Dynamic kickdown conversion and powdercoating project finished
11-23-2007, 10:45 AM
#31
Electron Wrangler
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Mike - I think you will be able to tell pretty easily - Schocki can explain in more detail... but basically for a quick step on the gas (by no means all the way) you will be able to provoke a downshift.
Schocki - some seem to think 100% 1st gear starts are a great idea - of course here it's still contingent on (dynamic) kickdown activation. However it seems there are other considerations in actually getting 1st gear starts (valve body, bowden cable adjustment).
I do agree that being in this mode constantly you would be getting probably lots of undesireable engine braking due to (early) downshifts - during coasting down...
However I don't think that would apply here since it would only be activated in normal kick-down & dynamic-kickdown - not on decelleration? (except within ~8 sec of dynamic activation)
A gear selector push to launch in 1st button (a la jager) - for on demand 1st starts would seem a reasonable control option here (for the boy racers only of course...)
Alan
Schocki - some seem to think 100% 1st gear starts are a great idea - of course here it's still contingent on (dynamic) kickdown activation. However it seems there are other considerations in actually getting 1st gear starts (valve body, bowden cable adjustment).
I do agree that being in this mode constantly you would be getting probably lots of undesireable engine braking due to (early) downshifts - during coasting down...
However I don't think that would apply here since it would only be activated in normal kick-down & dynamic-kickdown - not on decelleration? (except within ~8 sec of dynamic activation)
A gear selector push to launch in 1st button (a la jager) - for on demand 1st starts would seem a reasonable control option here (for the boy racers only of course...)
Alan
11-23-2007, 05:26 PM
#32
Rennlist Member
Alan,
Should I go ahead and look into getting the kickdown relay and the throttle switch, or is there still more investigating to be done. I have some time, since I am going the back end of my car first.
Please let me know.
Should I go ahead and look into getting the kickdown relay and the throttle switch, or is there still more investigating to be done. I have some time, since I am going the back end of my car first.
Please let me know.
11-23-2007, 06:51 PM
#33
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I have a pretty good kickdown switch......my clutch pedal (just kidding).
very nice job on the intake and valve covers (haven't seen textured powdercoating on 928 engine parts until this).
that's really RED.
---Russ
very nice job on the intake and valve covers (haven't seen textured powdercoating on 928 engine parts until this).
that's really RED.
---Russ
11-24-2007, 01:55 AM
#34
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Mike - Go ahead - I'm almost certain we can make this work - just like Schocki's. Can you take some photo's of it for me as you go....?
Schocki - can you send Mike your document on the project details..
Alan
Schocki - can you send Mike your document on the project details..
Alan
Last edited by Alan; 11-24-2007 at 05:16 PM.
11-24-2007, 03:44 AM
#35
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Email send to Mike that I need his address...
Hope this will work for you guys.
Alan - I will be in Tempe for christmas this year. Maybe we can arrange to get together for a couple of hours...
Hope this will work for you guys.
Alan - I will be in Tempe for christmas this year. Maybe we can arrange to get together for a couple of hours...
11-24-2007, 05:43 PM
#36
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Schocki - Yes! - we should plan a get togther if you are here.. maybe gather a few of the locals too...
Assume you will be here with the whole family? - you are very welcome to all come to us for a visit...
Alan
Assume you will be here with the whole family? - you are very welcome to all come to us for a visit...
Alan
11-25-2007, 12:50 AM
#37
Drifting
Was thinking...... If someone like 69gaugeman could come up with a re-programmable kickdown relay that would be a great product ... one with features something like this:
High voltage programmable microcontroller based replacement kickdown relay, reprogrammable by a 4 bit dip switch (0000-1111 bin or 0-15 dec)
-programmable throttle rate sensitivity
-programmable minimum activation speed
-programmable first gear starts (on-off)
High voltage programmable microcontroller based replacement kickdown relay, reprogrammable by a 4 bit dip switch (0000-1111 bin or 0-15 dec)
-programmable throttle rate sensitivity
-programmable minimum activation speed
-programmable first gear starts (on-off)
11-29-2008, 12:46 PM
#39
Racer
Hmmm... I like the idea of putting in a PIC microcontroller (like a 16F88 or so) and programming it so that you can modify the response based on the input rpm, sort of making a non-linear rpm resonse.
Anyone ever been on that road?
regards
Anyone ever been on that road?
regards
11-30-2008, 07:01 PM
#40
Drifting
Theo,
Take a look at this.... the inside of the GTS Dynamic Kickdown relay. Notice the PIC microcontroller.
Here's some info on another thread...
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...kickdown+relay
Take a look at this.... the inside of the GTS Dynamic Kickdown relay. Notice the PIC microcontroller.
Here's some info on another thread...
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...kickdown+relay
Last edited by borland; 11-30-2008 at 10:47 PM.
12-01-2008, 12:21 PM
#42
The dynamic kickdown via TPS input and the way it works makes the most sense. The kickdown button under the accel pedal is soooo anachronistically typical of some of the engineering in the older MYs.
In the 86.5, the kickdown solenoid takes a little over 1 amp by my measurements. Upside of the accel pedal button kickdown is the simplicity of installing the auxiliary kickdown button on the dead pedal. The aux pedal button does allow getting power more efficiently than via the accel pedal button..., but not near as effective as the mod in Schocki's thread.
In the 86.5, the kickdown solenoid takes a little over 1 amp by my measurements. Upside of the accel pedal button kickdown is the simplicity of installing the auxiliary kickdown button on the dead pedal. The aux pedal button does allow getting power more efficiently than via the accel pedal button..., but not near as effective as the mod in Schocki's thread.
10-02-2010, 09:41 PM
#43
Addict
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(Edit: I had the wrong relay!) Trouble with this mod; bad part number or wrong part?
Here's the additional electrical parts to order:
From Porsche:
1 – P/N: 999.652.456.22, contact spring 0.75-1.5, $1.25
1 – P/N: 999.652.451.22, fitting piece 6.3/0.5-1.0, $1.50
1 – P/N: 999.652.106.02, flat receptacle 6.3x1.5 w/o clip, $1.50
And here's the rest of the procedure:
E. Central Electric (CE) Panel Rewiring
The GTS kickdown relay has one additional pin, so the last step is to install the unfilled terminal in the relay socket XVII (1990-1993 cars, while relay XV for 1989 cars), and from the backside, electrically connect it to the “V” connector, unfilled pin 22, and connect the kickdown wire to the “V” harness plug.
Disconnect the car battery at the ground strap.
Remove the old kickdown relay from the socket XVII. Remove the two top mounting screws securing the CE panel.
Remove both the EZK and LH controllers from mounting. This allows laying the CE panel face down.
Make up a wire jumper using two female terminals (p/n’s 999.652.106.02 & 999.652.456.22) about 9 inches in length for 1990+ cars.
The relay socket has a latch feature which both secures the socket to the electric panel and retains the terminals locked in the socket. You must unlatch the top bezel from the relay socket body before inserting the new terminal.
These links are for photos that show the unlatched and latched positions of the relay socket.
Unlatched position:
http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/8...cket006tm5.jpg
Latched position:
http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/7...cket007bw8.jpg
Do this un-latch by inserting a small jeweler’s flat blade screwdriver from behind the socket, on each side. Insert the jumper terminal until the metal clip snaps in place. Then re-latch the relay socket.
Connect the other end of the jumper to the “V” connector, unfilled pin 22. This is for 1990 thru 1993 cars. Note: 1989 year cars will be wired differently, so check the WSM wiring diagrams for other possible unfilled connector locations.
Reinstalled the panel and the new GTS kickdown relay.
[...]
From Porsche:
1 – P/N: 999.652.456.22, contact spring 0.75-1.5, $1.25
1 – P/N: 999.652.451.22, fitting piece 6.3/0.5-1.0, $1.50
1 – P/N: 999.652.106.02, flat receptacle 6.3x1.5 w/o clip, $1.50
And here's the rest of the procedure:
E. Central Electric (CE) Panel Rewiring
The GTS kickdown relay has one additional pin, so the last step is to install the unfilled terminal in the relay socket XVII (1990-1993 cars, while relay XV for 1989 cars), and from the backside, electrically connect it to the “V” connector, unfilled pin 22, and connect the kickdown wire to the “V” harness plug.
Disconnect the car battery at the ground strap.
Remove the old kickdown relay from the socket XVII. Remove the two top mounting screws securing the CE panel.
Remove both the EZK and LH controllers from mounting. This allows laying the CE panel face down.
Make up a wire jumper using two female terminals (p/n’s 999.652.106.02 & 999.652.456.22) about 9 inches in length for 1990+ cars.
The relay socket has a latch feature which both secures the socket to the electric panel and retains the terminals locked in the socket. You must unlatch the top bezel from the relay socket body before inserting the new terminal.
These links are for photos that show the unlatched and latched positions of the relay socket.
Unlatched position:
http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/8...cket006tm5.jpg
Latched position:
http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/7...cket007bw8.jpg
Do this un-latch by inserting a small jeweler’s flat blade screwdriver from behind the socket, on each side. Insert the jumper terminal until the metal clip snaps in place. Then re-latch the relay socket.
Connect the other end of the jumper to the “V” connector, unfilled pin 22. This is for 1990 thru 1993 cars. Note: 1989 year cars will be wired differently, so check the WSM wiring diagrams for other possible unfilled connector locations.
Reinstalled the panel and the new GTS kickdown relay.
[...]
Original post follows:
OK, I've spent a good part of the day doing this mod, and I just about got done except I can't get the "999.652.456.22, contact spring" on the back of the relay socket to stay put and I'm starting to suspect that this is either the wrong part number or I was shipped the wrong part. The contact spring (that I got in the bag marked 999.652.456.22) is a narrow one that looks like it belongs in a narrow relay pin slot, but the extra contact on the GTS relay is a wide one, not a narrow one.
Latching/unlatching the socket isn't exactly trivial, either. I wouldn't mind having the correct tool for that.
Something is wrong here.
Here's one of Schocki's photos; look at the relay socket on the right (that's the kind that my '90 S4 has). Note that the wide socket slots have "contact springs" that are the full width of the slot, and the narrow slots (the corner ones) have small contact springs. And the GTS kickdown relay's extra contact is one of the wide ones, yet the "contact spring 999.652.456.22" that I got is a small one (just like the corner ones in the photo) that just doesn't seem right for a wide slot.
Last edited by Ed Scherer; 10-02-2010 at 11:04 PM.
10-02-2010, 10:31 PM
#45
Drifting
I think you have the right parts. I identified the part numbers from the PET for the 944 (illustration 902-52) because the 928 PET lacks any details in this project.
The new GTS kickdown relay provides a new pin P, which is also identified on the 94 GTS wiring diagrams. All other kickdown relay pins are the same as on your 90' S4 kickdown relay.
You will be adding the new contact spring to an empty slot in your existing kickdown relay socket in your CE panel. So, I don't understand why Schocki shows those relays in his writeup?
The empty relay socket contact assignment slot for relay pin P is not identified in the wiring diagrams, so you'll need to use the new relay to identify the relay socket's slot assignment number. Sorry I didn't provide more clarification in this area, hope you can amplify when you get done with the mod.
The new GTS kickdown relay provides a new pin P, which is also identified on the 94 GTS wiring diagrams. All other kickdown relay pins are the same as on your 90' S4 kickdown relay.
You will be adding the new contact spring to an empty slot in your existing kickdown relay socket in your CE panel. So, I don't understand why Schocki shows those relays in his writeup?
The empty relay socket contact assignment slot for relay pin P is not identified in the wiring diagrams, so you'll need to use the new relay to identify the relay socket's slot assignment number. Sorry I didn't provide more clarification in this area, hope you can amplify when you get done with the mod.