Battery drain and door lock problem
01-14-2006, 05:03 PM
#16
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IIRC later cars allowed you to turn the ignition off and still operate the windows/sunroof until you open a door. It's possible your door switch is inop or otherwise not triggering this circuit, or this circuit is acting up.
01-14-2006, 09:53 PM
#17
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Try changing the X-Relay (in position IV). Its a standard type so swap it with the horn relay (position XII). It could be that the X-Bus is staying active.
What is this ignition relay you speak of... I'm unaware of a relay called 'ignition' - what position is it in...?
Its also possible you have a malfuntioning ignition switch. Does anything else work with the key out and door open - headlights? rear wipers? for example. If its only the windows/sunroof it could also be the window regulator relay (in position VI) - this one is a non-standard relay so harder to swap...
Alan.
What is this ignition relay you speak of... I'm unaware of a relay called 'ignition' - what position is it in...?
Its also possible you have a malfuntioning ignition switch. Does anything else work with the key out and door open - headlights? rear wipers? for example. If its only the windows/sunroof it could also be the window regulator relay (in position VI) - this one is a non-standard relay so harder to swap...
Alan.
01-14-2006, 10:06 PM
#18
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Alan,
This is a Euro, so probably 75% of the relays are the same. The relay used for the window, horn, EZF (ignition), Lh fuel injection, fuel pump, etc. are all the same.On the Euro, the EZF (ignition) is in position VIII.
I will check if any other accessories work off the ignition switch in the morning. Thanks for the help.
Tha car had sat for quite a while before I got it. I was reading some older posts about corrosion on the window module causing a similar drain and it was located under the drivers seat. That was a '90 S4. Is there such a module on this '84 Euro? If so, where?
Thanks
This is a Euro, so probably 75% of the relays are the same. The relay used for the window, horn, EZF (ignition), Lh fuel injection, fuel pump, etc. are all the same.On the Euro, the EZF (ignition) is in position VIII.
I will check if any other accessories work off the ignition switch in the morning. Thanks for the help.
Tha car had sat for quite a while before I got it. I was reading some older posts about corrosion on the window module causing a similar drain and it was located under the drivers seat. That was a '90 S4. Is there such a module on this '84 Euro? If so, where?
Thanks
01-14-2006, 10:31 PM
#19
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I just looked at the wiring diagrams for the Euro and there are 2 window regulators. One is in postition III and the other is the "odd" relay in postition VI. I pulled VI relay and the windows were still working without the key. The windows didi quit working when I pulled relay III. I replaced relay III with a new one, but it did not help. I still have the problem. I am not sure why there are two.
What else?
What else?
01-15-2006, 01:07 PM
#21
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Mike,
. I'm confused... Euro & US cars should have exactly the same relay functions in the same places - really! Some relays are optional or different part numbers between US & Euro - but all the relay locations are the same - they do vary substantially by year though.
It is possible the EZK relay is not a special type - some cars were delivered without the EZK relay with built in fuse tester. Functionally a regular SPST relay will work fine... Position VI should be the only window relay and it should be a special type....
There should be no relay in Position III...
Has someone been messing with this car? are you certain this is all standard as delivered...?
What are these wiring diagrams you are looking at.... make sure you aren't using the wrong thing... get a copy of the factory workshop manual wiring diagrams for your year....
If the real EZK relay is clicking when the ignition is "off" then the ignition is not really off - making the ignition switch suspect...
Alan
. I'm confused... Euro & US cars should have exactly the same relay functions in the same places - really! Some relays are optional or different part numbers between US & Euro - but all the relay locations are the same - they do vary substantially by year though.
It is possible the EZK relay is not a special type - some cars were delivered without the EZK relay with built in fuse tester. Functionally a regular SPST relay will work fine... Position VI should be the only window relay and it should be a special type....
There should be no relay in Position III...
Has someone been messing with this car? are you certain this is all standard as delivered...?
What are these wiring diagrams you are looking at.... make sure you aren't using the wrong thing... get a copy of the factory workshop manual wiring diagrams for your year....
If the real EZK relay is clicking when the ignition is "off" then the ignition is not really off - making the ignition switch suspect...
Alan
01-15-2006, 02:43 PM
#22
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Mike,
I have an 84 US. On mine relay VI sends power to windows. You are saying that your windows work the same with or without your relay VI. Either your circuit board is made much differently than mine or it has been modified in some way. You could have a short which is causing the windows to remain hot or your ignition switch may not be fully functional. On my relay VI socket, term. 30 is always hot and term 87 would only go hot when switched by the relay. I'm guessing yours is hot all the time. That makes me think you have a short behind the circuit board or elsewhere. These can be tedious to trace. They could also cause a current drain.
It's possible that on your Euro, relay III is functioning like my relay VI. If so check voltage at the socket for term. 30 and 87; they should work as I described above. Does term.85 or 86(Iforget which one) go hot when you turn on ignition? If you jumper 30 to 87 do the windows work without relay III in place?
As Alan said, double check your wiring diagrams. I did notice 928SP's relay chart lists window motor relays in both position III and VI so I'm not really sure how yours should work.
HTH
Dave McK.
I have an 84 US. On mine relay VI sends power to windows. You are saying that your windows work the same with or without your relay VI. Either your circuit board is made much differently than mine or it has been modified in some way. You could have a short which is causing the windows to remain hot or your ignition switch may not be fully functional. On my relay VI socket, term. 30 is always hot and term 87 would only go hot when switched by the relay. I'm guessing yours is hot all the time. That makes me think you have a short behind the circuit board or elsewhere. These can be tedious to trace. They could also cause a current drain.
It's possible that on your Euro, relay III is functioning like my relay VI. If so check voltage at the socket for term. 30 and 87; they should work as I described above. Does term.85 or 86(Iforget which one) go hot when you turn on ignition? If you jumper 30 to 87 do the windows work without relay III in place?
As Alan said, double check your wiring diagrams. I did notice 928SP's relay chart lists window motor relays in both position III and VI so I'm not really sure how yours should work.
HTH
Dave McK.
01-15-2006, 03:35 PM
#23
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Thread Starter
Alan,
The relay positions are not the same between the '84 US and the '84 Euro. If you compare the relay positions 83-84 between the US version found on 928 Specialists webiste versus the relay positions for the 84 Euro found on the WSM wiring diagrams, they are completely different.
The relay positions are not the same between the '84 US and the '84 Euro. If you compare the relay positions 83-84 between the US version found on 928 Specialists webiste versus the relay positions for the 84 Euro found on the WSM wiring diagrams, they are completely different.
01-15-2006, 04:18 PM
#25
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Thread Starter
The 928gt site does not have the relay chart for the Euros. You have to go to the WSM wiring diagrams to get this info.
The interior light system is not the problem. It is on a seperate fuse than the window regulators.
Does anyone know where the window module is on these cars? I do not think it is a window switch or motor because both windows are affected.
The interior light system is not the problem. It is on a seperate fuse than the window regulators.
Does anyone know where the window module is on these cars? I do not think it is a window switch or motor because both windows are affected.
01-15-2006, 04:36 PM
#26
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Ahh - sorry I've been looking @ Mikes sig line with the 88 S4 in it.... Mike - sorry - I see its now its for an '84 instead. Ignore the positions etc that I noted (unless you have the same thing on the '88).
The possible issues are the same though... seems likely your ignition is always on... check for that.
Alan
The possible issues are the same though... seems likely your ignition is always on... check for that.
Alan
01-15-2006, 09:00 PM
#27
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My '85 S2 [Euro] operates as follows:
1. You cannot lock the door/turn the lock **** to lock the drivers door unless the door itself is closed. This is so that you won't lock yourself out. This isn't true of the passenger door though. Incidently, t his feature exists on every VW product as well.
2. My windows work after I shut the car off and remove the key. This is so that you can close the car up after shutting off the ignition, and as advertised it works until you open the door. On my car, either door opened releases the holding relay that makes this work. I've never tried the hatch to see if it being opened causes the same thing.
My advice, if you are still seeing a draw and think it is through the central locking is to see the Nichols' site and use the information you glean there to remove your door panels. Once the panels are off, you will see a connector about half way down the door that connects that side's door lock servo to the system. Pull each one and see if you still have a draw- chances are one of your servo's is shorted out.
If you still have a draw after both connectors are pulled, then you've got a ground in one of the wires. If you are great with a multitester and a wiring diagram you can probably figure this one out, but fixing it is another matter. I'd just pull the fuse and open the locks by hand....
Good luck!
N!
1. You cannot lock the door/turn the lock **** to lock the drivers door unless the door itself is closed. This is so that you won't lock yourself out. This isn't true of the passenger door though. Incidently, t his feature exists on every VW product as well.
2. My windows work after I shut the car off and remove the key. This is so that you can close the car up after shutting off the ignition, and as advertised it works until you open the door. On my car, either door opened releases the holding relay that makes this work. I've never tried the hatch to see if it being opened causes the same thing.
My advice, if you are still seeing a draw and think it is through the central locking is to see the Nichols' site and use the information you glean there to remove your door panels. Once the panels are off, you will see a connector about half way down the door that connects that side's door lock servo to the system. Pull each one and see if you still have a draw- chances are one of your servo's is shorted out.
If you still have a draw after both connectors are pulled, then you've got a ground in one of the wires. If you are great with a multitester and a wiring diagram you can probably figure this one out, but fixing it is another matter. I'd just pull the fuse and open the locks by hand....
Good luck!
N!
01-17-2006, 08:03 AM
#28
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Thread Starter
Normy,
There are two window relays on the Euro. Do you know why there are two? Is one of these relays the "holding" relay you spoke about in your post? One relay is the generic one, same as horn, LH, fuel pump, etc. The other is unique. I have tried switching the generic one, but the other I have nothing to swap with. Do you think this relay is bad and is not cutting the current to the windows after the door is open?
Thanks
There are two window relays on the Euro. Do you know why there are two? Is one of these relays the "holding" relay you spoke about in your post? One relay is the generic one, same as horn, LH, fuel pump, etc. The other is unique. I have tried switching the generic one, but the other I have nothing to swap with. Do you think this relay is bad and is not cutting the current to the windows after the door is open?
Thanks
01-18-2006, 12:46 PM
#29
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Mike,
I had a quick peek @ the '84 schematics - what a mess... Ah well - I'm still confused.
Near as I can make out things work differently that I expected... maybe I'm missing something here but it would appear the operation is a little different than the later cars.. please confiirm if you have an unmolested Euro '84...?
It seems the function is:
Windows & Sunroof always work when the doors or hatch are open (!)
Windows & Sunroof work whenever the key is in Accessory or greater position. There appears to be no maintenes operation after key is removed until the doors open (so presumably after you turn off they don't work until you open a door?? - note the door thing is a Euro onlyfeature).
The relay A in position III is a normal standard SPST type
The relay B in Poistion VI is a standard SPDT type (can find easily)
Relay A controls the windows being powered when door is open (not on USA) Relay B controls the X-Bus power and also disables the door
motors when the X-bus is active (key in & accessory+)
If Relay B is always on it implies the relay is stuck on or the X-bus is always on. But if this is true the electric door locks should not work....
Alternatively Relay A could be stuck on or if it thinks the doors are always open it will always be on. Are you sure your locks work correctly and that your interior switched lights (with the doors) work correctly??
If you pulled Relay A you'd only lose the windows powered with locks feature.
As far as I can see for either relay the only power consumed when on would be the coil current - nothing else - this is probably ~200mA. This is enough to flatten the battery - but not quickly.
I must say this was not what I expected - still scratching my head on this one???
Alan
If the interior lights are actually on then you may have more....
I had a quick peek @ the '84 schematics - what a mess... Ah well - I'm still confused.
Near as I can make out things work differently that I expected... maybe I'm missing something here but it would appear the operation is a little different than the later cars.. please confiirm if you have an unmolested Euro '84...?
It seems the function is:
Windows & Sunroof always work when the doors or hatch are open (!)
Windows & Sunroof work whenever the key is in Accessory or greater position. There appears to be no maintenes operation after key is removed until the doors open (so presumably after you turn off they don't work until you open a door?? - note the door thing is a Euro onlyfeature).
The relay A in position III is a normal standard SPST type
The relay B in Poistion VI is a standard SPDT type (can find easily)
Relay A controls the windows being powered when door is open (not on USA) Relay B controls the X-Bus power and also disables the door
motors when the X-bus is active (key in & accessory+)
If Relay B is always on it implies the relay is stuck on or the X-bus is always on. But if this is true the electric door locks should not work....
Alternatively Relay A could be stuck on or if it thinks the doors are always open it will always be on. Are you sure your locks work correctly and that your interior switched lights (with the doors) work correctly??
If you pulled Relay A you'd only lose the windows powered with locks feature.
As far as I can see for either relay the only power consumed when on would be the coil current - nothing else - this is probably ~200mA. This is enough to flatten the battery - but not quickly.
I must say this was not what I expected - still scratching my head on this one???
Alan
If the interior lights are actually on then you may have more....
01-18-2006, 12:47 PM
#30
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Mike,
I had a quick peek @ the '84 schematics - what a mess... Ah well - I'm still confused.
Near as I can make out things work differently that I expected... maybe I'm missing something here but it would appear the operation is a little different than the later cars.. please confiirm if you have an unmolested Euro '84...?
It seems the function is:
Windows & Sunroof always work when the doors or hatch are open (!)
Windows & Sunroof work whenever the key is in Accessory or greater position. There appears to be no maintenes operation after key is removed until the doors open (so presumably after you turn off they don't work until you open a door?? - note the door thing is a Euro onlyfeature).
The relay A in position III is a normal standard SPST type
The relay B in Poistion VI is a standard SPDT type (can find easily)
Relay A controls the windows being powered when door is open (not on USA) Relay B controls the X-Bus power and also disables the door
motors when the X-bus is active (key in & accessory+)
If Relay B is always on it implies the relay is stuck on or the X-bus is always on. But if this is true the electric door locks should not work....
Alternatively Relay A could be stuck on or if it thinks the doors are always open it will always be on. Are you sure your locks work correctly and that your interior switched lights (with the doors) work correctly??
If you pulled Relay A you'd only lose the windows powered with locks feature.
As far as I can see for either relay the only power consumed when on would be the coil current - nothing else - this is probably ~200mA. This is enough to flatten the battery - but not quickly.
I must say this was not what I expected - still scratching my head on this one???
Alan
PS Mike - thanks for updating the sig line in case I forget again...
If the interior lights are actually on then you may have more....
I had a quick peek @ the '84 schematics - what a mess... Ah well - I'm still confused.
Near as I can make out things work differently that I expected... maybe I'm missing something here but it would appear the operation is a little different than the later cars.. please confiirm if you have an unmolested Euro '84...?
It seems the function is:
Windows & Sunroof always work when the doors or hatch are open (!)
Windows & Sunroof work whenever the key is in Accessory or greater position. There appears to be no maintenes operation after key is removed until the doors open (so presumably after you turn off they don't work until you open a door?? - note the door thing is a Euro onlyfeature).
The relay A in position III is a normal standard SPST type
The relay B in Poistion VI is a standard SPDT type (can find easily)
Relay A controls the windows being powered when door is open (not on USA) Relay B controls the X-Bus power and also disables the door
motors when the X-bus is active (key in & accessory+)
If Relay B is always on it implies the relay is stuck on or the X-bus is always on. But if this is true the electric door locks should not work....
Alternatively Relay A could be stuck on or if it thinks the doors are always open it will always be on. Are you sure your locks work correctly and that your interior switched lights (with the doors) work correctly??
If you pulled Relay A you'd only lose the windows powered with locks feature.
As far as I can see for either relay the only power consumed when on would be the coil current - nothing else - this is probably ~200mA. This is enough to flatten the battery - but not quickly.
I must say this was not what I expected - still scratching my head on this one???
Alan
PS Mike - thanks for updating the sig line in case I forget again...
If the interior lights are actually on then you may have more....