Bill Ball

Ah, so this is what BMW has been using a lot. What do you think about using this in my 89 daily driver, surpergcharged, open road race car? This car never sees weather below freezing and spends most of it time in warm to hot weather. I want to get something with start up less viscosity than 15 in 15-50 M1 I use now.

Doug Hillary

Hi Bill,
yes, this Castrol lubricant is a truely great product

Its startup viscosity may be a little higher than M1!

While its Pour point is similar to M1, see below:
Pour point:
M1 15w-50 = -45C
"R" 10w-60 = -42C

it is much more viscous, as follows;
at 40C:
M1 15w-50 = 125cSt
"R" 10w-60 = 170cSt
at 100C:
M1 15w-50 = 17.5cSt
"R" 10w-60 = 24cSt

Its HTHS viscosity (@150C) is also higher;
M1 15w-50 = 5.11cSt
"R" 10w-60 = 5.4cSt

BMW do endorse this product for certain engines - the "M" series for instance and ALPINA vehicles

It started off as a castor based oil with a great smell to what it is today - a truely great lubricant in the right application

Because of its formulation it is expensive when compared to some other synthetics - you get in this instance what you pay for!

Regards
Doug

mark kibort

Doug,

Just because porsche has mobil 1 on an approval list, doesnt mean it can protect any better. do you know how these companies enter into these "partner marketing " relationships? its all BS. Sure amzoil is not on the list, why would it be. say it prevents any wear what so ever! the partnership with a small mono product type company would be usless for porsche and amzoil couldnt afford to offer anything to porsche. this is true for marketing relationships in almost ALL industries.

Anyway, based on what i have seen as far as oil pressure at the track (by the way, its less than .1% of the owners ever punish a car like we do at the track), Mobil 1 is subpar. seeing the oil pressure light on a hot day at the track will change your mind! Bill will be able to confirm this when he takes the ole 79 to the track with better oil. As far as tests, i have no idea if the wear ball test is good or bad or relavant. However, if the Amzoil did produce less wear scars at 40kg of pressure on there test, thats a good thing.

The bottomline, is you need an oil for racing, that doesnt loose its viscocity under extreme temps. which is better , mobil 1 or amzoil. based on what i have seen, mobil one doesnt hold up. Ive also seen charts of the major oils that show their condition after 1,000miles and 15,000miles. Amzoil and redline were the best in this area too.

its one of those things we all dont know a lot about, and trust our instincts or information from folks in our fields. Certainly i hold a buisness relationship like porsche and mobile with a grain of salt. Oil is oil when you talk about 99.99% of all cars on the road. as long as its clean, your car will probably never have an oil related engine failure. thats why many oil companies guarantee their products protection. why??? to sell more oil! Amzoil has a history in demanding applications such as in aviation, where oil is critical for engine survival. I think the certification codes are as much as a joke as the rest of the metrics. SAExxxxxx. common, its a minimum standard, that all oils surpass. Its the most comical part of the discussion as i challenge anyone to find an oil that wasnt premium brand. even the cheap of the cheap is premium and exceeds all the standards. I can tell you that amzoil has some crummy products too. their synthetic wheel bearing grease, liquifies and poors out the bearing caps. good old 76 brand bearing grease works great. however, you would neve know this unless you race your car, where my WHEEL temps are hotter than most folks brake discs on any given race day.

Hey, i would love to hear of folks that have done the comparison of Amzoil or redline vs mobile 1. Of all the engine failures we have had in the 928 world, i would say that most of them have had one thing in common. Mobil 1. Iim very suspect as you can tell. Mark and Joseph use Kendal 20-50 racing oil, i used to use this oil and change it every race weekend. scot and i use amzoil or redline , as I have used for over 10 years now, and guess what, more track laps than anyone, over 120-140track days, 65+ races, with no accusump, baffle, anything!


MK

John Veninger

Again, grease test, means nothing to motor oil quality.

I've used Amsoil and liked it, but there are others race oils out there that work well. Kendal and there is a Valvoline one that is also good. To bad Castrol doesn't market a race oil in the US, but the imported 10W60 is very good stuff.

pmotts

Mark,

We do have have an expert in the field, Doug Hillary. It's not all about oil pressure, I think I have read here before that if high oil pressure is what you want use gear oil ;-)
As far as you seeing more 2/6 failures with motors that use Mobil, wonder if that could be because Mobil is used so much more than any of the other lubricants? Hmmm.

I am waiting for Doug to start questioning you lines at Willow Springs or your track strategy... know what I mean?

mark kibort

Hey, im talking about pressure characteristics for a given multigrade oil. 20-50 vs 20-50. or 50weight. at high temp, at high rpms. if you see the redlight come on for oil pressure with mobil 1 and you dont for amzoil or redline, then which oil would you trust to protect your #2-6 bearings?

I understand about pressure and flow. its a mix of both.

Doug hasnt said anything ive disagreed with. Also, didnt know he was an expert in the field. Im wondering why the viscosity retention and film strenght hasnt been discussed for oil that is near 260-280F and flowing at max rates

I would love to see more emperical tests in this area. by no way, is my input here scientific. all im using is word of mouth, marketing specs, and intuition.
For me, if someone could provide a comparison of mobil 1 and amzoil and after 3 race weekends, put the oil at 280F and do some tests and prove mobil 1 is better, i would switch. however, the test wont happen now will it. Mobil 1 will continue to market better than anyone, as they are the biggest. I dont think the majority of race cars use Mobil 1 in professional racing though, and thats a guess.

Also, who has the most 928 racing miles? who is most succesful? what oil to they use? kind of hard to argue with some of the emperical tests. 140F degree track temps at Thunderhill every summer. I race every single month of the season, i never see less than 5 bar even at 260-280F degree oil temps. i have constant radius turns at 5krpms and the pressure is only a needle under 5 bar.

bottomline, i think if you are not racing, mobil 1 is fine, so is any oil made today. the way the 928 engine is made, i bet wesson cooking oil would work for street use!

MK

mark kibort

Doug,

I have 2 race weekends, 3 races on my current Amzoil 20-50 racing oil.
anyone want a sample? i also have my old filter from 4 race weekends and a winter of street driving.

Mark

RyanPerrella

Doug,

So in your opinion, for us US consumers, who do not race their cars, the Mobil 5/40 turbo diesel offers the best protection/performance of the available oils.

You prefer this "turbo diesel" oil to the standard M1 5/40?

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/...uck_5W-40.aspx

RyanPerrella

also,

the guidelines by which a diesel oil is held to are far stricter then the standard cert. for gasoline oils?

I get why the weight 5/40 is preferable, but not so much why the diesel branded version is better than the standard M1.

if you could clarify on that that would be great

thanks

Ryan

pmotts

Ryan,
I don't think this is what you were looking for but does relate to the 5-40 in diesels.


I have used Delvac 1 5w-40 in my own diesel engines costing more that $50k each for many millions of kms over seven years. During this period I have carried out hundreds of clinically controlled Used oil Analysis (UOAs) and one complete engine strip down at 1m kms (620k miles).
At engine strip down the engine (a 500hp Series 60 Detroit Diesel) was able to be rebuilt without any new components and was exceptionally clean and deposit free internally. This is MOST exceptional as the OHC valve train and piston component areas are well known for wear in this engine series! The valves/injector actuators had NOT been adjusted for 800kkms due to low wear rates. The tear down inspection was carried out by the engine's Manufacturer Detroit Diesel and was also monitored by Mobil's engineers. The results are now well known and the UOA data is stored on a complex database by individual engine and engine family
This engine had a whole of life oil consumption averaging 6kkms per litre (same as engine family average) and now one year later still has the same oil consumption factor at 1.1m kms

I have used it (Delvac 1 5w-40) in many petrol engines too during that time (seven years) with perfect results. It is especially good with elevated fire band pressures and temperatures which can lead to ring/land and piston "issues" and with turbochargers/superchargers

I operate my own Transport and Consultancy business (17 years) and am NOT connected to Mobil or any other Oil Company. I have done field service trials/lubricant testing for Castrol since the 1970-80s and Mobil, and I once worked for Caltex-Chevron (in Copenhagen Denmark in 1960s)

It is over to each owner to make their choice - the facts make for a better decision

Regards
Doug

Doug Hillary

Hi,
pmotts - thanks for the post

Ryan - in addition to pmotts' input -Mobil 1 5w-40 is only marketed in some World markets. I did not know it is sild in NA - I don't think they do in reality. It is not sold here in OZ - only M1 0w-40. M1 is sold here as 10w-30 (GM's V8 Factory fill) 5w-50 and 15w-50
Delvac 1 5w-40 is a Commercial diesel oil and was sold in the US as M 1 T&SUV 5w-40.
I believe M1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5w-40 to be the same stuff!

Have no doubt that M1 0w-40 is a top shelf product and it is used as factory fill in many engines from many engine manufacturers. In a 928 I prefer a 5w-40 with a HTHS viscosity above 4cSt

Using an oil with a diesel rating of CF or above ensures greater engine cleanliness, less volatility and, importantly in a little used engine (like most classics) a much longer life in the oil pan than oils without such ratings. This is due to the greater dose on acid counteracting chemicals in the additive package. There are some other benefits too

Mark this thread was started off as a request for information on two versions of Mobil 1!
It was you who introduced Amsoil's "loud clapping noises" and then bagging Mobil 1 as usual - quite early in the thread's life

It had nothing to do with race engines and I prefaced my answers to this effect too. Race engines do have other needs driven by the likes of fuel dilution etc. A thread on race oil was stated by me some years ago and is in the Archives

I am reluctant to post here for this very reason. In the past both Jim Baily and Wally Plumley
have indicated that some people view oils as a "religion" - obviously it still is to them!

However, some points need to be aired

The relationship between engine makers and Oil Companies has a long history - probably 100 years or so!

Mercedes Benz used the German oil companies to develop some exotic oil brews is the 1930s - believe me!
As an example in recent times - Duckhams developed the 20w-50 oil for the engine transmission of the Austin Mini during 1958-9. Without it these vehicle could have been worse than they were in the market place. I know as we could not get that oil in NZ then and used the standard Castrol XL and then XXL in the prototypes I was involved with. Oil related issued soon surfaced. Castrol's 20w-50 solved some of them!

More recently Castrol has been field testing oils with VW and others cars in the UK - for some years. This has produced much interesting data such as cars running well without oil changes for some years and Group 3 oils that are in many ways superior to the like of Amsoil that you promote

Never discount the very close engineering relationship between the German engine makers (both diesel and petrol) and their Oil Company suppliers. As engines become more sophisticated and energy prices soar this interdependency will become increasingly more important
Oil pressure and oil flow relationships within an engine are complex. A whole thread could be generated on this subject alone. So could the viscosity/temperature comparisons between oils

Mark - Porsche have over 100 oils on their List from a whole raft of Oil Companies so they endorse others than Mobil. Not an Amsoil product in sight there!!
Amsoil products (other than the Euro 5w-40 brew) would likely fail the Porsche test due to excessive thickening in normal to extended use. This has a very negative affect in any engine with sensitive oil monitoring systems and oil pressure driven actuators etc

Mark - As for the oil Certification processes well they do work very well now that ACEA is there to keep the API on the rails. Jointly they are THE oil quality standards - whether Amsoil likes it or not!
The ACEA's standards are very well structured and meaningful. So are the Manufacturer's test sequences. As for the SAE, well their viscosity parameters even if a little dated in a modern world will be around for a while yet thank goodness

Where are your UOAs Mark? I thought you were using these as a tool to prove how good Amsoil oils really are. It would be great if you would post them here

Mark I have never set myself up as "the oil expert" but I will contribute if I feel I have some substance to offer. I only deal in the facts however and my style may be "opinionated". At 67 it is probably a little to late to try and change that!


Regards
Doug

Bill Ball

Doug:

You have to keep this simple for me. I was trying to get a less viscous start-up that M1 15-50 based on the reports that it spens a long time in bypass, and I thought a lower weight rating, like to 10-60 would accomplish that, as well as give me more viscosity at high temp. Now you are saying the cSt number is higher on both counts with 10-60. Argh! So, would you expect the 10-60 to spends more time in bypass on start-up?

Doug Hillary

Hi Bill,
yes that appears to be the case - the 10w-60 may spend a little more time in by-pass
It would likely show a little higher OP at a hot idle too

I have checked both of them at 10C and 50C on a viscosity calculator and M1 15-50 is considerably less viscous at both of these points

I would stick with M1 15w-50 if you are happy with it. It is a lubricant with great flow characteristics and I believe that this is why Porsche Approve the 5w-50 version as their only SAE50 oil

Sadly M1 5w-50 is not available in NA

Of course Marc from DEVEK's chart showed it as a marginal by-pass point (at around 5 minutes and 70C I think) and at about 5k revs as I recall
I expect it would be out of filtration differential by-pass much earlier

Regards
Doug

trip75

so it seems everybody has a different view as to which weight oil to use. would i go wrong with 15w-50. Or should i keep using 5w-50 which the po's used. The car moved from Cali. to Wisc.Help me please!

mark kibort

Doug,

I certainly am not knowledgeble in the field engine oils, other than what we all "kind of " know about them. (ie the basics)

Ive only stated what i have seen, and it is a clear concern for anyone worried about the mode of potential failure of our #2/6 bearings

what happens when we dont have the knowledge, it does become religion, as it is with some things with me and all of us.

i havent done any analysis of my oil, but i certainly would if it would have some value. I think what would be shown by my oil is not so much its condtion, but the fact that my #2/6 bearings have been saved in racing conditions. Its still a black art, but i have a feeling that the high temp performance of amzoil is above par.

mk