928 a track car? Comments PLS
12-14-2005, 04:17 AM
#31
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Wilbraham, MA
Posts: 2,758
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Heinrich,
PCA generally uses factory numbers, early Euro S at 300 and later at 310. You must recognize that classing them with US 928s of the same year would be unfair to the US 928s, right?
PCA generally uses factory numbers, early Euro S at 300 and later at 310. You must recognize that classing them with US 928s of the same year would be unfair to the US 928s, right?
12-14-2005, 06:23 AM
#32
Nordschleife Master
For me being relatively new into club racing - I can tell you a little bit about my experience with my two S2"s.
My 84 was interior complete - 4spd auto - headers, mechanical fan delete and bilsteins. In the advance street car group with ASA/Pro Auto racing she was getting smoked by "lesser" cars and she was a pig going into corners - even with the bilsteins. BUT at the same time she did very well (considering most of the tracks are 1-1.5 miles) for what she was.
When I blew the head gaskets on the 84 I bought another S2 but an 85. I swapped all the parts from the 84 onto the 85 - stripped her down to bones - bolted in a Evo seat - deleted the cats and went racing. (Plus tire...etc ..) I guess shes down to about 2600-2700 Lbs - and the reduction of weight is the most important mod I could have done.
Put it this way - In my last event the ASCG (advance Street car group) I ran against a few non stock Z06's - 2002/2003 - (mainly seats and exhaust, tires) and my 85 did very well considering. What I mean by very well ......... for those of you who know Firebird - on the straight on Firebird main from turn 12 to turn 1 ......It took one ZO6 the entire straight, and I do mean entire straight - down to the apex for turn 1, to get around me (roughly 5/8 mile may be a little longer). (Yes my 85 is an auto) Of course driver skill plays into part but the ASCG predominantly runs big bore (anything over 3.0L) motors. These drivers are usually trying get into the race class also known as the blue group.
In my opnion - the S2 motor is the best bang for the buck at track - for those who want to race semi-pro -
I wonder what the owner of the Z06 thought when he had a hard time getting around me in my 20 year old - UNDER - 12K - first time race car - compard to his ????? Z06.
I havent raced PCA and or POC - probably wont for another year or two and who knows I may never.
The facts are the S2 and later sharks make good track candidates and I absolutley dont regret it for one minute.
Gotto Love it.
Firebird Coursee AKA the Main
http://www.firebirdraceway.com/5.5we...ebirdtrack.htm
My 84 was interior complete - 4spd auto - headers, mechanical fan delete and bilsteins. In the advance street car group with ASA/Pro Auto racing she was getting smoked by "lesser" cars and she was a pig going into corners - even with the bilsteins. BUT at the same time she did very well (considering most of the tracks are 1-1.5 miles) for what she was.
When I blew the head gaskets on the 84 I bought another S2 but an 85. I swapped all the parts from the 84 onto the 85 - stripped her down to bones - bolted in a Evo seat - deleted the cats and went racing. (Plus tire...etc ..) I guess shes down to about 2600-2700 Lbs - and the reduction of weight is the most important mod I could have done.
Put it this way - In my last event the ASCG (advance Street car group) I ran against a few non stock Z06's - 2002/2003 - (mainly seats and exhaust, tires) and my 85 did very well considering. What I mean by very well ......... for those of you who know Firebird - on the straight on Firebird main from turn 12 to turn 1 ......It took one ZO6 the entire straight, and I do mean entire straight - down to the apex for turn 1, to get around me (roughly 5/8 mile may be a little longer). (Yes my 85 is an auto) Of course driver skill plays into part but the ASCG predominantly runs big bore (anything over 3.0L) motors. These drivers are usually trying get into the race class also known as the blue group.
In my opnion - the S2 motor is the best bang for the buck at track - for those who want to race semi-pro -
I wonder what the owner of the Z06 thought when he had a hard time getting around me in my 20 year old - UNDER - 12K - first time race car - compard to his ????? Z06.
I havent raced PCA and or POC - probably wont for another year or two and who knows I may never.
The facts are the S2 and later sharks make good track candidates and I absolutley dont regret it for one minute.
Gotto Love it.
Firebird Coursee AKA the Main
http://www.firebirdraceway.com/5.5we...ebirdtrack.htm
12-14-2005, 07:57 AM
#33
Former Vendor
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,139
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'll jump in here even though I'm not a racer yet, just a PCA DE guy with a few years under my tires. I have a 1986.5 928S AT (yes AT) that I bought with some track mods already done, then spent almost a year stripping it down to about 2900 lbs and adding a few more mods to include a accusump and a custom 3.5" SS exhaust. It came with a custom cage, track seats, and a double adjustable JRZ suspension. Truthfully I still have not learned how to maximize the suspension yet. It's reset to the beginning adjustments and has been woring fine so far.
I was tentative when I first showed up at the track, since I was brain washed about how much more agile and lighter the 911s were and so on. Then when I started to go through the different levels of PCA DE to Solo driver I was finding the car was impressive to not only myself but to the instructors who had been at this game for many years. I got one instructor motion sick due to the brutal acceleration/braking forces/side loads and one instructor who was a racer and a 944T owner spun my car off track since I believe he did not take my car seriously and was not use to the torque our engines have. I was keeping up with and passing 911s/993s/996s with many upgrades ($$$) done to them, and I was started to be waved by when others saw me in their rear view mirrors. And I'm not that good of a driver yet.
But I have been served some humble pie too, being eaten alive by modded Mustangs, Vettes, well driven 996s and Boxsters, race 911s and so on. Driver skill is very important in this game as is learning your car. The results that Mark A., Joe Fan, Mark K., and John Veninger have comes down to driver skill and knowing their cars in my opinion. I know others have done very well too.
For those of you who did not know, John Veninger placed third in the GT2S sprint race at the PCA 48 Hours of Sebring races in Feb, 2005. This was the first ever 928 podium finish in the history of these races. If you saw his mouse motored 928S from about 20 feet you would have thought it was a stock 928. No fancy spoilers just the S spoilers and no big mods. His competition was very pro looking with 993 cup cars and some 996s in the mix.
I personally have found that one of the biggest single improvement that I made was to decrease the weight of the car. I run the stock S4 brakes which are very impressive and never had a fade problem, even at Serbing when I've hit 130+ on the back straight. The 928 is inherently well balanced and it's fun to have a front row seat watching 911s with race mods sliding and squealing along trying to keep you behind and your just waiting for the wave by since your car is not even close to braking tires yet.
PCA DE days are a safe way to enjoy your 928 at speed and make believe your racing. It will open your eyes to how good the 928 really is. My only wish was that Porsche would have actually raced the 928 to have given it a much needed race pedigree which it does not have.
Cheers,
Constantine
I was tentative when I first showed up at the track, since I was brain washed about how much more agile and lighter the 911s were and so on. Then when I started to go through the different levels of PCA DE to Solo driver I was finding the car was impressive to not only myself but to the instructors who had been at this game for many years. I got one instructor motion sick due to the brutal acceleration/braking forces/side loads and one instructor who was a racer and a 944T owner spun my car off track since I believe he did not take my car seriously and was not use to the torque our engines have. I was keeping up with and passing 911s/993s/996s with many upgrades ($$$) done to them, and I was started to be waved by when others saw me in their rear view mirrors. And I'm not that good of a driver yet.
But I have been served some humble pie too, being eaten alive by modded Mustangs, Vettes, well driven 996s and Boxsters, race 911s and so on. Driver skill is very important in this game as is learning your car. The results that Mark A., Joe Fan, Mark K., and John Veninger have comes down to driver skill and knowing their cars in my opinion. I know others have done very well too.
For those of you who did not know, John Veninger placed third in the GT2S sprint race at the PCA 48 Hours of Sebring races in Feb, 2005. This was the first ever 928 podium finish in the history of these races. If you saw his mouse motored 928S from about 20 feet you would have thought it was a stock 928. No fancy spoilers just the S spoilers and no big mods. His competition was very pro looking with 993 cup cars and some 996s in the mix.
I personally have found that one of the biggest single improvement that I made was to decrease the weight of the car. I run the stock S4 brakes which are very impressive and never had a fade problem, even at Serbing when I've hit 130+ on the back straight. The 928 is inherently well balanced and it's fun to have a front row seat watching 911s with race mods sliding and squealing along trying to keep you behind and your just waiting for the wave by since your car is not even close to braking tires yet.
PCA DE days are a safe way to enjoy your 928 at speed and make believe your racing. It will open your eyes to how good the 928 really is. My only wish was that Porsche would have actually raced the 928 to have given it a much needed race pedigree which it does not have.
Cheers,
Constantine
12-14-2005, 08:26 AM
#34
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Wilbraham, MA
Posts: 2,758
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A side note for anyone looking. I do have a complete '79 928 non-sunroof 5 speed US that doesn't run. It would make a good track car base for someone, as the interior is in rough shape I would take $750 for it.
12-14-2005, 09:13 AM
#35
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Drop my motor that is for sale into Stans car, add some race seats and your on the track for less than $6K with a good base to upgrade!!!
Thanks for the nice compliment Constantine.
Thanks for the nice compliment Constantine.
12-14-2005, 09:55 AM
#38
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Mountains of GA!
Posts: 3,537
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by heinrich
More please. I didn't know a EURO would bump your class???? Weird.
USA 928 is in BS (B-Stock).....EURO is in BSP (B Street Prep)
12-14-2005, 10:34 AM
#39
928 Collector
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Stan.Shaw@Excell.Net
Heinrich,
PCA generally uses factory numbers, early Euro S at 300 and later at 310. You must recognize that classing them with US 928s of the same year would be unfair to the US 928s, right?
PCA generally uses factory numbers, early Euro S at 300 and later at 310. You must recognize that classing them with US 928s of the same year would be unfair to the US 928s, right?
12-14-2005, 10:42 AM
#40
928 Collector
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
A great perspective, Constantine thanks for that 
..... I hadn't realised that about JV ... congratulations John 
..... I hadn't realised that about JV ... congratulations John
Originally Posted by Constantine
I'll jump in here even though I'm not a racer yet, just a PCA DE guy with a few years under my tires. I have a 1986.5 928S AT (yes AT) that I bought with some track mods already done, then spent almost a year stripping it down to about 2900 lbs and adding a few more mods to include a accusump and a custom 3.5" SS exhaust. It came with a custom cage, track seats, and a double adjustable JRZ suspension. Truthfully I still have not learned how to maximize the suspension yet. It's reset to the beginning adjustments and has been woring fine so far.
I was tentative when I first showed up at the track, since I was brain washed about how much more agile and lighter the 911s were and so on. Then when I started to go through the different levels of PCA DE to Solo driver I was finding the car was impressive to not only myself but to the instructors who had been at this game for many years. I got one instructor motion sick due to the brutal acceleration/braking forces/side loads and one instructor who was a racer and a 944T owner spun my car off track since I believe he did not take my car seriously and was not use to the torque our engines have. I was keeping up with and passing 911s/993s/996s with many upgrades ($$$) done to them, and I was started to be waved by when others saw me in their rear view mirrors. And I'm not that good of a driver yet.
But I have been served some humble pie too, being eaten alive by modded Mustangs, Vettes, well driven 996s and Boxsters, race 911s and so on. Driver skill is very important in this game as is learning your car. The results that Mark A., Joe Fan, Mark K., and John Veninger have comes down to driver skill and knowing their cars in my opinion. I know others have done very well too.
For those of you who did not know, John Veninger placed third in the GT2S sprint race at the PCA 48 Hours of Sebring races in Feb, 2005. This was the first ever 928 podium finish in the history of these races. If you saw his mouse motored 928S from about 20 feet you would have thought it was a stock 928. No fancy spoilers just the S spoilers and no big mods. His competition was very pro looking with 993 cup cars and some 996s in the mix.
I personally have found that one of the biggest single improvement that I made was to decrease the weight of the car. I run the stock S4 brakes which are very impressive and never had a fade problem, even at Serbing when I've hit 130+ on the back straight. The 928 is inherently well balanced and it's fun to have a front row seat watching 911s with race mods sliding and squealing along trying to keep you behind and your just waiting for the wave by since your car is not even close to braking tires yet.
PCA DE days are a safe way to enjoy your 928 at speed and make believe your racing. It will open your eyes to how good the 928 really is. My only wish was that Porsche would have actually raced the 928 to have given it a much needed race pedigree which it does not have.
Cheers,
Constantine
I was tentative when I first showed up at the track, since I was brain washed about how much more agile and lighter the 911s were and so on. Then when I started to go through the different levels of PCA DE to Solo driver I was finding the car was impressive to not only myself but to the instructors who had been at this game for many years. I got one instructor motion sick due to the brutal acceleration/braking forces/side loads and one instructor who was a racer and a 944T owner spun my car off track since I believe he did not take my car seriously and was not use to the torque our engines have. I was keeping up with and passing 911s/993s/996s with many upgrades ($$$) done to them, and I was started to be waved by when others saw me in their rear view mirrors. And I'm not that good of a driver yet.
But I have been served some humble pie too, being eaten alive by modded Mustangs, Vettes, well driven 996s and Boxsters, race 911s and so on. Driver skill is very important in this game as is learning your car. The results that Mark A., Joe Fan, Mark K., and John Veninger have comes down to driver skill and knowing their cars in my opinion. I know others have done very well too.
For those of you who did not know, John Veninger placed third in the GT2S sprint race at the PCA 48 Hours of Sebring races in Feb, 2005. This was the first ever 928 podium finish in the history of these races. If you saw his mouse motored 928S from about 20 feet you would have thought it was a stock 928. No fancy spoilers just the S spoilers and no big mods. His competition was very pro looking with 993 cup cars and some 996s in the mix.
I personally have found that one of the biggest single improvement that I made was to decrease the weight of the car. I run the stock S4 brakes which are very impressive and never had a fade problem, even at Serbing when I've hit 130+ on the back straight. The 928 is inherently well balanced and it's fun to have a front row seat watching 911s with race mods sliding and squealing along trying to keep you behind and your just waiting for the wave by since your car is not even close to braking tires yet.
PCA DE days are a safe way to enjoy your 928 at speed and make believe your racing. It will open your eyes to how good the 928 really is. My only wish was that Porsche would have actually raced the 928 to have given it a much needed race pedigree which it does not have.
Cheers,
Constantine
12-14-2005, 10:48 AM
#41
928 Collector
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Drew, Z06's?? pretty impressive. I think many 928 owners are looking to guys like you and Constantine as to how to get into racing, get a start.
I also think we're going to see more 928's on tracks because of the unbeatale value as well as the visibility guys like you and Constantine are giving the car .... on the other side of the spectrum, a podium by our der Mr Veninger would be sureto give pause to some who thought their Vettes were all tht. I saw an '83 racecar the other night locally, incredibly well-done. He's lost the kind of weight you guys are talking about and the car really isn't even the same car anymore, once you look inside. I dothink the 928 is a versatile, viable option for someone wanting to get into club racing or other inexpensive track fun. All it takes is a bit of elbow grease.
I also think we're going to see more 928's on tracks because of the unbeatale value as well as the visibility guys like you and Constantine are giving the car .... on the other side of the spectrum, a podium by our der Mr Veninger would be sureto give pause to some who thought their Vettes were all tht
. I saw an '83 racecar the other night locally, incredibly well-done. He's lost the kind of weight you guys are talking about and the car really isn't even the same car anymore, once you look inside. I dothink the 928 is a versatile, viable option for someone wanting to get into club racing or other inexpensive track fun. All it takes is a bit of elbow grease.
Originally Posted by Drewster67
For me being relatively new into club racing - I can tell you a little bit about my experience with my two S2"s.
My 84 was interior complete - 4spd auto - headers, mechanical fan delete and bilsteins. In the advance street car group with ASA/Pro Auto racing she was getting smoked by "lesser" cars and she was a pig going into corners - even with the bilsteins. BUT at the same time she did very well (considering most of the tracks are 1-1.5 miles) for what she was.
When I blew the head gaskets on the 84 I bought another S2 but an 85. I swapped all the parts from the 84 onto the 85 - stripped her down to bones - bolted in a Evo seat - deleted the cats and went racing. (Plus tire...etc ..) I guess shes down to about 2600-2700 Lbs - and the reduction of weight is the most important mod I could have done.
Put it this way - In my last event the ASCG (advance Street car group) I ran against a few non stock Z06's - 2002/2003 - (mainly seats and exhaust, tires) and my 85 did very well considering. What I mean by very well ......... for those of you who know Firebird - on the straight on Firebird main from turn 12 to turn 1 ......It took one ZO6 the entire straight, and I do mean entire straight - down to the apex for turn 1, to get around me (roughly 5/8 mile may be a little longer). (Yes my 85 is an auto) Of course driver skill plays into part but the ASCG predominantly runs big bore (anything over 3.0L) motors. These drivers are usually trying get into the race class also known as the blue group.
In my opnion - the S2 motor is the best bang for the buck at track - for those who want to race semi-pro -
I wonder what the owner of the Z06 thought when he had a hard time getting around me in my 20 year old - UNDER - 12K - first time race car - compard to his ????? Z06.
I havent raced PCA and or POC - probably wont for another year or two and who knows I may never.
The facts are the S2 and later sharks make good track candidates and I absolutley dont regret it for one minute.
Gotto Love it.
Firebird Coursee AKA the Main
http://www.firebirdraceway.com/5.5we...ebirdtrack.htm
My 84 was interior complete - 4spd auto - headers, mechanical fan delete and bilsteins. In the advance street car group with ASA/Pro Auto racing she was getting smoked by "lesser" cars and she was a pig going into corners - even with the bilsteins. BUT at the same time she did very well (considering most of the tracks are 1-1.5 miles) for what she was.
When I blew the head gaskets on the 84 I bought another S2 but an 85. I swapped all the parts from the 84 onto the 85 - stripped her down to bones - bolted in a Evo seat - deleted the cats and went racing. (Plus tire...etc ..) I guess shes down to about 2600-2700 Lbs - and the reduction of weight is the most important mod I could have done.
Put it this way - In my last event the ASCG (advance Street car group) I ran against a few non stock Z06's - 2002/2003 - (mainly seats and exhaust, tires) and my 85 did very well considering. What I mean by very well ......... for those of you who know Firebird - on the straight on Firebird main from turn 12 to turn 1 ......It took one ZO6 the entire straight, and I do mean entire straight - down to the apex for turn 1, to get around me (roughly 5/8 mile may be a little longer). (Yes my 85 is an auto) Of course driver skill plays into part but the ASCG predominantly runs big bore (anything over 3.0L) motors. These drivers are usually trying get into the race class also known as the blue group.
In my opnion - the S2 motor is the best bang for the buck at track - for those who want to race semi-pro -
I wonder what the owner of the Z06 thought when he had a hard time getting around me in my 20 year old - UNDER - 12K - first time race car - compard to his ????? Z06.
I havent raced PCA and or POC - probably wont for another year or two and who knows I may never.
The facts are the S2 and later sharks make good track candidates and I absolutley dont regret it for one minute.
Gotto Love it.
Firebird Coursee AKA the Main
http://www.firebirdraceway.com/5.5we...ebirdtrack.htm
12-14-2005, 11:36 AM
#42
Nordschleife Master
Fortunate
I was really fortunate.
4 years ago - a coworker of mine mentioned to me that he volunteered with ASA/Pro Auto as course official - mainly being a corner flag person. He said come on out - volunteer your time - and run the track for free. Free track time ...you bet!
Since then - I am now the Timing and Scoring manager running Kronos Vrs 2.0.
Im the guy sitting in the air conditioned trailer making sure all race group transponders are assigned and hitting correctly. A major pain in the *** but well worth it for the seat time and track exposure. I even got Rich9928p out there to assist me .....although we havent ran against each other ........yet ;-)
Hopefully soon (2 years or less) - I wont be working but racing in a pro race series (ASA/Pro Auto Sports) - Thats my goal - Aim High and you wont fall short!
Please visit http://www.asa-racing.com/
The picture below is of Vicky and Larry Pond - "My second family" owners of Pro Auto Sports.
4 years ago - a coworker of mine mentioned to me that he volunteered with ASA/Pro Auto as course official - mainly being a corner flag person. He said come on out - volunteer your time - and run the track for free. Free track time ...you bet!
Since then - I am now the Timing and Scoring manager running Kronos Vrs 2.0.
Im the guy sitting in the air conditioned trailer making sure all race group transponders are assigned and hitting correctly. A major pain in the *** but well worth it for the seat time and track exposure. I even got Rich9928p out there to assist me .....although we havent ran against each other ........yet ;-)
Hopefully soon (2 years or less) - I wont be working but racing in a pro race series (ASA/Pro Auto Sports) - Thats my goal - Aim High and you wont fall short!
Please visit http://www.asa-racing.com/
The picture below is of Vicky and Larry Pond - "My second family" owners of Pro Auto Sports.
Last edited by Drewster67; 12-30-2012 at 11:15 AM.
12-14-2005, 01:41 PM
#43
Rennlist Member
the problem , and its a big problem, is that PCA (which has really limited racing experience compared to the very old SCCA and other racing organizations) has not fully understood, the " power" of absolute weight. sure hp to weigtht is important (to only 1/3 of the major performance equation) but what about braking and cornering (the other 2/3s).
so, two cars, classed the same HP to weight, if one weighs 700lbs less than the other (thats like 70hp in our weight range as far as effects on handlng and braking), who do you think is going to win a contest. (ie 928 vs 911 both 84 year. one 3350lbs, the other 2600lbs) and other advantages could be made up by tire size, etc, but guess what, they both start out with the same wheels sizes!
anyway, the NASA GTS Challenge series (german touring sportscar challenge) has addresssed the HP to weight ratio for the race cars, by using dyno sheets, and are hopefully going to take my advice and use a hp point somewhere below max Hp to help cars with a less advantageous curve shape. (rather than their current plan to average in max torque ...... bad bad , stupid stupid!)
the racing game!!
MK
so, two cars, classed the same HP to weight, if one weighs 700lbs less than the other (thats like 70hp in our weight range as far as effects on handlng and braking), who do you think is going to win a contest. (ie 928 vs 911 both 84 year. one 3350lbs, the other 2600lbs) and other advantages could be made up by tire size, etc, but guess what, they both start out with the same wheels sizes!
anyway, the NASA GTS Challenge series (german touring sportscar challenge) has addresssed the HP to weight ratio for the race cars, by using dyno sheets, and are hopefully going to take my advice and use a hp point somewhere below max Hp to help cars with a less advantageous curve shape. (rather than their current plan to average in max torque ...... bad bad , stupid stupid!)
the racing game!!
MK
12-15-2005, 11:16 AM
#44
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
THere's also that AV8SS series in the Midwest. You can run nearly any car that came with a V8 (928's included), the car has to weigh ~3000 lb and they use a spec Nitto R-compound tire. I think they use air restrictors to equalize any displacement differences.