mspiegle

I want to start this by saying that i've always had 2 attainable dreamcars. An E30 M3 and a 928 S4. I had never driven an E30 M3 before, but my first car was an '87 325IS and I was blown away when I saw pictures of the M3.

Very recently, i've had an itch to start going to DEs and doing some track time. This mostly stems from my best friend who recently got into it ('99 E36 M3), and he's got me hooked on hitting the canyons in my area every other night. Now I want to move up to the next level (and more safety) by doing this at a track.

About a week ago, I had a golden opportunity. A 1989 E30 M3. It was originally zinno-red, and repainted henna (a red-orange color), it had no interior, the paint looked like crap, but it only had 115K miles and the price was right at $6K. Since it was to primarilly be a track car, I could care less about the lack of interior and paint. I gave the guy a deposit and he told me to drive the car around for a while and make sure its what I REALLY wanted. After driving it around, I concluded that the car had never been serviced in its life and I would be dumping about $4K into the car just to make it somewhat track-worthy. I figured as long as the compression on the engine checks out, i'd buy it because with the low mileage - the car should be worth about $10K. Later, while examining the car, I found out it had been in a really nasty accident and that was a total deal-breaker to me. There's no way the car could ever be worth $10K (if I needed to sell it later), and it was worth more in parts.

Despite the bad experience, I had a BLAST driving the car around. It was everything I ever dreamed it could be. It was fast, very light/nimble, and it was very rare. I'll be giving the car back over the weekend, and I feel really bad about it.

So... you might be able to see where this is going. Both of my dreamcars are very attainable and I WILL own both of them at some point in time. I've already owned a 928S, and it was a great car, but I only did 1 canyon run with it. From what I remember, it was a much heavier car that responded slower than the M3 and it didn't have the thrill of getting 75% of your power from 5K - 7500RPMs like the revvy 4-cylinder S14 in the M3 did.

For those of you who have driven both cars as-is in stock-form, how do you feel they compare? I wish I could take both of them on a track and beat the crap out of them until I fell in love with one or the other, but I don't have that luxury right now. If I got the M3 now, i'd get a 928 later. If I got a 928 now, i'd get an M3 later. The only reason i'm swaying towards the M3 is because I feel it is a better track car - and the track is what I desire at this point in time.

BC

I think you need to think about the ages, and upkeep. I mean, I think you are already, but have you driven a 928 with:

New or solid Rack bushings.
New Tie Rods
New Ball Joints
New upper A-arm bushings
New Shocks
New Springs
New Shift Bushings

18" high-performance rubber/

I think you would do well with a 78 track car, stripped, dipped, and motored. Big Brakes, and thats it.

It would weigh about 2900 or so, maybe less, and you could build a 5.0 2V (or if you really wanted) a 32V

To buy an S4 for the track would be more money, but more car is there, possibly requiring less time.

It still needs to be stripped and put back together "light" though.

BC

And so it is truth, I have extensive driving in an Earlyish M3.

A different story however, if we are talking about a new M3.

mspiegle

Thanks for your response Brendan - I do value it. I have driven a pretty fresh
94 GTS somewhat recently. I went through the twisties with it a couple times, but I definately didn't do a *****-out canyon run with it. After that, I went through the same twisties with a total granny-car ('88 325E). I must sadly say that I had far more fun in the 325E than I did in the GTS.

As far as the '79, I have no doubt that I could take a 16-valver, strip it down, and make it an awesome track car, but at the same time... a stripped down '80s M3 will weigh in at under 2500lbs. That's why I wanted to put in the stock-for-stock comparison. I didn't want to take out too many creature comforts because i'd like to take this car out on the weekends too.

Actually... the S4 would cost me LESS money strangely. Which is definately a plus. The parts for the E30 M3 are so rare now that it costs a buttload to do anything. On top of that, the only thing you can do to increase power is go into the engine. $5K later, you might have 215rwhp.... but 215 is definately alot when you only have 2300-2400LBS.

So, what did you think of the M3 when you drove it?

Stan.Shaw@Excell.Net

I have never driven an E30 M3, but it has a racing heritage. I have an E36 M3 and also a track prepared 928. In stock form the 928 felt much heavier, even though both cars were about the same weight. When I prepared them both for the track, the performance was comparable.

I would expect the E30 M3 is a better track car in stock form. The weight of the S4 is too much to overcome, regardless of the extra hp. The S4 might be a better track car when lightened, as the performance would be better, and the reliability of the S4 might be higher.

The racing heritage of the E30 M3 makes motor maintenance more costly than the 928 if I recall correctly.

marton

An M3 is a far better track car than the S4 could be.
As somebody else said, you can not take enough weight out of a 928.

about models of 928 then a 928 s or s2 or GTS would all be better than an S4.

Of course if you want a daily driver that you can drive to the track at a weekend and thrash round without changing anything then drive home again then choose the 928

for best track times; the M3

Marton

MarkRobinson

I love the E30 M3's, but no experience at all. But, I love watching Dennis K's 928 bully its way around the track.

If you REALLY want to be competitive on the track, there are more competitive cars, but at a higher price. If you want to be a more competitive driver, not having the best equipment might make you a better driver as it demands more of a learning curve. Anyone can tool a Zo6 around the track & beat a stock 928.

Last: you can gain a lot of handling out of semi-inexpensive suspension & brake mods on a 928, & the power is adequate for club events, probalby enough to go even/close to even with the M3s, but they won't be able to touch you on the straights, even with engine mods.

I put 3k into my '95 M3 back in '97: gained about 10rwhp/tq. Doh! I put $700 into my '86 928, picked up 30rwhp/tq, 70rw more than my M3, & at nearly the same weight. (E30 M3's are no where near as powerful as the E36's)

Richard S

You know the old saying.."It's more fun to drive a slow car fast, than a fast car slow."

Maybe post your question on the Rennlist 928 e-mail list. Bora may still be active over there. He sold his S4 to get an M3 track car, then sold the M3 to get an S4.

Rich

BC

GTSs were close to 3600. With you in it they could be 3700lbs. Passenger? Close to 4k. No wonder you had more fun in the 325. They ARE fun. They have set the bench standard for driver's sedans for, what, 20 years at least?

The M3 was too too too close to *gasp* this little crap piece of 1980 320i I have had to drive while "rethinking" my 928s at every nut and bolt.
It was as you say very very fun. Fast? No. But is tracking a car about ultimate speed? Not really I think - even if I have never even BEEN on a track in any car.

There is another logic gap here, as I have no other way to describe it.

Technicallym baring daily driver, wouldn't most of use have fun driving a Ford Taurus around a track if we could? Wouldn't it be a hoot? At least for a while. I know I could have fun driving alot of very mundane cars around a track. Speed isn't everything, and indeed did not C/D recently say (Maybe september issue) that the new solstice and Miatas, while quite slow, in relation, were MORE FUN to go around grattan or whatever race track in then the vaunted Z-06 and the spicy Viper? They mentioned trying out different apexes, and braking zones, where in the high-po cars you would be sweating at every little wiggle while trying to not have your skin fall off.

I am for better or worse attached to 928s now that I know them almost completly inside and out *never will be too smart to learn more though*.
The feel of them is something I am very familiar with.

But those BMWs are nice. A 928 si a very balanced package however, even with the weight penalty.

Jim bailey - 928 International

The S-4 has far more potential which is important because "stock" track cars seldom stay stock for very long nearly everyone adds wider rims,suspension,exhaust, lighter weight ,race seats and on and on and on !! Remember Mark Anderson Joe Fan etc. all started out with stock cars

mulik51

If I would be goin the BMW route, I wouldn't go with E30 M3, but I would go with 325. Bulletproof engine and you can have it for very little(under 3Gs). Then dump 7Gs in it, and for 10000$ car will fly...
Just my 2 cents,

Klim

mspiegle

You know what's funny.... I have a '90 325is sitting in a stall up on jackstands that I was going to turn into a track car. After driving the E30 M3 (and driving MANY 325s... i've probably owned 4), I think i'd rather put it back to stock and sell it for the $$$ i'll need for an E30 M3.

Larry928GTS

I remember a conversation I once had with a local car enthusiast. He had bought an old, small, light, but low power car not long before that point, so I asked him how it was running. He said that when he first got it, he was driving around to give it a good workout. He said he was full throttle, hard braking, upshifting, downshifting, hitting the apexes perfectly, tires screeching, and generally feeling like Mario Andretti. Then he looked down at the speedometer and saw that he was going like 25mph. Fun, but definitely not fast when an actual performance measure was referenced. He never really drove that car much at all, and sold it fairly soon.

mulik51

I think E30M comes with 4cyl engine and E30 325 comes with straight 6. THEORETICALLY I6 has more potential then I4(the best balanced configuration of ANY engine and known to run till 300000miles without rebuilts).
Also, cause it is straight six, to make a turbo for it should not be as hard to make it for S4 for example becouse you have A LOT more space.
Why do you say you would rather tune E30M then E30 325?

Klim

Warren928

I would get an 86.5 or S4 with a few cosmetic issues, add $2,000 for some hollowspoke 911 turbo 18x11"s wheel/tire combo off ebay, get the shock and spring upgrade used ($500) from a fellow rennlister, and buy a clean used SC ($3500) off someone here. Then Strip the car to save weight. Result?

500 hp, 2900 lbs, $10-11,000 total including the car, serious handling and a car that is definately more fun and the BMW.
But if you don't have the time to mess with that, the M3 is a lightweight beast. I drive a 2001 BMW 530i and I love that straight 6, its one kick *** engine.