from certain manufacturers.
With petrol engine oils wear tests, viscosity stability and oil consumption are measured against Daimler-Benz sequence using their heavy diesel OM602A engine
With diesel engine oils the MB OM364LA engine is used for bore polishing, wear sludge and oil usage. The OM602A is used too for cam wear and some tests from the OM364LA sequences etc. As well Mack T-8E, T10 and MB OM441LA sequences have their part
Most serious engine problems (as distinct from sudden failure) in heavy diesel engines usually result from the use of the wrong engine oils and coolants - and by not following the makers OCIs and etc!
So again as add-ons to the base API or ACEA test sequences, a specific Approval by the engine's Manufacturer is extremely important as there is usually an extended period of field testing involved. This is what I have done on their behalf over some decades and for certain applications and Oil Companies
I have ONLY used HDEO engine oils in all of my vehicles since the late 1950s when I went down the path of finding out why petrol engines sludge up and the prime reasons for unusually rapid engine/component wear. When using HDEOs however it is important to only use HDEOs that are dual rated (diesel/petrol) as example CI-4/SL - in petrol engines!
Porsche ONLY recommended and factory filled with monograde diesel engine oils for the 356, 912 and 911 for many years. It was Shell Rimula 20w-20 or 30 as I recall. When they moved to multigrade recommendations they still recommended a petrol engine oil with a specific secondary diesel engine oil rating. They were VERY wise!!
Any Porsche 928 owner would do well to use a Porsche Approved oil or a superior synthetic HDEO such as Delvac 1 5w-40 (or equivalent) or Shell's Rotella T 5w-40
So tests that are specific can be designed for the result required! The Manufacturer's Approval of an oil specification and its Listing as such is very important in diesel engines!
I hope this helps and aids 928 owners who may be alarmed that silicon leaching from gaskets and sealants may cause serious engine problems. I have never seen this occur in any engine family - petrol or diesel!
Regards
Doug
Glen I love your brew - much better than engine oils!
Rick - the following is as requested and has a "general" flavour. Please do not view my comments about Amsoil as negative - just MHO
Tests that are carried out by an Oil Company (or blender in the case of Amsoil) tend to give skewed results. This is simply a case in point!
Silicon leaching from sealants has long (last 15years or so) been shown to skew Used Oil Analysis (UOA) results. It been the cause of unnecessary engine tear downs and the like. For at least the last decade I have worked with a number of Oil Company Labs and Technicians in order to ensure that an engine "history" is known before a major tear down is recommended with an excessive and sudden silicon "show". Using a silicon sealant on any gasket or surface with an oil flow around it will skew the results! This is now well known in Tribology circles
Heavy Duty Engine Oils (HDEO) have long been the subject of much dilemma for engine builders. Rick, this engine is much of the same!!
This is really because until recently the engine makers were not directly involved in determining oil quality standards with the API
The diesel engine manufacturers in that last several years were involved with the API as prime movers in formulating a new quality standard for their engines. They have all learned very hard lessons during the last 15 years or so!
Since the mid 1980s Unit Injectors in various configurations have been used in high speed heavy diesel engines. My experience has been with the two US majors - Cummins and Detroit Diesel (DD)! I was involved with the very first export DD engines (two strokes) into Australia in 1987-88. And with Cummins a little earlier (L10 and M11 engines). These primarily and initially caused high camshaft lobe wear and resulted in a rapid upgrading of the API's quality ratings
CF came first (Caterpillar 1M-PC0, then CF-4 (caterpillar 1K). Then came CG-4 (caterpillar !n, Mack EO-L) which started to address foaming, CH-4 from 1998 (low sulphur fuels) and now we are jumping over CI-4 plus! Since about 1996 the engine manufacturers have been increasingly involved in formulating the APIs diesel oil quality standards
The L10 and M11 Cummins engines are legendary in trucker's circles for various oil related issues. It would take all day to document these! The M11 engine test forms part of the API and ACEA quality test sequences (black sludge/economy (thickening)) for petrol engines
With diesel engines the soot induced wear test is M11 based!
In fact the ACEA's anti foaming test standards under ASTMD892 are the same for high performance petrol engines and high speed heavy diesel engines
When the Euro Vehicle makers started ACEA (1994) in "competition" to the API the standards for engine oils took a new direction. Euro diesel engine makers had a lot of experience with low emission high speed diesels - and how to achieve maximum fuel economy
The ACEA quality standards use diesel engine test sequences from certain manufacturers.
With petrol engine oils wear tests, viscosity stability and oil consumption are measured against Daimler-Benz sequence using their heavy diesel OM602A engine
With diesel engine oils the MB OM364LA engine is used for bore polishing, wear sludge and oil usage. The OM602A is used too for cam wear and some tests from the OM364LA sequences etc. As well Mack T-8E, T10 and MB OM441LA sequences have their part
Most serious engine problems (as distinct from sudden failure) in heavy diesel engines usually result from the use of the wrong engine oils and coolants - and by not following the makers OCIs and etc!
So again as add-ons to the base API or ACEA test sequences, a specific Approval by the engine's Manufacturer is extremely important as there is usually an extended period of field testing involved. This is what I have done on their behalf over some decades and for certain applications and Oil Companies
I have ONLY used HDEO engine oils in all of my vehicles since the late 1950s when I went down the path of finding out why petrol engines sludge up and the prime reasons for unusually rapid engine/component wear. When using HDEOs however it is important to only use HDEOs that are dual rated (diesel/petrol) as example CI-4/SL - in petrol engines!
Porsche ONLY recommended and factory filled with monograde diesel engine oils for the 356, 912 and 911 for many years. It was Shell Rimula 20w-20 or 30 as I recall. When they moved to multigrade recommendations they still recommended a petrol engine oil with a specific secondary diesel engine oil rating. They were VERY wise!!
Any Porsche 928 owner would do well to use a Porsche Approved oil or a superior synthetic HDEO such as Delvac 1 5w-40 (or equivalent) or Shell's Rotella T 5w-40
So tests that are specific can be designed for the result required! The Manufacturer's Approval of an oil specification and its Listing as such is very important in diesel engines!
I hope this helps and aids 928 owners who may be alarmed that silicon leaching from gaskets and sealants may cause serious engine problems. I have never seen this occur in any engine family - petrol or diesel!
Regards
Doug
