16-Valve consideration for a Daily Driver
03-03-2006, 05:37 PM
#16
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Originally Posted by m21sniper
Hmmm, my '83 sure isn't missing 80hp vs an S4. In fact i suspect i could put a pretty good spanking on a stock S4 in a simple 0-100 run. 
Hell, my 79 will smoke a stock 83, I've toased 3 83-84's already with it. Automatics? Even worse (talking straightline, from a stop and highway rolling)
03-03-2006, 06:41 PM
#17
Burning Brakes
Hi Stig,
To answer your original questions:
1) I have had great experiences with my '83S. I have had it for nearly 20 years. I bought it with only 10K miles! It was my daily driver for over ten years and now is my Sunday hotrod. It has been one of my most reliable cars. Lots of low-end, butter-smooth torque, great handling, easy to work on. I like to think of this era of EFI cars as still simple enough to understand and fix, but advanced enough to be reliable and get great economy (20MPG+ no problem in mixed driving for me, and still in high teens even with hard street driving). Sure, these years have their weak spots (tranny, some electrical etc.) but I would definitely recommend one if it has been maintained well.
2) Regarding the exhaust, I wouldn't change a thing. I love the stock sound; it's not intrusive but is still impressive, it may contribute to the nice low-end torque I enjoy, and I do not think that many HP are waiting here anyway. Weighing all the pros and cons, I can't justify changing anything. Of course, YMMV and it all depends on what you want from the car -- I certainly have no problem with folks who decide the other way. For me, I enjoy keeping the car quite stock.
3) The wheel offsets on '83-'84 are the same as, e.g., the '87 (fronts at least are identical; rear '87's might differ because of the increased width but I forget.) I run an S4 wheel set on my '83 (one of my only 'changes' to the car) because I wanted a bit more rear traction but didn't want aftermarket. There are several web sites you can find that give the offsets for the various wheels/years. There were some differences in offset, spacers etc. as someone mentioned with different models over the years (esp. GT and GTS).
Happy hunting!
Rick
To answer your original questions:
1) I have had great experiences with my '83S. I have had it for nearly 20 years. I bought it with only 10K miles! It was my daily driver for over ten years and now is my Sunday hotrod. It has been one of my most reliable cars. Lots of low-end, butter-smooth torque, great handling, easy to work on. I like to think of this era of EFI cars as still simple enough to understand and fix, but advanced enough to be reliable and get great economy (20MPG+ no problem in mixed driving for me, and still in high teens even with hard street driving). Sure, these years have their weak spots (tranny, some electrical etc.) but I would definitely recommend one if it has been maintained well.
2) Regarding the exhaust, I wouldn't change a thing. I love the stock sound; it's not intrusive but is still impressive, it may contribute to the nice low-end torque I enjoy, and I do not think that many HP are waiting here anyway. Weighing all the pros and cons, I can't justify changing anything. Of course, YMMV and it all depends on what you want from the car -- I certainly have no problem with folks who decide the other way. For me, I enjoy keeping the car quite stock.
3) The wheel offsets on '83-'84 are the same as, e.g., the '87 (fronts at least are identical; rear '87's might differ because of the increased width but I forget.) I run an S4 wheel set on my '83 (one of my only 'changes' to the car) because I wanted a bit more rear traction but didn't want aftermarket. There are several web sites you can find that give the offsets for the various wheels/years. There were some differences in offset, spacers etc. as someone mentioned with different models over the years (esp. GT and GTS).
Happy hunting!
Rick
03-03-2006, 07:05 PM
#18
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Stig... see the avatar; that's us. Up & down w.coast 3 times,
mountains, flats, straights & twisties; 'round town, urban
driving, surface & thruways, no problems. Mileage in mid-
teens and low 20's (hiway, "spirited" & cruise).
Normal maintenance, even less than many do, I believe.
Been out to the track a few times. No complaints.
G'luck.
p.s. It's a balmy day here at 48 deg. north, above Duluth,
Minn and Augusta, Maine. (flannel)Shirt sleeve weather,
right Heinrich? I grabbed the gas can, filled the tank and
pulled the rope (on the lawnmower !). After once 'round
the yard I'll have earned a shark ride... turn the key...
BWAAAHHHHH.
mountains, flats, straights & twisties; 'round town, urban
driving, surface & thruways, no problems. Mileage in mid-
teens and low 20's (hiway, "spirited" & cruise).
Normal maintenance, even less than many do, I believe.
Been out to the track a few times. No complaints.
G'luck.
p.s. It's a balmy day here at 48 deg. north, above Duluth,
Minn and Augusta, Maine. (flannel)Shirt sleeve weather,
right Heinrich? I grabbed the gas can, filled the tank and
pulled the rope (on the lawnmower !). After once 'round
the yard I'll have earned a shark ride... turn the key...
BWAAAHHHHH.
03-03-2006, 08:03 PM
#19
Rocket Pilot
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Originally Posted by m21sniper
Hmmm, my '83 sure isn't missing 80hp vs an S4. In fact i suspect i could put a pretty good spanking on a stock S4 in a simple 0-100 run.
Kevin
03-03-2006, 08:19 PM
#20
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A 16V should be much easier to work on than a 32V. It will weigh less, so the hp decrease shouldn't be as noticable. If you don't want a performance decrease, get a Euro S or S2. The US L-jet system is pretty much bulletproof. As a daily driver, an old 16V will be cheaper to buy and cheaper to repair.
For wheels, the only big differences in stock wheel fitment are GTS flares and rolled fender lips. Other than that, fitment should be the same for all years.
For wheels, the only big differences in stock wheel fitment are GTS flares and rolled fender lips. Other than that, fitment should be the same for all years.
03-03-2006, 10:02 PM
#21
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Originally Posted by Hacker-Pschorr
Why all the talk about gas mileage? Your right foot will make the biggest difference. Around town driving & highway my 79 gets better mileage than my 81. Might have something to do with my 79 having headers and an almost zero restriction exhaust. Not to mention if I stand in it in town, every cop within a 10 block radius will know where I am.
03-03-2006, 11:07 PM
#22
Originally Posted by Kevin Michael
Snipe, no offense , as I have always respected your knowledge and willingness to help, and have always enjoyed your posts/threads here. But........I live in Gettysburg about 2 hrs. from you and I'd be willin' to bet the wife, without a SC or a strong shot of nitrous(150) ,my 87 s4 5spd would keep at least a 6 car or greater distance all the way to 100, and if you did'nt have serious mods it would be alot more. i love the 83 as I owned one (a euro 5spd modded) and love all 928 variations. Kevin
KevinBest quarter mile run: 13.67@103.1mph
Some actual S4 times from dragslips.com:
http://www.dragtimes.com/Porsche-928-Timeslip-3358.html
14.3 seems to be about average.
If you want to line em up for fun gimme a call.
215-760-0201.
Bill.
03-04-2006, 05:11 AM
#23
Fleet of Foot
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C'mon guys, back on topic here. Andy is not talking about modding an L-jet car, and if he were to mod one, it would be his S4, not the L-jet. Anyway Sniper, imagine your mods on an S4 engine. We're talking basically stock vs, stock here, as Hacker pointed out. I know Andy 
& he would quickly become frustrated with the difference in power between the 2 if he bought an L-jet 928. As I said, an 85-86 is more like it.
& he would quickly become frustrated with the difference in power between the 2 if he bought an L-jet 928. As I said, an 85-86 is more like it.
03-04-2006, 08:53 AM
#24
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I applaud your notion of finding an "Old Boy"
[I hate that term! What about "Original Body" instead..... ]
as a daily driver.
-What I think you'll notice most when driving an OB versus your S4 is the difference in feel of the car. Before I bought my S2, I drove several 928's, including an S4 and what I noticed was that the S4 felt much more like a luxury car than the earlier versions. It was smoother, quieter, felt more substantial in general. This could have been just a very tight car, but I suspect it was the result of better sound insulation and greater weight in general. Then I drove my current car, which felt like a go-cart in comparison. Loud and rough-riding, it had a nervous character that just made it feel more like a performance car than that S4 and I was hooked [well...that and what happened when the tach went past 3500 RPM!]. I probably should have kept looking...but $20,000 later I have something pretty decent.
Brakes: I'm quite happy with the single-piston brakes on my '85. The only time that I've noticed any problem performance-wise with them was my one jaunt down the Blue Ridge Parkway a few years ago, where I noticed considerable fade after several miles. That might have had something to do with the speeds that I was carrying....
As always...buy the MOST EXPENSIVE AND BEST CAR YOU CAN FIND. Unless you're looking for a big $ restoration project...
b Safe!
N!
[I hate that term! What about "Original Body" instead.....
]as a daily driver.
-What I think you'll notice most when driving an OB versus your S4 is the difference in feel of the car. Before I bought my S2, I drove several 928's, including an S4 and what I noticed was that the S4 felt much more like a luxury car than the earlier versions. It was smoother, quieter, felt more substantial in general. This could have been just a very tight car, but I suspect it was the result of better sound insulation and greater weight in general. Then I drove my current car, which felt like a go-cart in comparison. Loud and rough-riding, it had a nervous character that just made it feel more like a performance car than that S4 and I was hooked [well...that and what happened when the tach went past 3500 RPM!]. I probably should have kept looking...but $20,000 later I have something pretty decent.
Brakes: I'm quite happy with the single-piston brakes on my '85. The only time that I've noticed any problem performance-wise with them was my one jaunt down the Blue Ridge Parkway a few years ago, where I noticed considerable fade after several miles. That might have had something to do with the speeds that I was carrying....
As always...buy the MOST EXPENSIVE AND BEST CAR YOU CAN FIND. Unless you're looking for a big $ restoration project...
b Safe!
N!
03-04-2006, 10:20 AM
#25
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Hmmm, my '83 sure isn't missing 80hp vs an S4. In fact i suspect i could put a pretty good spanking on a stock S4 in a simple 0-100 run.
03-04-2006, 12:24 PM
#26
Race Director
Originally Posted by m21sniper
Anytime you are ready my friend.
Best quarter mile run: 13.67@103.1mph
Some actual S4 times from dragslips.com:
http://www.dragtimes.com/Porsche-928-Timeslip-3358.html
14.3 seems to be about average.
If you want to line em up for fun gimme a call.
215-760-0201.
Bill.
Best quarter mile run: 13.67@103.1mph
Some actual S4 times from dragslips.com:
http://www.dragtimes.com/Porsche-928-Timeslip-3358.html
14.3 seems to be about average.
If you want to line em up for fun gimme a call.
215-760-0201.
Bill.
I think what Kevin is saying is a properly running S4 5 speed will beat a properly running 83 auto...granted your car is far from stock..it probably has a 5.0L bottom end in it with Euro cams-intake or more? Plus you took a bunch of weight out of the car too!
Just remember a stock S4 5 speed ran a 13.9 1/4 way back in the day for road & track....one with an x-pipe would be right about where your best run was! A stock 83 auto does a 7.2 0-60 with a 15.5 1/4 mile!!!
My S4 is currently the slowest on dragtimes.com....but still bettered a "stock" S4's published times with no tricks, just a bone stock car + RMB and a floor it and go start (no power braking at all)....with some tricks (weight reduction-tire pressure-power braking launch) I should be able to shave about .5 a second off that! 14.0 for a near stock S4 auto is very quick!
03-04-2006, 04:33 PM
#27
I think the point i was ultimately trying to make is that getting an 83 OB to giddyup and go aint all that hard, so it should not be the reason someone shies away from one.
The 83 16v has a much more 'hot roddish' feel(the 16v cars 'feel' a lot more raw and undulating, at least to me) and SOUND than the uber sophistication of the 32v mill, and a lot of people REALLY like that 16v sound and feel. It's also non-interference(in all cases for US motors, and in some cases for the Euros), it has the super reliable L-jet injection, and it does not suffer from the TBF issue.
So to me i would not let it's meager stock 234hp rating scare someone off. Doing only the exhaust (headers, free-flowing x-pipe true dual exhaust) you're going to get about 270hp from an 83 US model. It doesn't take much more to get from 270hp to the 288hp of the 32v S cars.
PS: I really do not know fully what all is done to my car. I suspect i have a stroker motor of some sort(Lance planted that idea in my head after i ran his 83 Euro with the nitrous), and as you said it's really been lightened, off-road exhaust, etc. I would love to run the fella in the S4 though. I've run a fellow 83US, an 83Euro, and an 85US, and my Shark has yet to meet it's equal in standing start acceleration from any 928 i've lined up against.
Actually, what i'd really like to do is run a GT or GTS from 0-100.
The 83 16v has a much more 'hot roddish' feel(the 16v cars 'feel' a lot more raw and undulating, at least to me) and SOUND than the uber sophistication of the 32v mill, and a lot of people REALLY like that 16v sound and feel. It's also non-interference(in all cases for US motors, and in some cases for the Euros), it has the super reliable L-jet injection, and it does not suffer from the TBF issue.
So to me i would not let it's meager stock 234hp rating scare someone off. Doing only the exhaust (headers, free-flowing x-pipe true dual exhaust) you're going to get about 270hp from an 83 US model. It doesn't take much more to get from 270hp to the 288hp of the 32v S cars.
PS: I really do not know fully what all is done to my car. I suspect i have a stroker motor of some sort(Lance planted that idea in my head after i ran his 83 Euro with the nitrous), and as you said it's really been lightened, off-road exhaust, etc. I would love to run the fella in the S4 though. I've run a fellow 83US, an 83Euro, and an 85US, and my Shark has yet to meet it's equal in standing start acceleration from any 928 i've lined up against.
Actually, what i'd really like to do is run a GT or GTS from 0-100.
03-04-2006, 07:36 PM
#28
Rocket Pilot
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Snipe, I know this is friendly and not a pissing contest, but my car consistently does a 5.2 0-60 on stock tire pressure. Never tried it at 20psi, but if I did It would be comfortable to assume a 5 flat. I think that would be a mid 13 or better? The factory claimed 5.5 and r&t confirmed in their test,but I have a few mods. According to your dragtime you must be hitting 60 at a 5.3 or 4? THAT is very quick! Kevin
03-05-2006, 12:54 AM
#30
Originally Posted by Kevin Michael
Snipe, I know this is friendly and not a pissing contest, but my car consistently does a 5.2 0-60 on stock tire pressure. Never tried it at 20psi, but if I did It would be comfortable to assume a 5 flat. I think that would be a mid 13 or better? The factory claimed 5.5 and r&t confirmed in their test,but I have a few mods. According to your dragtime you must be hitting 60 at a 5.3 or 4? THAT is very quick! Kevin
It's really hard to equate 0-60 to 1/4 mile times because of gearing. A car can be geared to turn an awesome 0-60 and be a lackluster 1/4 mile performer or vice versa. 5.0 is a nice time though. Certainly into the high 13s i would guess.
I ran my Shark once on my friends GTECH not long after i got it. At the time it was still at stock weight(spare tire and pump n' all), with stock exhaust, and it ws turning a fairly consistent six flat, with a few runs in the 5.8 to 5.9 range. The car is about 350lbs lighter and has a full off-road racing exhaust now.
It also has a custom modified hi-stall converter(approx 2600rpm) with LSD, and the trans has been modified to always starts in first. I added the manual kickdown switch too(of course). Suspension wise i have Bilstien/eibachs with a 928SP HD front swaybar and i'm running wider 245/45/16s all the way around.
It's a pretty fast car.