Mobil 1 synthetic or tri-synthetic
05-26-2006, 06:12 AM
#31
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15W50 M1 too thin? I didn't go back and read Doug's stuff, but I think he argued that 15W50 is too thick and that you get high pressure at the expense of flow. My problem is that 5W40 is OK except when I idle to a stop at the end of an open road race. The engine is very hot and the pressure is too low. I would like to idle the engine to cool it off, but I have to kill it due to low pressure. Let it cool down and all is OK. Perhaps my bearing clearances are a little high at 160K miles, in which case I would think the high viscosity is OK if not beneficial.
05-26-2006, 12:57 PM
#32
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by Bill Ball
15W50 M1 too thin? I didn't go back and read Doug's stuff, but I think he argued that 15W50 is too thick and that you get high pressure at the expense of flow. My problem is that 5W40 is OK except when I idle to a stop at the end of an open road race. The engine is very hot and the pressure is too low. I would like to idle the engine to cool it off, but I have to kill it due to low pressure. Let it cool down and all is OK. Perhaps my bearing clearances are a little high at 160K miles, in which case I would think the high viscosity is OK if not beneficial.
My recollection is that Doug's recommendation for 5w40 is for normal street driving, not for racing, and that he sees no problem with 15w50 for such high stress application. I don't think he had an argument that it was bad for the car, just that on the street, 5w40 had some advantages for startup protection and fuel economy, as well as for those in cold weather, while still being perfectly fine in higher temperature locales like Doug's.
05-26-2006, 08:24 PM
#33
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Oils 'n things
Hi,
here are some comments that may assist with this thread - they only apply to engines that are not raced;
1 - Bill & Matt, as you indicated, the "CarCraft" article is "inaccurate" in that it is at least 6 years and maybe even 10 years old. It states "Mobil 1's new Tri-synthetic..." (It has had three formulation changes since) and the API's "SJ" quality rating as current - it was, in 1997 and is now SM!
Some information contained in the article is still "conventional wisdom" however and some quality synthetic oils do protect well into the 400F range - and do it very well indeed!
In some racing applications monograde oils still rule - ask Castrol who still sell lots of Castrol R30 and R40 ester based oils (with the BEST smell) for racers
2 - Oils have changed dramatically over the last 20 years and the API have had three quality rating changes in the last decade alone. ACEA have had four quality rating changes since 1996. So articles that are older than the last quality upgrade(s) will have some inaccuracies when viewed from today's perspective
3 - Matt - oils fall in to six Groups. The synthetics fall into Groups 3 to 5. Group 6 is a new type of synthetic composition. Old semi-synthetic oils that fell into the Group 3 "hydro-cracked" category have been updated to rival Group 4 or 5 synthetics - they are still Group 3 "synthetics". Many now outperform some boutique synthetics at half the price!
John, good to hear from you. The latest range of Approved Castrol engine oil products are performing very well in service in Australia - especially the fully synthetic 0w-40. As mentioned once before if I were to race a 928 engine I would use Castrol's R synthetic 10w-60, an oil that I assisted in developing from the late 1970s into the early 1980s
John as you indicated, many advanced additives and lubrication "structures" are already in use or will be in the next year or two. Some of these may be far superior to Moly etc. and some indications are that mineral or synthetic base oils and ester combinations using these new additive packages are top performers. Whilst technically Group 3 oils they outperform some "old" and very expensive Group 5 synthetics
Ferrari appear to use a Group 3 base oil from Shell suitably "tuned" of course
4 - RDS928S - Porsche factory filled 928 engines with two different viscosity synthetic oils - initially a 10w-30 and after 12 months production they went to a 5w-40.
Both were Shell products which Porsche used up until the mid 1990s or thereabouts
Porsche testing regime's standards only Approve synthetic oils and the factory still fills with either a 0w-40 or a 5w-40. Using either of these simply depends on the LOWEST consistent ambient that the engine will be used in.
An about even mix of both 0w-40 and 5w-40 oils are on Porsche's Approval List
5 - Tim, Mobil's 1 5w-40 T&SUV has been repackaged and is now called Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel 5w-40 in the US I believe - and it can be used as a replacement.
I use Delvac 1 5w-40 HDEO (Heavy Duty Engine Oil) which is the original and Commercial version of these oils has a high ester content and has been around for about 15 years.
It should be available from Mobil Truck Stops or a Mobil Distributor
By any standard today a ??W-40 oil is quite viscous - many new engine run very well on their prescribed diet of a mineral 0w-20 and so did cars made in the 1940s!!!
Euro engine manufacturers have long settled on the ACEA A3/A4 criteria which by and large calls up a 0w-40 or 5w-40 lubricant - mineral or synthetic. This is changing and some Euro engines will go down to 0w-20 in the near future in order to improve fuel efficiency - these oils have a HTHS viscosity of 2.9 cSt or thereabouts and are unsuitable for a Porsche. Never use M1 10w-30 in a 928 for this very reason
PLEASE NOTE: I DO NOT WORK FOR MOBIL!!!!
6 - Porsche's Approval system requires the lubricant to meet their own specific anti-foaming and volatility requirements etc. along with the ACEA's A3/B3 quality test ratings
No 10w-30 oils meet these requirements and many oils without Porsche Approval may not perform too well in a 928
IMHO and in particular, Porsche's minimum High Temperature High Shear (HTHS) viscosity of 3.6cSt at 150C is quite critical to a 928 engine's health. Personally I prefer this viscosity to be around 4cSt for a 928 and that is why I use Delvac 1 5w-40!
7 - Some oils like certain Amsoil products tend to thicken with normal use - Mobil 1 0w-40 tends to thin and then thicken again but holds its viscosity over extended drains. Amsoil products are NOT Approved or Listed by Porsche - one however (a Euro spec 5w-40) is Approved by Mercedes Benz and performs well in their test regime
Amsoil's (and some other boutique oil blenders) range of oils includes(ed) many that were uncertified by the API. This was a marketing decision by them but many believe that the level of some additives would have precluded them from certification. Hence these oils say that the "Meet" or "Exceed" the API's quality standard but have not been officially Certified
8 - Oils that thicken excessively with use do tend to introduce internal deposit problems and they need to be changed more often. This is more evident with the conventional (mineral) and cheaper 20w-50 lubricants and etc. They tend to oxidise quickly and have poor cold flow charteristics
It is worth remembering that the original 20w-50 oil was prepared solely for the BMC Mini's release in 1959. It was produced to compensate for excessive oil shearing due to the combined engine/transmission in these vehicles (sharing the one lubricant).
The first 20w-50 was produced by Duckhams and quickly followed by Castrol
Even with Mobil 1 15w-50 (an oil with excellent cold flow abilities) Marc from DEVEK produced a dyno engine report giving an oil temp/viscosity/revs result which showed that the engine's lubrication system and the filtration media may still be in by-pass after 10 minutes running as I recall
9- Most wear is presumed (and confirmed) to occur in the cold start period until the oil's Anti-wear (AW) additives are activated. This is usually above about 60C oil temperature. Oil temperature in a 928 runs about 10C behind coolant temperature for up to 30 minutes after a cold start
A 5w-?? synthetic oil will circulate much faster than a 20w-?? mineral oil and will tend to heat up a little quicker. This is important in a 928 with a very high relief valve setting and hydraulic valve train actuation
10 - Chris - you got it right! Mobil 1's 15w-50 is NOT approved by Porsche only the 5w-50 version is. It is the ONLY SAE50 oil Porsche Approves. M1 15w-50 should only be used in a consistent ambient down to -15C (0F). These two oils are quite outstanding products and work well in a 928, and in cold weather too use them with confidence. For most a 5w-40 synthetic will work better!
11 - No oil has been shown to significantly reduce wear over another meeting similar specifications (such as ACEA A3/B3-04 or API's SL/CF). This applies to brands and composition (mineral/synthetic). Don't believe the advertising hype - that's what it is, hype!
Benefits are certainly there when using a synthetic as Porsche recommends and as they have done since 1992 - these can be viewed as extras for the premium in price!
12 - It is wise not to confuse flow and pressure. Pressure is "only" a measure of resistance!
Porsche only provides data on minimum hot oil pressure at 4-5000rpm - you need 5bar!.
Most 928s will show 4bar at 2000rpm and this is great!
As long as the hot idle OP is around 2bar and above at idle all is well. Oil flow will be the same at idle whether you have 3bar or 2bar etc. but it is worth replacing the oil cooler's thermostat if a consistently low OP occurs at hot idle
13 - Used Oil Analysis (UOA) is a great way to determine if an oil is performing well and its condition at one point in time. Trending the results can show if an engine's wear metal rates are consistent and "normal". In the case of a 928 if can be used as another tool to pre-empt the possibility of thrust bearing failure
14 - Sam - we have never met. I live in Airlie Beach and rarely get to Sydney - you are welcome here anytime
Sadly mechanics do not get trained on lubricants and most merely "go with the flow"
My two youngest sons are diesel mechanics in Brisbane - one (26yo) is with Caterpillar and the other (24yo) is with MAN-VW-Western Star-Mercedes Benz. They are appalled at how little their TAFE Tutors really knew - it's a worry!
Well, sorry for the long post but I hope it assists in understanding more about our wonderful cars
Regards
Doug
here are some comments that may assist with this thread - they only apply to engines that are not raced;
1 - Bill & Matt, as you indicated, the "CarCraft" article is "inaccurate" in that it is at least 6 years and maybe even 10 years old. It states "Mobil 1's new Tri-synthetic..." (It has had three formulation changes since) and the API's "SJ" quality rating as current - it was, in 1997 and is now SM!
Some information contained in the article is still "conventional wisdom" however and some quality synthetic oils do protect well into the 400F range - and do it very well indeed!
In some racing applications monograde oils still rule - ask Castrol who still sell lots of Castrol R30 and R40 ester based oils (with the BEST smell) for racers
2 - Oils have changed dramatically over the last 20 years and the API have had three quality rating changes in the last decade alone. ACEA have had four quality rating changes since 1996. So articles that are older than the last quality upgrade(s) will have some inaccuracies when viewed from today's perspective
3 - Matt - oils fall in to six Groups. The synthetics fall into Groups 3 to 5. Group 6 is a new type of synthetic composition. Old semi-synthetic oils that fell into the Group 3 "hydro-cracked" category have been updated to rival Group 4 or 5 synthetics - they are still Group 3 "synthetics". Many now outperform some boutique synthetics at half the price!
John, good to hear from you. The latest range of Approved Castrol engine oil products are performing very well in service in Australia - especially the fully synthetic 0w-40. As mentioned once before if I were to race a 928 engine I would use Castrol's R synthetic 10w-60, an oil that I assisted in developing from the late 1970s into the early 1980s
John as you indicated, many advanced additives and lubrication "structures" are already in use or will be in the next year or two. Some of these may be far superior to Moly etc. and some indications are that mineral or synthetic base oils and ester combinations using these new additive packages are top performers. Whilst technically Group 3 oils they outperform some "old" and very expensive Group 5 synthetics
Ferrari appear to use a Group 3 base oil from Shell suitably "tuned" of course
4 - RDS928S - Porsche factory filled 928 engines with two different viscosity synthetic oils - initially a 10w-30 and after 12 months production they went to a 5w-40.
Both were Shell products which Porsche used up until the mid 1990s or thereabouts
Porsche testing regime's standards only Approve synthetic oils and the factory still fills with either a 0w-40 or a 5w-40. Using either of these simply depends on the LOWEST consistent ambient that the engine will be used in.
An about even mix of both 0w-40 and 5w-40 oils are on Porsche's Approval List
5 - Tim, Mobil's 1 5w-40 T&SUV has been repackaged and is now called Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel 5w-40 in the US I believe - and it can be used as a replacement.
I use Delvac 1 5w-40 HDEO (Heavy Duty Engine Oil) which is the original and Commercial version of these oils has a high ester content and has been around for about 15 years.
It should be available from Mobil Truck Stops or a Mobil Distributor
By any standard today a ??W-40 oil is quite viscous - many new engine run very well on their prescribed diet of a mineral 0w-20 and so did cars made in the 1940s!!!
Euro engine manufacturers have long settled on the ACEA A3/A4 criteria which by and large calls up a 0w-40 or 5w-40 lubricant - mineral or synthetic. This is changing and some Euro engines will go down to 0w-20 in the near future in order to improve fuel efficiency - these oils have a HTHS viscosity of 2.9 cSt or thereabouts and are unsuitable for a Porsche. Never use M1 10w-30 in a 928 for this very reason
PLEASE NOTE: I DO NOT WORK FOR MOBIL!!!!
6 - Porsche's Approval system requires the lubricant to meet their own specific anti-foaming and volatility requirements etc. along with the ACEA's A3/B3 quality test ratings
No 10w-30 oils meet these requirements and many oils without Porsche Approval may not perform too well in a 928
IMHO and in particular, Porsche's minimum High Temperature High Shear (HTHS) viscosity of 3.6cSt at 150C is quite critical to a 928 engine's health. Personally I prefer this viscosity to be around 4cSt for a 928 and that is why I use Delvac 1 5w-40!
7 - Some oils like certain Amsoil products tend to thicken with normal use - Mobil 1 0w-40 tends to thin and then thicken again but holds its viscosity over extended drains. Amsoil products are NOT Approved or Listed by Porsche - one however (a Euro spec 5w-40) is Approved by Mercedes Benz and performs well in their test regime
Amsoil's (and some other boutique oil blenders) range of oils includes(ed) many that were uncertified by the API. This was a marketing decision by them but many believe that the level of some additives would have precluded them from certification. Hence these oils say that the "Meet" or "Exceed" the API's quality standard but have not been officially Certified
8 - Oils that thicken excessively with use do tend to introduce internal deposit problems and they need to be changed more often. This is more evident with the conventional (mineral) and cheaper 20w-50 lubricants and etc. They tend to oxidise quickly and have poor cold flow charteristics
It is worth remembering that the original 20w-50 oil was prepared solely for the BMC Mini's release in 1959. It was produced to compensate for excessive oil shearing due to the combined engine/transmission in these vehicles (sharing the one lubricant).
The first 20w-50 was produced by Duckhams and quickly followed by Castrol
Even with Mobil 1 15w-50 (an oil with excellent cold flow abilities) Marc from DEVEK produced a dyno engine report giving an oil temp/viscosity/revs result which showed that the engine's lubrication system and the filtration media may still be in by-pass after 10 minutes running as I recall
9- Most wear is presumed (and confirmed) to occur in the cold start period until the oil's Anti-wear (AW) additives are activated. This is usually above about 60C oil temperature. Oil temperature in a 928 runs about 10C behind coolant temperature for up to 30 minutes after a cold start
A 5w-?? synthetic oil will circulate much faster than a 20w-?? mineral oil and will tend to heat up a little quicker. This is important in a 928 with a very high relief valve setting and hydraulic valve train actuation
10 - Chris - you got it right! Mobil 1's 15w-50 is NOT approved by Porsche only the 5w-50 version is. It is the ONLY SAE50 oil Porsche Approves. M1 15w-50 should only be used in a consistent ambient down to -15C (0F). These two oils are quite outstanding products and work well in a 928, and in cold weather too use them with confidence. For most a 5w-40 synthetic will work better!
11 - No oil has been shown to significantly reduce wear over another meeting similar specifications (such as ACEA A3/B3-04 or API's SL/CF). This applies to brands and composition (mineral/synthetic). Don't believe the advertising hype - that's what it is, hype!
Benefits are certainly there when using a synthetic as Porsche recommends and as they have done since 1992 - these can be viewed as extras for the premium in price!
12 - It is wise not to confuse flow and pressure. Pressure is "only" a measure of resistance!
Porsche only provides data on minimum hot oil pressure at 4-5000rpm - you need 5bar!.
Most 928s will show 4bar at 2000rpm and this is great!
As long as the hot idle OP is around 2bar and above at idle all is well. Oil flow will be the same at idle whether you have 3bar or 2bar etc. but it is worth replacing the oil cooler's thermostat if a consistently low OP occurs at hot idle
13 - Used Oil Analysis (UOA) is a great way to determine if an oil is performing well and its condition at one point in time. Trending the results can show if an engine's wear metal rates are consistent and "normal". In the case of a 928 if can be used as another tool to pre-empt the possibility of thrust bearing failure
14 - Sam - we have never met. I live in Airlie Beach and rarely get to Sydney - you are welcome here anytime
Sadly mechanics do not get trained on lubricants and most merely "go with the flow"
My two youngest sons are diesel mechanics in Brisbane - one (26yo) is with Caterpillar and the other (24yo) is with MAN-VW-Western Star-Mercedes Benz. They are appalled at how little their TAFE Tutors really knew - it's a worry!
Well, sorry for the long post but I hope it assists in understanding more about our wonderful cars
Regards
Doug
05-27-2006, 02:42 PM
#35
Rennlist Member
All i can say is that with mobil 1, most all of the engine failures where using this stuff. next, when scot changed to amzoil vs mobil 1, the pressure stays right up toward 5bar, even just before the red light goes on for over temp (doing tests last night to fix his overheat problem and did a quick observation) his car when hot at the track, sometimes would trigger the oil pressure light. not the case anymore!
call me suspicious, but i tend to believe the wear ball test results. 1/4 the wear ball scars with amzoil vs mobil 1.
Just talking to a guy that lost his 944 engine in his race car from SSF. guess what? you got it mobil 1
Amzoil, fact or fiction, its still the best insurance going.
forget about the porsche /mobil 1 relationship. its like anyother corp relationship. it has nothing to do with the oil, its purely a marketing campaign.
sure , all the oils kind of do the same thing. there are subtle differences. for street driving, you probably could use cooking oil and be ok. heck, i saw al unser run a viper with no oil and an engine treated with slick 50 (ha ha) for a couple of laps around willow springs! (I still dont believe that though!)
Mk
call me suspicious, but i tend to believe the wear ball test results. 1/4 the wear ball scars with amzoil vs mobil 1.
Just talking to a guy that lost his 944 engine in his race car from SSF. guess what? you got it mobil 1
Amzoil, fact or fiction, its still the best insurance going.
forget about the porsche /mobil 1 relationship. its like anyother corp relationship. it has nothing to do with the oil, its purely a marketing campaign.
sure , all the oils kind of do the same thing. there are subtle differences. for street driving, you probably could use cooking oil and be ok. heck, i saw al unser run a viper with no oil and an engine treated with slick 50 (ha ha) for a couple of laps around willow springs! (I still dont believe that though!)
Mk
Originally Posted by Bill Ball
15W50 M1 too thin? I didn't go back and read Doug's stuff, but I think he argued that 15W50 is too thick and that you get high pressure at the expense of flow. My problem is that 5W40 is OK except when I idle to a stop at the end of an open road race. The engine is very hot and the pressure is too low. I would like to idle the engine to cool it off, but I have to kill it due to low pressure. Let it cool down and all is OK. Perhaps my bearing clearances are a little high at 160K miles, in which case I would think the high viscosity is OK if not beneficial.
05-27-2006, 02:56 PM
#36
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Doug, I haven't been able to find M1 5W40 anywhere locally for the past few months. A lot of people are running into this. The available choices are 5W30 T&SUV, 0W40, and 15W50. Which would be the best choice of the 3?
I have 2 gallons of 15W50 that I bought last year sitting in the garage and 5W40 Rotella T was in the engine until I pulled it. After only about 500 miles, the oil was pitch black. I know color doesn't mean much, but the change in such a short period of time surprised me.
I have 2 gallons of 15W50 that I bought last year sitting in the garage and 5W40 Rotella T was in the engine until I pulled it. After only about 500 miles, the oil was pitch black. I know color doesn't mean much, but the change in such a short period of time surprised me.
05-27-2006, 03:02 PM
#37
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call me suspicious, but i tend to believe the wear ball test results. 1/4 the wear ball scars with amzoil vs mobil 1.
Amsoil 20w-50 race oil is a good product, had some analysis work done to it.
My next race motor will be running a mono grade.
05-27-2006, 08:08 PM
#38
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Amsoil - oil foaming
Hi,
Matt - the 0w-40 is a great oil, possibly one of the best engine lubricants made to date by anyone. In your case I would use up the M1 15w-50 with confidence - and look for stocks of the M1 Turbo Diesel 5w-40 or Delvac 1 5w-40 for use next time
Mark I was tempted to answer your post but decided one cannot match a marketing beat up!
As for the 4 ball test well......! Big ***** or not?
As John has indicated the Amsoil promoted "4 ball" test is really a test for grease!
The 4 ball test is totally irrelevant to engine oils and even many Amsoil Dealers are so embarrassed by it they have sought to have it dropped from Amsoil's marketing plan, It is that irrelevant!
No other engine oil blender or producer uses this test for their products
No engine manufacturer uses the 4 ball test either and this applies to all engine manufacturers - diesel or petrol and from any Continent you name!!
There is another thread here on the 928 Forum entitled "Oil foaming". It too is full of biassed marketing by Amsoil! Sadly the Amsoil products mentioned there do not have any diesel engine maker's Approvals! And in this test Amsoil wins again - in Amsoil's test!
The issue of oil foaming and silicon is misleading to say the least. It is very common to have small amount of silicon polymer leaching evidenced in used oil samples (UOA) after new gaskets or seals are fitted and where silicon sealants used. The highest I have seen is around 110ppm - not a lot when you know where it comes from and that it is simply not ingested via the air intake as a silicate
As to its affect well I have seen evidence of a silicon oil seal being replaced and the the UOA going from 7ppm to 96ppm within 24kkms due to leaching - there was no adverse affect and I have never seen evidence of any serious problems. This sort of thing at low ppm concentrations is very common
Always use the oil specified/recommended or Listed by the engine's manufacturer -this is especially so with high speed diesel engines
Mark the Porsche/Mobil relationship has nothing whatsoever to do with the Porsche Approvals List!
This List contains about 100 (around three are Mobil 1) or so engine oils with official Porsche Approval - Amsoil is nowhere to be seen!
It is a fallacy to think that an oil supplier does not work closely with the engine Manufacturer! Look at Shell in Formula 1 with Ferrari and well publicised too.
In that role I can confirm the extremely close engineering relationship that does exist between Mobil and Mercedes Benz and between VW-Audi and Castrol and etc. I have been there and done that!!
Some Amsoil products are no doubt very good and the Euro formulated 5w-40 which has Mercedes Benz Approval is one. I just wish that their marking would be less misleading and that they would obtain Manufacturer Approvals and certification on the established level playing fields of both API and ACEA
John - the idea of using a suitable monograde when racing is excellent - is it Castrol's R30 or R40?
In the end use what you believe is best for you - remember though that NO oil is significantly better than another if both meet the same specification!
Regards
Doug
Matt - the 0w-40 is a great oil, possibly one of the best engine lubricants made to date by anyone. In your case I would use up the M1 15w-50 with confidence - and look for stocks of the M1 Turbo Diesel 5w-40 or Delvac 1 5w-40 for use next time
Mark I was tempted to answer your post but decided one cannot match a marketing beat up!
As for the 4 ball test well......! Big ***** or not?
As John has indicated the Amsoil promoted "4 ball" test is really a test for grease!
The 4 ball test is totally irrelevant to engine oils and even many Amsoil Dealers are so embarrassed by it they have sought to have it dropped from Amsoil's marketing plan, It is that irrelevant!
No other engine oil blender or producer uses this test for their products
No engine manufacturer uses the 4 ball test either and this applies to all engine manufacturers - diesel or petrol and from any Continent you name!!
There is another thread here on the 928 Forum entitled "Oil foaming". It too is full of biassed marketing by Amsoil! Sadly the Amsoil products mentioned there do not have any diesel engine maker's Approvals! And in this test Amsoil wins again - in Amsoil's test!
The issue of oil foaming and silicon is misleading to say the least. It is very common to have small amount of silicon polymer leaching evidenced in used oil samples (UOA) after new gaskets or seals are fitted and where silicon sealants used. The highest I have seen is around 110ppm - not a lot when you know where it comes from and that it is simply not ingested via the air intake as a silicate
As to its affect well I have seen evidence of a silicon oil seal being replaced and the the UOA going from 7ppm to 96ppm within 24kkms due to leaching - there was no adverse affect and I have never seen evidence of any serious problems. This sort of thing at low ppm concentrations is very common
Always use the oil specified/recommended or Listed by the engine's manufacturer -this is especially so with high speed diesel engines
Mark the Porsche/Mobil relationship has nothing whatsoever to do with the Porsche Approvals List!
This List contains about 100 (around three are Mobil 1) or so engine oils with official Porsche Approval - Amsoil is nowhere to be seen!
It is a fallacy to think that an oil supplier does not work closely with the engine Manufacturer! Look at Shell in Formula 1 with Ferrari and well publicised too.
In that role I can confirm the extremely close engineering relationship that does exist between Mobil and Mercedes Benz and between VW-Audi and Castrol and etc. I have been there and done that!!
Some Amsoil products are no doubt very good and the Euro formulated 5w-40 which has Mercedes Benz Approval is one. I just wish that their marking would be less misleading and that they would obtain Manufacturer Approvals and certification on the established level playing fields of both API and ACEA
John - the idea of using a suitable monograde when racing is excellent - is it Castrol's R30 or R40?
In the end use what you believe is best for you - remember though that NO oil is significantly better than another if both meet the same specification!
Regards
Doug
05-27-2006, 08:43 PM
#40
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Hi John,
I have always been a fan of monograde oils when used correctly - and custom products in particular!
Will it have the "R" smell??
I look forward to hearing about your results
Doug
I have always been a fan of monograde oils when used correctly - and custom products in particular!
Will it have the "R" smell??
I look forward to hearing about your results
Doug
05-27-2006, 09:36 PM
#42
Rennlist Member
Doug,
I'm glad I checked this post again; so you're saying silicon doesn't have a dual role regarding oil foaming? That is in small amounts (whatever that is) it is anti-foaming but in larger amounts (whatever that is) it is a foaming agent? How about putting oils in a blender to compare foaming?
I'm glad I checked this post again; so you're saying silicon doesn't have a dual role regarding oil foaming? That is in small amounts (whatever that is) it is anti-foaming but in larger amounts (whatever that is) it is a foaming agent? How about putting oils in a blender to compare foaming?
05-27-2006, 10:31 PM
#43
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Hi Rick,
the blender test would be interesting - and in the real world probably inconclusive!
I actually wrote a long passage on oil testing that I was going to post in your "Oil foaming" thread but it may have been interpreted as knocking Amsoil's products that is not my intent
Let me know if I should send it direct to you or post it!
Silicon polymers and organic copolymers (silaxanes) are Antifomamants and some other chemicals inter-react too. This is one reason why adding oil additives can at the best be somewhat "counterproductive".
To simply pour 200ml of concentrated silicon polymer into an engine would be a worry. The oil formulators and additive package makers have a lot of experience at "correctness" in this area
Amsoil purchase their base stocks from three Oil Companies I believe - the biggest supplier is ExxonMobil. They (Amsoil) purchase their additive packages from either of three suppliers - two at least are owned by Oil Companies - the biggest supplier is ExxonMobil
We are talking about only very small silicon concentrations from sealant leaching - in the 20-50ppm perhaps over time!
The engine mentioned by Amsoil can have an injector "issue" but I believe that those persons using an Approved engine oil have not experienced it. VW had not entirely dissimmilar issue with the TD-I engine - again incorrect lubricant use was the prime factor
More important than one anti-foaming test however is the engine maker's oil specification - the ACEA anti foaming test parameters are the same for both petrol and diesel engines. Some Oil Companies make a special blend for a specific engine family - for a specific purpose perhaps such as that you mentioned elsewhere
On my heavy diesel engines the average silicate readings over many millions of kms taken at OCI (90kkms) was 44ppm
In my 928 the average at OCI is 5ppm and the highest recorded was 22ppm due to an insecure air filter cover (thank you Brisbane Porsche)
Regards
Doug
the blender test would be interesting - and in the real world probably inconclusive!
I actually wrote a long passage on oil testing that I was going to post in your "Oil foaming" thread but it may have been interpreted as knocking Amsoil's products that is not my intent
Let me know if I should send it direct to you or post it!
Silicon polymers and organic copolymers (silaxanes) are Antifomamants and some other chemicals inter-react too. This is one reason why adding oil additives can at the best be somewhat "counterproductive".
To simply pour 200ml of concentrated silicon polymer into an engine would be a worry. The oil formulators and additive package makers have a lot of experience at "correctness" in this area
Amsoil purchase their base stocks from three Oil Companies I believe - the biggest supplier is ExxonMobil. They (Amsoil) purchase their additive packages from either of three suppliers - two at least are owned by Oil Companies - the biggest supplier is ExxonMobil
We are talking about only very small silicon concentrations from sealant leaching - in the 20-50ppm perhaps over time!
The engine mentioned by Amsoil can have an injector "issue" but I believe that those persons using an Approved engine oil have not experienced it. VW had not entirely dissimmilar issue with the TD-I engine - again incorrect lubricant use was the prime factor
More important than one anti-foaming test however is the engine maker's oil specification - the ACEA anti foaming test parameters are the same for both petrol and diesel engines. Some Oil Companies make a special blend for a specific engine family - for a specific purpose perhaps such as that you mentioned elsewhere
On my heavy diesel engines the average silicate readings over many millions of kms taken at OCI (90kkms) was 44ppm
In my 928 the average at OCI is 5ppm and the highest recorded was 22ppm due to an insecure air filter cover (thank you Brisbane Porsche)
Regards
Doug
05-27-2006, 10:42 PM
#44
Rennlist Member
Doug,
Please post on the oil foaming thread. The info I posted is from Amsoil but I posted it becauseof the silicon info. Aren't dessicants also added to oils as anti-foaming agents? I'm currently using Mobil truck/SUV 5W-40 and noticed my oil pressure runs about 4 bar at 2000rpm and 1.5- 2 bar at idle.
Please post on the oil foaming thread. The info I posted is from Amsoil but I posted it becauseof the silicon info. Aren't dessicants also added to oils as anti-foaming agents? I'm currently using Mobil truck/SUV 5W-40 and noticed my oil pressure runs about 4 bar at 2000rpm and 1.5- 2 bar at idle.
05-28-2006, 12:09 AM
#45
Doug, thank you very much for sharing your in-depth knowledge on oils for our cars. I've been running Mobil 1 15W-50 for ten years now b/c Leonard Laub and Ed Ruiz used to recommend it on the old Porsche Fans list, and I have no real independent knowledge. I change my oil every 12 mos. (usually 3-4 K mi) and am very relieved that you confirm that the Mobil 1 15-50 is a good product for our cars that presumably won't do any harm. I tried to find the T & SUV 5W-40 for my most recent change, but like many others have discovered, I couldn't find any. Walmart had 5 QT jugs of the Mobil 1 15W-50 so I stuck with it. I'm surprised DEVEK found the motor in bypass for 10 mins. The stuff seems to pour pretty freely even at room temp (which here in Alabama is usually pretty warm). I'll keep my eyes open for some Mobil 1 5W-40 for next year's change, but won't sweat about the 15W-50 I have in the car. Thanks again for your great info.
Steve
'89 S4 Auto
Steve
'89 S4 Auto