View Poll Results: In stock form, would a 1989 E30 M3 be a better track car than a 928 S4?
E30 M3
9
40.91%
928 S4
13
59.09%
Voters: 22. You may not vote on this poll
Need opinion on track car: E30 M3 vs 928 S4 (long)
02-16-2006, 09:20 PM
#16
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 1,577
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by mulik51
I think E30M comes with 4cyl engine and E30 325 comes with straight 6. THEORETICALLY I6 has more potential then I4(the best balanced configuration of ANY engine and known to run till 300000miles without rebuilts).
Also, cause it is straight six, to make a turbo for it should not be as hard to make it for S4 for example becouse you have A LOT more space.
Why do you say you would rather tune E30M then E30 325?
Klim
Also, cause it is straight six, to make a turbo for it should not be as hard to make it for S4 for example becouse you have A LOT more space.
Why do you say you would rather tune E30M then E30 325?
Klim
The M20 engine (E30 325) is indeed a I6 with 168hp and 2.5L of displacement, but it is SOHC and 2v per cylinder. Once you stroke and bore it to 3.0L, you're still only getting 230-240hp out of it. There are guys who have turbo'd the motor to get some amazing power... but for the track, I would want a pure NA monster. The 928 S4 can be my powerhouse FI platform when i'm ready.
The S14 engine (E30 M3) is indeed a I4 with 2.3L of displacement, but it has DOHC and 4v per cylinder. In stock configuration, the engine puts out 196hp and can be raised to about 250hp without even touching the internals (alpha/n management, carbon fiber plenum, individual TB upgrade, cams, exhaust). You also have the option to convert the block to 2.5L, and do lots of headwork (springs/valves/port/polish/etc) and hit about 300hp. The head on the S14 is one of the best flowing designs ever made. In fact, a built up S14 head is capable of OUT FLOWING a stock S2000 head at low lifts. The S200 head does flow more at higher lifts, but the technology is 20 years newer and comes with VTEC.
02-16-2006, 09:41 PM
#17
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Wilbraham, MA
Posts: 2,758
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
> An M3 is a far better track car than the S4 could be.
Marton,
I can't agree with this, as I haven't seen any E30 M3s as quick at Lime Rock, as even my @300rwhp GT prepared 928. I expect Mark A. would be much faster, well under 1 minute.
Brendan,
My answer is "no". After you have tracked a well prepared car for a while, anything less is quite a bit less fun, and can be frustrating. Others may feel differently.
Marton,
I can't agree with this, as I haven't seen any E30 M3s as quick at Lime Rock, as even my @300rwhp GT prepared 928. I expect Mark A. would be much faster, well under 1 minute.
Brendan,
My answer is "no". After you have tracked a well prepared car for a while, anything less is quite a bit less fun, and can be frustrating. Others may feel differently.
02-16-2006, 10:16 PM
#18
Race Director
Mike
Granted some of the M3's that I see in MK's videos do seem very quick around a race track......but MK still beats these cars and has far less total $$$ invested in his 928....afterall that pumped up Evo is very fast.....but its still ugly as hell!!
Granted some of the M3's that I see in MK's videos do seem very quick around a race track......but MK still beats these cars and has far less total $$$ invested in his 928....afterall that pumped up Evo is very fast.....but its still ugly as hell!!
02-16-2006, 10:46 PM
#20
Three Wheelin'
I had a '95 E36 M3. That had the 240 HP 3.0 litre engine, before they bumped it up to 3.2L. I liked the car, but I never took it on the track. Quite frankly, I don't think that it would have held up. It is not light - between 3400 and 3500 lbs IIRC. As a start, the brakes on the US models were not worthy, would require an upgrade to something like the brembos that come stock on the S4. It does not strike me as a car that was overengineered, or should I say engineered for duty at 165MPH autobahn style day in and day out. That is one of the things that gives the 928 the ability to, after 15+ years and tens or a hundred thousand plus miles, be used as a reliable track car.
In fact, I have been at DEs with the current M3 - the 333hp version. The two that I saw at my DE's both had upgraded the stock US version brakes (even the current version saves the monoblock calipers for the European market). I have passed them in my '91 GT in stock form (pre-supercharger). I have never been passed by one. Of course a DE is not a race, but you can't tell me that a guy who just paid $60k+ for BMW's pocket rocket would be happy getting passed by Porsche's 15 year old discontinued GT. This was in Blue group so not the pure beginner stuff. And I am no great driver let me tell ya. I have not taken any weight out of my GT either. I guess what I am trying to say is that I have to believe that the S4/GT would have to have the most potential for the track. If you are looking for the one that you might 'enjoy' driving the most on the track, well, there are alot of guys pushing Miata's around on weekends. Not for me, though.
In fact, I have been at DEs with the current M3 - the 333hp version. The two that I saw at my DE's both had upgraded the stock US version brakes (even the current version saves the monoblock calipers for the European market). I have passed them in my '91 GT in stock form (pre-supercharger). I have never been passed by one. Of course a DE is not a race, but you can't tell me that a guy who just paid $60k+ for BMW's pocket rocket would be happy getting passed by Porsche's 15 year old discontinued GT. This was in Blue group so not the pure beginner stuff. And I am no great driver let me tell ya. I have not taken any weight out of my GT either. I guess what I am trying to say is that I have to believe that the S4/GT would have to have the most potential for the track. If you are looking for the one that you might 'enjoy' driving the most on the track, well, there are alot of guys pushing Miata's around on weekends. Not for me, though.
02-16-2006, 11:00 PM
#21
Drifting
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 3,348
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'd lean towards the 928s4, because of the fact that everything you need is already there.
It has the power. It has the suspension. It has the brakes.
All you need, is to put it on a diet....
And that does not cost anything, except time and effort.
It will cost you a lot more, to upgrade the BMW, if you feel like you really need a little more power... With the 928, the only upgrades would involve getting it lighter, or getting bigger brakes, or better suspension. And those things all cost a lot less than the price of engine mods on the BMW...
It has the power. It has the suspension. It has the brakes.
All you need, is to put it on a diet....
And that does not cost anything, except time and effort.
It will cost you a lot more, to upgrade the BMW, if you feel like you really need a little more power... With the 928, the only upgrades would involve getting it lighter, or getting bigger brakes, or better suspension. And those things all cost a lot less than the price of engine mods on the BMW...
02-16-2006, 11:26 PM
#22
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Wilbraham, MA
Posts: 2,758
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cameron,
I track my '96 E36 M3 often, and the brakes are just fine. Many cars you see at the track with all the upgrades, M3s included, are done "just because" or perhaps for the bling factor.
Now my M3 is well prepared for the track, but with @160k miles on it, is still reliable and has held up quite well.
I track my '96 E36 M3 often, and the brakes are just fine. Many cars you see at the track with all the upgrades, M3s included, are done "just because" or perhaps for the bling factor.
Now my M3 is well prepared for the track, but with @160k miles on it, is still reliable and has held up quite well.
02-16-2006, 11:39 PM
#24
Originally Posted by Stan.Shaw@Excell.Net
Brendan,
My answer is "no". After you have tracked a well prepared car for a while, anything less is quite a bit less fun, and can be frustrating. Others may feel differently.
My answer is "no". After you have tracked a well prepared car for a while, anything less is quite a bit less fun, and can be frustrating. Others may feel differently.
02-16-2006, 11:49 PM
#25
Race Car
Originally Posted by BrendanC
Hmm. Well, I'm gonna go with your word on this. I gotta get me to the track, even if its in the Euro auto.
02-17-2006, 12:10 AM
#26
Race Car
Since the question is the two cars in stock form, we really need to know what the weight of the M3 model you are looking at (in stock form) is.
We suspect that "stock form" will go through an evolution over time, becoming more and more of a track beast. S4 has really good potential with minimal upgrade costs involved. The evolution of the M3 beast will certainly involve a lot more money. In stock form, I would suspect that the M3 might be a little bit more fun due to some weight advantage. Sure, I really like the balance, stability, and handling of my heavy 928, but I can appreciate what a lighter car can do upon turn-in.
For me, the $$$ is not an insignificant factor and would comprise 1/2 of the decision.
I assume you are posting here so that we can talk you into a 928 track car and dissuade you from a Bimmer. So, buy the 928, it looks cooler.
We suspect that "stock form" will go through an evolution over time, becoming more and more of a track beast. S4 has really good potential with minimal upgrade costs involved. The evolution of the M3 beast will certainly involve a lot more money. In stock form, I would suspect that the M3 might be a little bit more fun due to some weight advantage. Sure, I really like the balance, stability, and handling of my heavy 928, but I can appreciate what a lighter car can do upon turn-in.
For me, the $$$ is not an insignificant factor and would comprise 1/2 of the decision.
I assume you are posting here so that we can talk you into a 928 track car and dissuade you from a Bimmer. So, buy the 928, it looks cooler.
02-17-2006, 02:35 AM
#27
Rennlist Member
The fastest driver in BMW history in the BMWCCA is still 2 seconds behind me with an E36 M3 . Im in a heated battle all year long with several of the fastest e36s around, with the euro 3.2 motors, cams, chips, etc. All of them are $40 to 60k race cars, yet im either winning or right there with a bone stock S4, with a set of headers and a bolt on street sport suspension. have you seen the tweeks to suspension pickup points to allow for larger rubber and strength? the rear subframes get torn apart if not strengthened. most of these guys have a lot of money in suspension components as well as camber plates, and cages with bars that go everywhere. (many are replicas of the PTG M3s you have seen racing in SpeedGT and Touring) e30s are a little lighter, but dont have the hp potential. top E30 engines are in the 245rwhp, and are expensive and very highstrung. the e36s are in the 285 rwhp range and weigh near 2600lbs while the e30s weigh near 2450.
so , to answer your question, or comment, the 928 is a very close competitor to the e30. In fact, my old stock 79 with a muffler change, ran a 2:10 at Thunderhill. this is faster than most all of the stock M3 e30s ever to touch the track.
Now, S4 vs e30?? stock vs stock?? it will be a very close battle. with mod for mod comparison, well, you have seen the times ive posted with a stock S4 and less mods than most highschool kid's cars!
check out the video clip. lots of good drivers in some pretty hot M3s racing around during my racing seasons.
If you want to see what my stock s4 looks like compared to a 2002 M3, well , the video shows it all. good driver, good car, big r compound tires, much more expensive than my 928, and look, its still a second or two slower! Also, ran against a fairly stock one in a pro race too. (still 314rwhp, but lapped it!)
where else can you find bullet proof racing 300+ rear wheel hp with only a set of headers!??
check out :
http://m3ma420.com/archive.html
Mk
so , to answer your question, or comment, the 928 is a very close competitor to the e30. In fact, my old stock 79 with a muffler change, ran a 2:10 at Thunderhill. this is faster than most all of the stock M3 e30s ever to touch the track.
Now, S4 vs e30?? stock vs stock?? it will be a very close battle. with mod for mod comparison, well, you have seen the times ive posted with a stock S4 and less mods than most highschool kid's cars!
check out the video clip. lots of good drivers in some pretty hot M3s racing around during my racing seasons.
If you want to see what my stock s4 looks like compared to a 2002 M3, well , the video shows it all. good driver, good car, big r compound tires, much more expensive than my 928, and look, its still a second or two slower! Also, ran against a fairly stock one in a pro race too. (still 314rwhp, but lapped it!)
where else can you find bullet proof racing 300+ rear wheel hp with only a set of headers!??
check out :
http://m3ma420.com/archive.html
Mk
Originally Posted by marton
An M3 is a far better track car than the S4 could be.
As somebody else said, you can not take enough weight out of a 928.
about models of 928 then a 928 s or s2 or GTS would all be better than an S4.
Of course if you want a daily driver that you can drive to the track at a weekend and thrash round without changing anything then drive home again then choose the 928
for best track times; the M3
Marton
As somebody else said, you can not take enough weight out of a 928.
about models of 928 then a 928 s or s2 or GTS would all be better than an S4.
Of course if you want a daily driver that you can drive to the track at a weekend and thrash round without changing anything then drive home again then choose the 928
for best track times; the M3
Marton
02-17-2006, 02:56 AM
#28
Rennlist Member
one more thought.
No one has raced the M3 e30 or e36s more than I have. remeber, I had the pleasure of racing with nasa and the bmw/porsche challenge races, with my stockish 84 part euro. i had stock replacement suspension, headers wheels and tires. it was very evenly matched to some of the faster e30s. (not the very fastest) Later with the 5 liter euro engine, (still basically less than stock of a US '85) i would make sport of the e30s ,and only the ones with the very expensive S14 2.5 liter race engines, would have a chance. with the s4, ive run faster times with hardly any mods.
the S4 when just gutted, gets to 2700lbs, the e30 gets in the 2450lbs range. (but, its no where near a street car in that form, and the 928 can still get away with driving on the street, pretty comfortably too!)
Again, no one is more qualified to do this comparison than me. 10 years of racing nose to tail with these cars. they are awesome!, but you need to know about tuining, you need to spend some bucks and you cant dual purpose the car as easy as you can with a S4. You just cant beat the bang for the buck that the 928 has. I remember discussions with my m3 racer buddies, saying that my 84 was so far from stock. in actuality, it was a hodge podge of bone stock components from 82 euro, 84 US ,and 86US. all stock components, nothing custom. the e30 guys had all sorts of engine mods, plus the darn things were all strokers@!!!!!!!! 2.5 liter vs the stock 2.3 liter . the most any of them put to the wheels was 250ish HP. If i do a stroker with a 928, what happens?????? exactly!
MK
No one has raced the M3 e30 or e36s more than I have. remeber, I had the pleasure of racing with nasa and the bmw/porsche challenge races, with my stockish 84 part euro. i had stock replacement suspension, headers wheels and tires. it was very evenly matched to some of the faster e30s. (not the very fastest) Later with the 5 liter euro engine, (still basically less than stock of a US '85) i would make sport of the e30s ,and only the ones with the very expensive S14 2.5 liter race engines, would have a chance. with the s4, ive run faster times with hardly any mods.
the S4 when just gutted, gets to 2700lbs, the e30 gets in the 2450lbs range. (but, its no where near a street car in that form, and the 928 can still get away with driving on the street, pretty comfortably too!)
Again, no one is more qualified to do this comparison than me. 10 years of racing nose to tail with these cars. they are awesome!, but you need to know about tuining, you need to spend some bucks and you cant dual purpose the car as easy as you can with a S4. You just cant beat the bang for the buck that the 928 has. I remember discussions with my m3 racer buddies, saying that my 84 was so far from stock. in actuality, it was a hodge podge of bone stock components from 82 euro, 84 US ,and 86US. all stock components, nothing custom. the e30 guys had all sorts of engine mods, plus the darn things were all strokers@!!!!!!!! 2.5 liter vs the stock 2.3 liter . the most any of them put to the wheels was 250ish HP. If i do a stroker with a 928, what happens?????? exactly!
MK
02-17-2006, 03:00 AM
#29
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 1,577
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I do specifically remember watching the video from the POV of the e36 M3 that could never get in front of you. Driving an E36 M3 and an E30 M3 are completely different, but I think most people will agree that the E36 M3 does slightly outhandle the E30 M3 (even though it only weighs 2700 in bone stock form, compared to 3175 for the E36).
Just for those who are curious, here's the stats on the E30 M3:
195hp @ 6500rpm
170ft/lbs @ 4600rpm
2302cc displacement
10.5:1 Compression
143mph top speed
2724lbs
4.10 @ 25% LSD
5 gears (4th is overdrive)
Total cars produced for USA: 4996
7200 max rpm (7800 with chip, 8500+ with headwork)
I really like the potential of the S14 motor that comes with the car. You can have a streetable 250rwhp 2.5L motor after increasing the stroke and doing headwork. If you go all out, the "Group A" Sport Evolution car is 285rwhp @ 8500rpm in a 2100lbs chassis.... but that's far from being streetable in any way. Also, the rarity of the car is very attractive to me. There were about 5x as many 928s sold in the US durings it production run as compared to the E30 M3.
I've gotten lots of good response, and I really appreciate the opinions of those who have driven both. I think i'm going to test the motor for good compression and see if an alignment checks out. If the compression reads consistently over 200 (very healthy motor) and the alignment is good, I might take the plunge....
Just for those who are curious, here's the stats on the E30 M3:
195hp @ 6500rpm
170ft/lbs @ 4600rpm
2302cc displacement
10.5:1 Compression
143mph top speed
2724lbs
4.10 @ 25% LSD
5 gears (4th is overdrive)
Total cars produced for USA: 4996
7200 max rpm (7800 with chip, 8500+ with headwork)
I really like the potential of the S14 motor that comes with the car. You can have a streetable 250rwhp 2.5L motor after increasing the stroke and doing headwork. If you go all out, the "Group A" Sport Evolution car is 285rwhp @ 8500rpm in a 2100lbs chassis.... but that's far from being streetable in any way. Also, the rarity of the car is very attractive to me. There were about 5x as many 928s sold in the US durings it production run as compared to the E30 M3.
I've gotten lots of good response, and I really appreciate the opinions of those who have driven both. I think i'm going to test the motor for good compression and see if an alignment checks out. If the compression reads consistently over 200 (very healthy motor) and the alignment is good, I might take the plunge....
Originally Posted by mark kibort
The fastest driver in BMW history in the BMWCCA is still 2 seconds behind me with an E36 M3 . Im in a heated battle all year long with several of the fastest e36s around, with the euro 3.2 motors, cams, chips, etc. All of them are $40 to 60k race cars, yet im either winning or right there with a bone stock S4, with a set of headers and a bolt on street sport suspension. have you seen the tweeks to suspension pickup points to allow for larger rubber and strength? the rear subframes get torn apart if not strengthened. most of these guys have a lot of money in suspension components as well as camber plates, and cages with bars that go everywhere. (many are replicas of the PTG M3s you have seen racing in SpeedGT and Touring) e30s are a little lighter, but dont have the hp potential. top E30 engines are in the 245rwhp, and are expensive and very highstrung. the e36s are in the 285 rwhp range and weigh near 2600lbs while the e30s weigh near 2450.
so , to answer your question, or comment, the 928 is a very close competitor to the e30. In fact, my old stock 79 with a muffler change, ran a 2:10 at Thunderhill. this is faster than most all of the stock M3 e30s ever to touch the track.
Now, S4 vs e30?? stock vs stock?? it will be a very close battle. with mod for mod comparison, well, you have seen the times ive posted with a stock S4 and less mods than most highschool kid's cars!
check out the video clip. lots of good drivers in some pretty hot M3s racing around during my racing seasons.
If you want to see what my stock s4 looks like compared to a 2002 M3, well , the video shows it all. good driver, good car, big r compound tires, much more expensive than my 928, and look, its still a second or two slower! Also, ran against a fairly stock one in a pro race too. (still 314rwhp, but lapped it!)
where else can you find bullet proof racing 300+ rear wheel hp with only a set of headers!??
Mk
so , to answer your question, or comment, the 928 is a very close competitor to the e30. In fact, my old stock 79 with a muffler change, ran a 2:10 at Thunderhill. this is faster than most all of the stock M3 e30s ever to touch the track.
Now, S4 vs e30?? stock vs stock?? it will be a very close battle. with mod for mod comparison, well, you have seen the times ive posted with a stock S4 and less mods than most highschool kid's cars!
check out the video clip. lots of good drivers in some pretty hot M3s racing around during my racing seasons.
If you want to see what my stock s4 looks like compared to a 2002 M3, well , the video shows it all. good driver, good car, big r compound tires, much more expensive than my 928, and look, its still a second or two slower! Also, ran against a fairly stock one in a pro race too. (still 314rwhp, but lapped it!)
where else can you find bullet proof racing 300+ rear wheel hp with only a set of headers!??
Mk
02-17-2006, 03:04 AM
#30
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 1,577
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You're very compelling... I had almost wished you didn't post this because I thought I had madeup my mind.
But, like I said earlier. No matter what I get now, i'm getting the other at a later time. Oh boy... big decisions...
But, like I said earlier. No matter what I get now, i'm getting the other at a later time. Oh boy... big decisions...
Originally Posted by mark kibort
one more thought.
No one has raced the M3 e30 or e36s more than I have. remeber, I had the pleasure of racing with nasa and the bmw/porsche challenge races, with my stockish 84 part euro. i had stock replacement suspension, headers wheels and tires. it was very evenly matched to some of the faster e30s. (not the very fastest) Later with the 5 liter euro engine, (still basically less than stock of a US '85) i would make sport of the e30s ,and only the ones with the very expensive S14 2.5 liter race engines, would have a chance. with the s4, ive run faster times with hardly any mods.
the S4 when just gutted, gets to 2700lbs, the e30 gets in the 2450lbs range. (but, its no where near a street car in that form, and the 928 can still get away with driving on the street, pretty comfortably too!)
Again, no one is more qualified to do this comparison than me. 10 years of racing nose to tail with these cars. they are awesome!, but you need to know about tuining, you need to spend some bucks and you cant dual purpose the car as easy as you can with a S4. You just cant beat the bang for the buck that the 928 has. I remember discussions with my m3 racer buddies, saying that my 84 was so far from stock. in actuality, it was a hodge podge of bone stock components from 82 euro, 84 US ,and 86US. all stock components, nothing custom. the e30 guys had all sorts of engine mods, plus the darn things were all strokers@!!!!!!!! 2.5 liter vs the stock 2.3 liter . the most any of them put to the wheels was 250ish HP. If i do a stroker with a 928, what happens?????? exactly!
MK
No one has raced the M3 e30 or e36s more than I have. remeber, I had the pleasure of racing with nasa and the bmw/porsche challenge races, with my stockish 84 part euro. i had stock replacement suspension, headers wheels and tires. it was very evenly matched to some of the faster e30s. (not the very fastest) Later with the 5 liter euro engine, (still basically less than stock of a US '85) i would make sport of the e30s ,and only the ones with the very expensive S14 2.5 liter race engines, would have a chance. with the s4, ive run faster times with hardly any mods.
the S4 when just gutted, gets to 2700lbs, the e30 gets in the 2450lbs range. (but, its no where near a street car in that form, and the 928 can still get away with driving on the street, pretty comfortably too!)
Again, no one is more qualified to do this comparison than me. 10 years of racing nose to tail with these cars. they are awesome!, but you need to know about tuining, you need to spend some bucks and you cant dual purpose the car as easy as you can with a S4. You just cant beat the bang for the buck that the 928 has. I remember discussions with my m3 racer buddies, saying that my 84 was so far from stock. in actuality, it was a hodge podge of bone stock components from 82 euro, 84 US ,and 86US. all stock components, nothing custom. the e30 guys had all sorts of engine mods, plus the darn things were all strokers@!!!!!!!! 2.5 liter vs the stock 2.3 liter . the most any of them put to the wheels was 250ish HP. If i do a stroker with a 928, what happens?????? exactly!
MK