Install yoiur own piston squirter
02-16-2006, 04:04 PM
#1
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Install yoiur own piston squirter
BLP Products has a do it yourself piston oiling system. It is an engine block modification that supplies pressurized lubrication to the wrist pin area and the bottom of the pistons.
If I had my motor out I would cetaily consider adding this to help keep piston temps down with forced induction.
I have a 2 page PDF how to install document but don't know how to post it on the list.
If I had my motor out I would cetaily consider adding this to help keep piston temps down with forced induction.
I have a 2 page PDF how to install document but don't know how to post it on the list.
02-16-2006, 04:54 PM
#3
I think you can somehow attach a PDF file to the post itself.
)
02-16-2006, 09:16 PM
#6
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Lifetime Rennlist
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Henrich,
What is going on with you?
More of the same what??!!
I offer to do something and you jump in with a comment
What is going on with you?
More of the same what??!!
I offer to do something and you jump in with a comment
Last edited by John Veninger; 02-16-2006 at 10:32 PM.
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07-08-2018, 11:33 AM
#9
Nordschleife Master
Blast from the past. I don't think this aftermarket kit came with check valves that have minimum opening pressure. I'd consider that necessary in a 928.
Has anybody actually bothered with installing piston oil cooling jets into a 928 block?
Has anybody actually bothered with installing piston oil cooling jets into a 928 block?
07-08-2018, 01:35 PM
#10
Banned
I probably know more about piston squirters for Porsche than most anyone, a distinction I am not necessarily proud of. I have a patent on the only rebuildable piston squirter for 911 motors, and I sell lots of my rebuildable piston squirter kits for 911 that are far and away superior to factory units. Much of what I do is totally not applicable to 928, HOWEVER let me comment on the minimum opening pressure bit.
Prior to making my improved squirters, I extensively tested factory squirters of all shapes and sizes. Stock Porsche squirters for 911 come in 6mm and 6.6mm OD sizes, with various orifice sizes that are sized to suit the application. Within, there is a simple ball and spring combo that acts as a check valve for oil pressure at idle; the common supposition is that the squirters open at 25-40 PSI. This is thought to maintain idle oil pressure.
In fact, in my testing, it was determined that factory squirters opened up with as little as 20 psi of water and in some cases, 10 psi of air. They are remarkably easy to open; and at say, 25 psi of water, they dribble. At 40-50 PSI they assume a spray pattern which is mainly caused due to the fluid bouncing on the spring inside the housing then exiting the orifice somewhat disrupted.
I build my squirters (check out my site) with the check valve, but I am here to tell you its a placebo for idle oil pressure. It does not, in my testing, radically alter the oil pressure whether the squirters are dribbling or wide open at idle. On a 911, we are talking (at best) 6 holes of 2.5 mm orifice (that is the largest orifice size btw), and the oil that flows through those tiny holes is NOT ENOUGH to affect the oil pressure of the car no matter what condition the motor is running in, even though each squirter is putting out around 1.75L of oil per minute each. The oil pump is just too capable of pumping oil and the squirters are barely noticed.
I suspect on a 928 the result would be the same, and if you could somehow put 8 of my squirters in a 928 block, you would find your oil pressure to be the same whether they were opened or closed, although the reduced piston temps would be a definite benefit.
Here are mine. http://www.taorminaracingdesigns.com...-squirter.html
Click on the order page to see pics of the units themselves. Sold almost a hundred sets of these thus far, they are popular.
Prior to making my improved squirters, I extensively tested factory squirters of all shapes and sizes. Stock Porsche squirters for 911 come in 6mm and 6.6mm OD sizes, with various orifice sizes that are sized to suit the application. Within, there is a simple ball and spring combo that acts as a check valve for oil pressure at idle; the common supposition is that the squirters open at 25-40 PSI. This is thought to maintain idle oil pressure.
In fact, in my testing, it was determined that factory squirters opened up with as little as 20 psi of water and in some cases, 10 psi of air. They are remarkably easy to open; and at say, 25 psi of water, they dribble. At 40-50 PSI they assume a spray pattern which is mainly caused due to the fluid bouncing on the spring inside the housing then exiting the orifice somewhat disrupted.
I build my squirters (check out my site) with the check valve, but I am here to tell you its a placebo for idle oil pressure. It does not, in my testing, radically alter the oil pressure whether the squirters are dribbling or wide open at idle. On a 911, we are talking (at best) 6 holes of 2.5 mm orifice (that is the largest orifice size btw), and the oil that flows through those tiny holes is NOT ENOUGH to affect the oil pressure of the car no matter what condition the motor is running in, even though each squirter is putting out around 1.75L of oil per minute each. The oil pump is just too capable of pumping oil and the squirters are barely noticed.
I suspect on a 928 the result would be the same, and if you could somehow put 8 of my squirters in a 928 block, you would find your oil pressure to be the same whether they were opened or closed, although the reduced piston temps would be a definite benefit.
Here are mine. http://www.taorminaracingdesigns.com...-squirter.html
Click on the order page to see pics of the units themselves. Sold almost a hundred sets of these thus far, they are popular.
07-08-2018, 03:36 PM
#11
Nordschleife Master
I probably know more about piston squirters for Porsche than most anyone, a distinction I am not necessarily proud of. I have a patent on the only rebuildable piston squirter for 911 motors, and I sell lots of my rebuildable piston squirter kits for 911 that are far and away superior to factory units. Much of what I do is totally not applicable to 928, HOWEVER let me comment on the minimum opening pressure bit.
Prior to making my improved squirters, I extensively tested factory squirters of all shapes and sizes. Stock Porsche squirters for 911 come in 6mm and 6.6mm OD sizes, with various orifice sizes that are sized to suit the application. Within, there is a simple ball and spring combo that acts as a check valve for oil pressure at idle; the common supposition is that the squirters open at 25-40 PSI. This is thought to maintain idle oil pressure.
In fact, in my testing, it was determined that factory squirters opened up with as little as 20 psi of water and in some cases, 10 psi of air. They are remarkably easy to open; and at say, 25 psi of water, they dribble. At 40-50 PSI they assume a spray pattern which is mainly caused due to the fluid bouncing on the spring inside the housing then exiting the orifice somewhat disrupted.
I build my squirters (check out my site) with the check valve, but I am here to tell you its a placebo for idle oil pressure. It does not, in my testing, radically alter the oil pressure whether the squirters are dribbling or wide open at idle. On a 911, we are talking (at best) 6 holes of 2.5 mm orifice (that is the largest orifice size btw), and the oil that flows through those tiny holes is NOT ENOUGH to affect the oil pressure of the car no matter what condition the motor is running in, even though each squirter is putting out around 1.75L of oil per minute each. The oil pump is just too capable of pumping oil and the squirters are barely noticed.
I suspect on a 928 the result would be the same, and if you could somehow put 8 of my squirters in a 928 block, you would find your oil pressure to be the same whether they were opened or closed, although the reduced piston temps would be a definite benefit.
Here are mine. http://www.taorminaracingdesigns.com...-squirter.html
Click on the order page to see pics of the units themselves. Sold almost a hundred sets of these thus far, they are popular.
Prior to making my improved squirters, I extensively tested factory squirters of all shapes and sizes. Stock Porsche squirters for 911 come in 6mm and 6.6mm OD sizes, with various orifice sizes that are sized to suit the application. Within, there is a simple ball and spring combo that acts as a check valve for oil pressure at idle; the common supposition is that the squirters open at 25-40 PSI. This is thought to maintain idle oil pressure.
In fact, in my testing, it was determined that factory squirters opened up with as little as 20 psi of water and in some cases, 10 psi of air. They are remarkably easy to open; and at say, 25 psi of water, they dribble. At 40-50 PSI they assume a spray pattern which is mainly caused due to the fluid bouncing on the spring inside the housing then exiting the orifice somewhat disrupted.
I build my squirters (check out my site) with the check valve, but I am here to tell you its a placebo for idle oil pressure. It does not, in my testing, radically alter the oil pressure whether the squirters are dribbling or wide open at idle. On a 911, we are talking (at best) 6 holes of 2.5 mm orifice (that is the largest orifice size btw), and the oil that flows through those tiny holes is NOT ENOUGH to affect the oil pressure of the car no matter what condition the motor is running in, even though each squirter is putting out around 1.75L of oil per minute each. The oil pump is just too capable of pumping oil and the squirters are barely noticed.
I suspect on a 928 the result would be the same, and if you could somehow put 8 of my squirters in a 928 block, you would find your oil pressure to be the same whether they were opened or closed, although the reduced piston temps would be a definite benefit.
Here are mine. http://www.taorminaracingdesigns.com...-squirter.html
Click on the order page to see pics of the units themselves. Sold almost a hundred sets of these thus far, they are popular.
The 928 oiling system is designed to run very high oil pressures. At 7000 rpm, the mains require in the worst case scenario 5.8 bar of oil pressure. That's my estimate, not a fact. It's however based on some actual computations, which take into account the 2.75" main journal diameter and the fact that the stock crankshaft oil drilling intersects the crank centerline. This worst case scenario assumes that the crankshaft surface does no work to accelerate the oil to the main journal surface speed, which makes it the worst case estimate. It is however consistent with the 928 oil pressure relief spring targeting 8.5 bar (that hearsay). So the mains need high oil pressure. It would be my preference to have a piston oil squirter that would start cracking open at 4 bar or above. The other thing is that, by my guesstimates, I don't need any piston oil cooling at low rpms anyway.
I'm concerned about the oil pressure at the mains and piston oil squirters for two reasons. The minor concern is what happens at prolonged idle at stock S4 idle rpm. You mentioned that earlier, and your experiments show it's not a problem for the 911 and its variants. The major concern that I have is that the 928 S4/GT have problem returning oil quickly to the shallow sump, and the oil pickup sucks air semiregularly at high-speed cornering. This is a problem, as the air compresses neatly in the oil pump, and now the oil flow volume is an issue. I don't want the squirters active spraying oil if the oil pressure drops because the pickup sucks air, instead I want whatever oil there is in the mains to go to the rods.
Another question is the required oil flow volume. From cooling perspective, I could use an enormous amount of oil flow. In my opinion, the first constraint is unlikely to be the oil pump flow capacity. Instead, I think it is going to be the oil return from the cylinders to the sump. The piston oil squirter spray is going to be subject to the piston pumping pulses, which try to blow oil into the heads at high rpms. Even assuming that those drains are shielded, there's a possibility that a large quantity of oil is held out of the sump in high-rpm equilibrium. This in turn can lead to all sorts of problems, including the pickup sucking even more air, oil ring and second ring becoming overwhelmed by the oil on the bore walls, and overall oil aeration. If you take the stock 320 hp or about 240 kW engine as the starting point and size the squirters based on Mahle's guidelines of 3kg/kWh for peak power operation, you'll get 240*3/60/0.85/8 = 1.76 L/min (240 kW, 3 kg/h per kW, 60 minutes in an hour, 0.85 specific gravity of oil, and 8 cylinders). Funny how that came out exactly to your squirter's flow rate! (Ford GT by Ford documents sprays 16/8 = 2 l/min per cylinder, Porsche 964 by internet claims of factory manuals 17/6 = 2.83 l/min per cylinder.)
If I size them for triple the cooling need in a turbo engine, it's 5.3 L/min, but how's that going to return to the sump? The good news is that the first kg/h per kW of oil flow is by far the most effective in cooling the piston, so maybe your 1.75 l/min squirters would work for me.
I see you offering three orifice sizes, is that because later engines need more oil flow or because later engines run lower oil pressures? Do you have some rough estimates of how much each orifice size would flow at 928's main journal supply pressures?
Another question is the spray pattern. What kind of spray angle do your squirters produce? I am thinking that given the 928's tendency to have too much oil on the bore walls, especially at high rpms, my guess is that a narrow spray pattern might be better? The usual guidelines is for a wide spray pattern for jet spray cooling and narrow spray pattern for the cooling gallery feeds.
Thanks for the info!
Last edited by ptuomov; 07-08-2018 at 07:41 PM.
07-08-2018, 04:43 PM
#12
Banned
Tuomo,
I am pretty much in the dark as to how these squirters behave in a 928 since all of my data comes from the dry sump 911 motors which are, of course, excellent and scavenging oil. The squirters in a 911 started out being 1.0 mm orifice size then rose to various sizes, 1.5, and finally 2.0 in the 964s, and Turbos. I offer a 2.5mm size because the innards of my squirter are slightly different and I need to size my orifice larger to equal the flow volume of the factory squirter. So my 2.5mm puts out the same volume as a factory 2.0mm, but the factory unit is 1) hard to install unless you know what you are doing 2) not rebuildable and 3) of a fixed orifice size.
Interestingly, on a GT2 each web main has TWO piston squirters of 2.0mm each, so TONS of oil on each cylinder. My case that I make has two squirters per cylinder as well, because you can never really throw too much oil around in a 911 case and have issues like you have in the 928. With an Autoverdi or GT3 style pump you can scavenge all the oil out so its never an issue.
As to spray patterns, it's also an inexact science. The pattern sprays about 20-30 degrees, fairly narrow, but it varies from squirter to squirter. Keep in mind that it is NOTHING like a fuel injector or anything that precise, mainly because the squirter is mere inches from the bottom of the piston and wherever it sprays, the piston get oiled.
Lastly even in factory literature Porsche claimed their stock squirters opened at 3-4 bar, I have NEVER seen them open that late. They dribble and **** up until that, they are never really ever closed just moments after startup. If you saw the internals, there is simply NO WAY that the weak little spring inside a piston squirter - looks like something from a ballpoint pen - could ever hold back 60psi of pressure.
What the factory literature SHOULD say is that the squirters achieve their spray pattern at 3-4 bar, but are open mere instants after startup. They check valves are not strong enough to hold back even 10 psi of air.....
I am pretty much in the dark as to how these squirters behave in a 928 since all of my data comes from the dry sump 911 motors which are, of course, excellent and scavenging oil. The squirters in a 911 started out being 1.0 mm orifice size then rose to various sizes, 1.5, and finally 2.0 in the 964s, and Turbos. I offer a 2.5mm size because the innards of my squirter are slightly different and I need to size my orifice larger to equal the flow volume of the factory squirter. So my 2.5mm puts out the same volume as a factory 2.0mm, but the factory unit is 1) hard to install unless you know what you are doing 2) not rebuildable and 3) of a fixed orifice size.
Interestingly, on a GT2 each web main has TWO piston squirters of 2.0mm each, so TONS of oil on each cylinder. My case that I make has two squirters per cylinder as well, because you can never really throw too much oil around in a 911 case and have issues like you have in the 928. With an Autoverdi or GT3 style pump you can scavenge all the oil out so its never an issue.
As to spray patterns, it's also an inexact science. The pattern sprays about 20-30 degrees, fairly narrow, but it varies from squirter to squirter. Keep in mind that it is NOTHING like a fuel injector or anything that precise, mainly because the squirter is mere inches from the bottom of the piston and wherever it sprays, the piston get oiled.
Lastly even in factory literature Porsche claimed their stock squirters opened at 3-4 bar, I have NEVER seen them open that late. They dribble and **** up until that, they are never really ever closed just moments after startup. If you saw the internals, there is simply NO WAY that the weak little spring inside a piston squirter - looks like something from a ballpoint pen - could ever hold back 60psi of pressure.
What the factory literature SHOULD say is that the squirters achieve their spray pattern at 3-4 bar, but are open mere instants after startup. They check valves are not strong enough to hold back even 10 psi of air.....
07-08-2018, 05:07 PM
#13
Nordschleife Master
Lastly even in factory literature Porsche claimed their stock squirters opened at 3-4 bar, I have NEVER seen them open that late. They dribble and **** up until that, they are never really ever closed just moments after startup. If you saw the internals, there is simply NO WAY that the weak little spring inside a piston squirter - looks like something from a ballpoint pen - could ever hold back 60psi of pressure.
What the factory literature SHOULD say is that the squirters achieve their spray pattern at 3-4 bar, but are open mere instants after startup. They check valves are not strong enough to hold back even 10 psi of air.....
What the factory literature SHOULD say is that the squirters achieve their spray pattern at 3-4 bar, but are open mere instants after startup. They check valves are not strong enough to hold back even 10 psi of air.....
Can you do a stiffer spring in your squirter? I'd like to have a very low flow rate at low supply pressure and a very high flow rate at a high supply pressure (like over 5 bar).
07-08-2018, 07:02 PM
#14
Rennlist Member
Thanks for this conversation , been thinking about this for a while , havent taken the time to do any research , I think the sensible route to any high performance 928 engine for racing would follow what the factory did with 911 s .
Piston squirters make a lot of sense in my opinion , hopefully some more people can chip in here .
Reinterate Tuomov question can a higher spring rate be fitted be fitted to the squirters?
Does anyone have factory one that could the spring tension be measured in its working range for data collection ?
Piston squirters make a lot of sense in my opinion , hopefully some more people can chip in here .
Reinterate Tuomov question can a higher spring rate be fitted be fitted to the squirters?
Does anyone have factory one that could the spring tension be measured in its working range for data collection ?
07-08-2018, 10:53 PM
#15
Banned
John,
I did all the testing possible, but I can't share my data since its proprietary and the rebuildable squirter patent cost me a lot of money. I essentially perfected the factory squirter that somehow Porsche neglected to do in 40 years of research. Sure, you can fit a higher spring rate, but the flow gets strange after a certain point and your quest for zero leakage at idle compromises the full open flow, which is much more important than idle, where you spend mere moments of a drive at. In a race car - forget about it. Delete the check valve altogether.
I did all the testing possible, but I can't share my data since its proprietary and the rebuildable squirter patent cost me a lot of money. I essentially perfected the factory squirter that somehow Porsche neglected to do in 40 years of research. Sure, you can fit a higher spring rate, but the flow gets strange after a certain point and your quest for zero leakage at idle compromises the full open flow, which is much more important than idle, where you spend mere moments of a drive at. In a race car - forget about it. Delete the check valve altogether.